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  1. #1661

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    "There is a lot happening in DDO this summer. We would like to thank you for
    participating in all the different discussions that are going on, and we are going to
    have even more very soon.

    First we would like to thank you for participating in the True Reincarntion discussion...
    we wanted to get feedback really early so the designer have time to make changes...
    ...so far the discussions have been really productive, so thank you so much for participating..."


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chyghSQajgE

    Nice to hear positive feedback and that the Devs were not intimidated by us.
    A bit short, 1:27 seconds, but that emphasizes we are busy working on the game.

    Very well spoken in an upbeat positive fashion.
    She says thank you multiple times in a nice way.

    Overall, comforting to us.

  2. #1662

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitehairguy View Post
    Is there any idea as to what happens to someone that's in the middle of a heroic TR if/when this hits?
    They shut the game down for updates so no one is hanging in thin air.

    What will actually happen after this goes live is not know as it is very early brainstorming.

  3. #1663
    Community Member Whitehairguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    They shut the game down for updates so no one is hanging in thin air.

    What will actually happen after this goes live is not know as it is very early brainstorming.
    Thank you very much for the response. Wasn't sure if a dev had mentioned anything to that point.

  4. #1664
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    Default Oh perfect. Oh perfect!

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. **(Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)**
    Oh this is totally a great idea! Make the players either (1) pay to keep their hard-earned work or (2) delete all their hard-earned work! This will definitely make the old, dedicated players thrilled!

    In a more serious tone... no that was serious. This is a stupid idea.

    (Oh and don't give us that whole "you can find the item that allows you to "bond with a destiny" in chests, cause based on past experience, if it's going to be a "pay" feature, the drop chance is going to be somewhere in the... eh I dunno, 0.015% range. So unless the plan is to make this a 5% drop chance in every chest in every quest, this entire idea is stupid. And even then, its still a terrible idea.)

  5. #1665
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    Default Refund

    How about if you implement this system you refund every dime i invested in this game since you are doing your best to make it unplayable.

  6. #1666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    "There is a lot happening in DDO this summer. We would like to thank you for
    participating in all the different discussions that are going on, and we are going to
    have even more very soon.

    First we would like to thank you for participating in the True Reincarntion discussion...
    we wanted to get feedback really early so the designer have time to make changes...
    ...so far the discussions have been really productive, so thank you so much for participating..."


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chyghSQajgE

    Nice to hear positive feedback and that the Devs were not intimidated by us.
    A bit short, 1:27 seconds, but that emphasizes we are busy working on the game.

    Very well spoken in an upbeat positive fashion.
    She says thank you multiple times in a nice way.

    Overall, comforting to us.
    My thoughts:

    #1 Separate epic / heroic tr's. If I want to just do the heroic, then I shouldn't lose all my epic destinies because they implement a new system. Likewise, maybe I want to redo the epic stuff, but absolutely never ever ever again want to touch heroic content. More flexibility is good.

    #2 Agree with other posters that essentially losing all the effort to cap epic destinies is a slap in the face....again....and still stinging from the last time....and the time before that.

    But I don't see why it's so difficult to recognize the hard work in such a way that everyone's happy (and wins). For example, how about if you do the epic tr then the trainer recognizes each sphere that you have capped all the applicable destinies and lets you select one to not have to retrain. So if you only capped the three arcane destinies (fatesinger, draconic, magister), you could select one of those to not have to relevel independent of the whole "bonded" thing. A person with all destinies capped would be saving 4 destinies overall.

    In addition, have the capping of all destinies come with it a reward similar to favor rewards (except not craptastic). Like so-and-so says "wow, you are that amazing hero xyz, please select an amazing reward from the following list for your efforts". Maybe 8 possible rewards. Say #1 being 25 superior mems, #2 being a random +4 tome, #3 being a random upgrade +4to+5 tome, #4 being the item you need to do the epic tr (or heck maybe 2 of them), etc....

    See, now all the effort put into capping isn't "lost", but the new system can go forward as planned.

    #3 There absolutely needs to be a way to keep favor (or get it back once you recap) following tr
    Thelanis:
    Annikka (Sorc), Dannikka (F), Jannikka (Rgr)
    Tamikka (Bard), Famikka (Rgr)
    Bellynda (Cl), Mellynda (M)

  7. #1667
    Community Member PsychoBlonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clemeit View Post
    Oh this is totally a great idea! Make the players either (1) pay to keep their hard-earned work or (2) delete all their hard-earned work! This will definitely make the old, dedicated players thrilled!
    I know I'll be DELIGHTED* to convert my FIFTEEN MILLION in accumulated epic destiny XP into TWELVE HEROIC LEVELS aka just under 1.2 million. TOTALLY worth it. NOT.

    Epic TR should FLAT start you off at level 20 regardless of how many epic destiny levels you have. If you THEN want to give us epic XP based on a destiny conversion, that'd be okay--I'd at least get SOMETHING for my effort to date. But "Epic TR" should be exactly that--no heroic questing required.

    *delighted in this case meaning "absolutely not delighted in any way whatsoever"
    I edited a book!

    Thelanis player: Arekkeh, Kimberlei (heroic completionist), Lehren (heroic/epic completionist), Natheme, Terpsikhore

  8. #1668
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    Since the last thing I want to do is read 84 pages of wailing and sobbing in the corner, are there any more details not listed in the OP?

    Specifically, on heroic TR: will you have to re-unlock your EDs, and will the fate points reset?

  9. #1669

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    Basically they are going back to the drawing table with this.
    So, we don't know.

    Best bet, hunt the Dev Tracker
    https://www.ddo.com/en/forums/post_t...ker=devtracker

    Just for kicks, I'll quote them all from this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.


    We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected! With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year. The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:


    • Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
    • Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
    • Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
    • Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
    • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
    • Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


    How does this system look in practice?

    Heroic True Reincarnation


    • Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
    • Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)


    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

    Iconic True Reincarnation

    That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)


    • Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
    • Earns ranks from Epic Advantage


    What else?

    Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:


    • Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
    • Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
    • Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
    • Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate


    We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.


    Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large. We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack. The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments:

    • Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
    • We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.
    • To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.
    • We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace.
    • True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

    We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
    Introduction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Please folks, feel free to express your opinions, but fighting each other and flinging insults and name-calling is not necessary.
    Fawn went to bed and things got messy in her absence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
    More of the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    I moved the heading Iconic True Reincarnation into a separate line for better clarity, as it was initially formatted in error.
    The discussion turned to questioning Cordovan editing the original post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Also, just to note that the edit was made a few minutes after the post was initially made.

    Last edited by Cordovan; 06-12-2013 at 01:50 PM.
    More of the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    Developers return from their weekend and try to restore order.

    Please note that the second paragraph, first line is should be read like thus:
    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation,
    and we understand your concern about not getting enough in return.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Cordovan earned his cookies this week, and Fawn noticed that the more she posted the more calm people seemed to be,
    so she flooded this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
    Greatly encouraging news.

    This most important part is "and other folks directly" but I will not elaborate further as I have an ancient NDA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    They do mean this.
    Will not comment further.
    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

    There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.
    Note this contains a typo replace the word "overstating" with "understating".

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi.
    Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

    We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
    • Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
    • Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
    • Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
    • Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
    • And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

    If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.

    So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

    Option 1: XP “Bank” System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

    We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.
    One of the more important ones here, and strong concession.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    One goal is to fairly reimburse time invested without promoting Epic vs. Heroic based on XP/minute.

    The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.)

    Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

    Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.


    Fate Points: An example dive into some details
    We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

    We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

    There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

    This is just one example of topics we've discussed lately. Please don't take this as an indication that we're obviously going with something that causes Destiny XP loss because we've explored this. We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything. There's quite a lot of other topics brought up internally and on this thread that matter (both to us and to you!)



    This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).
    A lot there, including a reaction to Fawn's math that one could farm 40 fate points per a life later on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Great post and thoughts, clear and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to write this us.


    Some interesting ideas.
    The main post not in this thread, it is made the Player Choice Design Thread started by famous Sig.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.
    The discussion wandered a bit here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    That's interesting, I've always personally wondered about this. Thanks for doing it and reporting the results.
    Someone reported doing a legend life w/o xp pots or repeating quests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation is defined as happening at level cap, not at level 28.

    If/when the level cap is increased beyond 28, so will the requirement. Yes, this means it's potentially quicker or easier if you do it sooner.

    That's our current thinking. This doesn't necessarily mean it will go on and on and on to level 999, but the important bit is that it's not tied to level 28.
    The discussion lead to level cap questions after Fawn insisted several times that Epic Destinies will increase to 10 and the level cap will go to 30.

    Someone else remarked that First Edition Rules allowed 99 levels for Humans, and an adventure pack actually used those levels.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chyghSQajgE

    Community Update discuses it as well.

    Also DDO Chronicle Issues 48 and 49 encourages people to read and post here.

  10. #1670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Basically they are going back to the drawing table with this.
    So, we don't know.

    Best bet, hunt the Dev Tracker
    https://www.ddo.com/en/forums/post_t...ker=devtracker

    Just for kicks, I'll quote them all from this thread:

    Snip.
    Thanks for the recap, Silver. It helps to save time finding the heart.
    http://myaccount.turbine.com

    Je ne suis pas
    DDO Alpha Tester

  11. #1671
    Community Member irnimnode's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.


    We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected! With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year. The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

    A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:


    • Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
    • Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
    • Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
    • Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
    • Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
    • Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


    How does this system look in practice?

    Heroic True Reincarnation


    • Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
    • Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)


    Epic Destiny True Reincarnation


    • Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
    • Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat
      • Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny

    • Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
    • Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
    • You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
    • Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

    Iconic True Reincarnation

    That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)


    • Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
    • Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
    • Earns ranks from Epic Advantage


    What else?

    Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:


    • Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
    • Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
    • Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
    • Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate


    We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.


    Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large. We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack. The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.

    I was noticing that you are making the iconic class's only accessible to premium accounts only In my opinion you are making it a pay to win for those with premium accounts was just wondering if turbine would make more money if they made all of the iconic class's available to everyone

  12. #1672
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    Quote Originally Posted by irnimnode View Post
    I was noticing that you are making the iconic class's only accessible to premium accounts only In my opinion you are making it a pay to win for those with premium accounts was just wondering if turbine would make more money if they made all of the iconic class's available to everyone
    Let's review:

    -Iconic classes won't be f2p.
    -Your opinion is that iconic classes are a "win", but only for premium players. Seize the moment, VIPs.
    -You're wondering if Turbine would make more money from iconics by making them available to everyone.

    Just a guess here, but I don't think they would.

  13. #1673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapco View Post
    Oh man, I just had a brilliant idea.

    How about instead of wrecking systems that aren't broken, you FIX THE ****ING BUGS YOU HAVE? Genius, I know! Seriously, after spending hundreds of thousands of plat and hundreds of shards on hirelings who just stand around doing nothing and who die with full SP; spending hours upon hours harvesting coins from idiotic games to craft handwraps only to find they've been broken for months and will never be fixed; broken hotbars; broken spells; broken crafting; broken ladders... maybe you could spend some time fixing the 80,000 open bugs! Or take 15 seconds and set up a rewrite rule for the forum 404s!

    What a joke. This is the kind of **** you start when you have 150 developers sitting around doing nothing needing work.

    Timeout on initial login. Months of "Setting to stop squirming." But hey, entering strings in a DB is boring. Let's do something fun and complicated that we can abandon halfway through!
    Amen, brother.

    I admit I get quite a few laughs from watching my divine hires beg for heals as they stand in lava, or AOEs, or traps, etc - laughing all the way up until I die, of course.

  14. #1674
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde View Post
    I know I'll be DELIGHTED* to convert my FIFTEEN MILLION in accumulated epic destiny XP into TWELVE HEROIC LEVELS aka just under 1.2 million. TOTALLY worth it. NOT.

    Epic TR should FLAT start you off at level 20 regardless of how many epic destiny levels you have. If you THEN want to give us epic XP based on a destiny conversion, that'd be okay--I'd at least get SOMETHING for my effort to date. But "Epic TR" should be exactly that--no heroic questing required.

    *delighted in this case meaning "absolutely not delighted in any way whatsoever"
    Agreed, I absolutely fail to see why you would make someone repeat content they don't want to. Epic and heroic tr's should be separate, or even better at the cost of the same item you can choose whether your epic tr is "epic only" or "heroic + epic".

    Given the very large xp needed to get from 20 to 28, there is also no reason to wipe out the destiny xp at all except in the one "bonded" destiny.
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  15. #1675
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    Why can't they just keep the two TR systems separate..?

    For Example: Epic TR'ing takes you back down to level 20 with past bonuses like Fate Twists or something..and Heroic TR'ing takes you back to 1 like it does now. Both have bonuses, heroic TR bonuses effects epic levels, but Epic TR bonuses shouldn't effect heroic levels.


    Seriously is it this difficult? Do they NEED to throw bonuses around just to "attract new players"..? What's wrong with attracting your current player base.. We're not attractive anymore?
    Last edited by zaphear; 07-09-2013 at 09:16 AM.
    Zaphear(Completionist), Lugziurious, Lugzmeat Shield, Lugzii, Lugziii, Lugzsing Measong - De Profundis

  16. #1676
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaphear View Post
    Seriously is it this difficult? Do they NEED to throw bonuses around just to "attract new players"..? What's wrong with attracting your current player base.. We're not attractive anymore?
    New blood spends more money.

  17. #1677
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    Default Thinking outside the box

    The trouble began when we split the XP and leveling into separate lines for character leveling and epic destinies. It was great for the 20-25 level expansion model, but doesn't scale well into higher levels. We're now looking for a full cap reincarnation, but epic destinies were built differently than character progression. Trying to base epic TR on the side-car XP system of epic destinies will only continue to cause problems. This will become even more apparent as you extend the cap beyond 28. But that was a business decision and is still (for the moment) a sellable item.

    I would like to emphasize THIS PROBLEM IS FIXABLE! You only have to look in a different direction for a very simple and practical solution.

    What we need is "epic TR", not "epic destiny TR". "Epic destiny TR" will only cause more headaches. Just look at the last 84 pages of rage. To achieve this you simply need to return generic epic levels back to their class levels. This will be much less painful and much easier to code than wiping ED points, bonding destinies, banking points, flagging EDs, etc... (Besides the potential bugs, it's just more complicated rules to learn.) Epic TR will also keep your players happier. This simply means getting rid of the generic "epic" class for 21+ and going to back actual classes. This means you can now go up to a level 28+ fighter, wizard, rogue, etc. instead of 20 fighter/8 epic. Multi-classes would have any classes that add up to the current level cap.

    Epic TR would have nothing to do with epic destiny. Epic destinies are sold separately, and uses its own XP slider. Like heroic TR, Epic TR would be based on dominant class (now up to 28). The Epic TR past life feats (free and feat slotted) would be greatly improved versions of the Heroic PL class based feats. Epic TR feats would replace Heroic TR feats once earned, just like Improved Evasion replaces Evasion. When a character with three heroic past life feats in the same class goes through their first Epic TR, they would now have 1 free epic past life feat and 2 free heroic past life feats, as well well as option to use a feat slot on the epic version of the purchased past life feat. Up to three epic TRs in a single class could earn three epic past life feats, each upgrading a heroic version if one existed. It's really the same thing, but its "epic"!

    Epic Destinies earned would continue to be out of play in heroic levels. All epic destiny levels earned would be available. It would for the moment remain just the same as it is now. In the future (I diverge) new levels of epic destinies can be made available say every 3-5 levels and only usable at those levels.

    This would work for everybody:

    - Epic TR with worthy percs to motivate achieving cap
    - Heroic TR unchanged
    - Epic destinies unchanged (future enhancements possible)
    - For devs, most of this code should already exist.


    I know this is buried down 84 pages, but give it some consideration. I think it would improve the game, keep players interested, and make DDO scaleable for even more level cap hikes and new content.


    Sorry! I don't want any adventures, thank you. Not Today. Good morning! But please come to tea -any time you like! Why not tomorrow? Good bye!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeMemory View Post
    Epic TR would have nothing to do with epic destiny. Epic destinies are sold separately, and uses its own XP slider. Like heroic TR, Epic TR would be based on dominant class (now up to 28). The Epic TR past life feats (free and feat slotted) would be greatly improved versions of the Heroic PL class based feats. Epic TR feats would replace Heroic TR feats once earned, just like Improved Evasion replaces Evasion. When a character with three heroic past life feats in the same class goes through their first Epic TR, they would now have 1 free epic past life feat and 2 free heroic past life feats, as well well as option to use a feat slot on the epic version of the purchased past life feat. Up to three epic TRs in a single class could earn three epic past life feats, each upgrading a heroic version if one existed. It's really the same thing, but its "epic"!

    Epic Destinies earned would continue to be out of play in heroic levels. All epic destiny levels earned would be available. It would for the moment remain just the same as it is now. In the future (I diverge) new levels of epic destinies can be made available say every 3-5 levels and only usable at those levels.

    This would work for everybody:

    - Epic TR with worthy percs to motivate achieving cap
    - Heroic TR unchanged
    - Epic destinies unchanged (future enhancements possible)
    - For devs, most of this code should already exist.


    I know this is buried down 84 pages, but give it some consideration. I think it would improve the game, keep players interested, and make DDO scaleable for even more level cap hikes and new content.

    I like the idea. i am not sure why destinies are involved at all. if people get to keep their destinies with an epic TR it's more compelling to epic TR in the first place.

    i think the design was partially a punishment mecahnism to keep people form just cycling through heroic TRs and spending little to no time @ epic levels. If they make epic TR compelling enough that alone would be enough reason to epic tr instead of heroic tr.

  19. #1679
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    Ok, here's my critique of the Epic TR system. I would have responded sooner but I thought it best to wait until I wasn't angry about the whole "losing epic destiny xp" thing.

    The build point jump:

    Frankly, this bonus is kinda worthless. It would be useful, at most, for individuals without tomes who are playing stat starved classes and builds (like paladins, monks, and some builds that require 4 decently high stats to really shine). It will only come out to providing 1 extra dex/cha/int or whatever. (or negating a penalty in an unimproved statistic)

    Epic TR feats:

    As we haven't seen an examples of what they would be I can't really comment. They'd need to be much more valuable than the passive past life feats are now though.

    Epic Destiny xp:

    Resetting epic destiny xp is not something you want to do on Epic TRing (let alone Heroic Tring). It will provide an incentive for players to avoid TRing like the black death. I didn't farm xp for EDs and I have 2 at level 4 and the rest at level 5. Of those at 5, exalted angel, grandmaster, the paladin one, shiraldi, legendary dreadnaught, primal, and Fury are all capped on xp. I enjoy this because it means as soon as I hit 20 on whatever my latest TR is I get fun toys to play with while playing through the epic content. Once I've run all the epic content I TR again so I can replay the game.

    Epic past life feats:

    The passives will no doubt be roughly equally dismal as the current ones. Some will be good and some will suck the proverbial donkey balls. Outside of bleeding edge/power gamer play, most people don't TR for the past life feats. Most of us don't even bother with the purchasable past life feats because feats are tight on most builds and we generally can't fit them in.

    Suggestions:

    Make sure there is an easy way to earn Epic TR hearts in the same way we can currently earn Heroic TR hearts. Add these token/ fragments to all Forgotten realm epic quests. I suggest naming these "Tokens of haggis" since I suggested it and it would be hilarious to trade haggis for epic TRs. (All my characters have haggis in their name somewhere). While you're at it, fix epic Gianthold so its quests actually drop tokens/fragments of the twelve.

    In order to create an incentive for people to epic TR, I suggest letting players perm buyable feats upon epic TR. This would also solve 2 other problems with TRing. Those problems are that currently, once you've got 3 past life feats under your belt for each class you gain no further bonus from additional TRs and feats are to tight on most builds to allow you to fit in your buyable past life feats. If you allow individuals to "perm" non-epic feats during TRing, really dedicated players will be rewarded by having feats become less and less tight on their builds. As for concerns that this could become overpowered, well yeah. If someone wants to do 39 epic TRs it would make sense that they would be much much more powerful than someone who hasn't epic TR'd yet (or who has only done 3 TRs.)

    Another idea, shamelessly stolen from a guildie of mine, would be to make each epic TR reduce the ML of your items by 1 or 2. If someone does 10-20 epic TRs in a row they should be allowed to use ML 20 items at level 1 if only for the comedy and drama it would create in the forum. Also, it would facilitate further TRs by that person because completely destroying content that once, many lives ago, was hard is insanely fun.

    Ya know, or you can just add a bunch of pointless grind to the game without giving the players shinies that are actually of value to general gameplay.

  20. #1680
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    I'm sorry? Where did I tell someone how they should play the game? Casuals don't need all the goodies and shouldn't have all the goodies. The system agrees with me. No more dumbing down this game so everyone can feel special.
    I fully agree with the dumbing down comment. Effectively that's a big part of this. So far as the ED's go I could care less, when I hit 20 I TR and forget the ed's, they don't matter to me to be honest as it is something I will work on at completion.

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