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  1. #1461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.

    Yes at a even worse drop rate then CITW weapons and Heroic Commendations out of there.

    I have seen more +5 upgrade tomes drop then Tomes of Fate.

  2. #1462
    Community Member Eliyse's Avatar
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    Default Epic blobbiness

    Only sampled some of the messages here, so apologies if this covers old ground.
    The basic problem is progression. If TR is set at L28, what happens when the level cap is lifted? Whatever system is designed now, it should be made with future expansion in mind. It's not as if pen and paper rules for epic didn't exist, nor other MMOs. So this suggestion about making L28 "magic" for character progression does not feel very well thought out.
    Related to that - epic levels themselves. What is the point of them? Seriously - what was the design purpose behind them? How does an epic paladin advance differently from an epic barbarian? Or an epic wizard? All classes get the same advancement, with no class specific improvements. Even the epic level icon is just a blob. All the flavour for epic advancement is in the destiny system, not in the levels. This is where the true problem lies. The emphasis has been taken away from character level (or even from character class) and into destinies, so much so that who cares about cap being raised on class levels - they are now a penalty rather than a reward.
    As a consequence, as levels and destinies were pretty much disconnected when epic content was delivered, to try to pin destinies back to levels (which is what this attempt appears to be to me) is just going to be painful to all concerned. Players (as can be seen from this board) and devs (just what will happen when you want to add more levels to 30, 33, 40, 50, beyond...) will really hate on this. That leaves the creativity people to earn their keep. I don't claim to be a creative myself, but here's my thoughts on where this could go now:
    (a) forget about new levels entirely - the future is with destinies. Content difficulty does not need to scale any higher, as L25 would be cap. New content would need to come from imaginative use of scenarios, and the introduction of new PrEs for lower level content, and new destinies to match these PrEs at the high end. Bonus with this is that if it is done well, then all the old content can be kept and effectively "freshened" by the new approaches that the new PrEs bring to the table.
    (b) don't mess with the destinies, but make the levels *worth* something. Give more feats more often. Make the feats interesting and powerful! Getting this to scale up may be challenging (the "who do we get to fight Superman *this* month" problem)
    (c) scrap the epic "blobs" altogether - allow genuine classes to take the place, so that you *can* have a L25 Paladin, or a L25 Barbarian, or a multiclass L12/13 fighter(kensaiII)/rogue(acrobatII) - and give them "epicness" as part of their progression. Say, a paladin could open up L5 spells (and heal could be included amongst them). A barbarian's DR could still increase, and automatically get overwhelming crit (or somesuch) as examples. (Though scaling up casters further could be a challenge!)
    Whatever mechanism is delivered, it needs to *reward* players for playing. Recently it feels (to me) there have been too many nerfs, and not enough giving back (e.g. you know about those poison and disease immunity abilities/items? Hah! Nearly worthless now. Timer and limit being added to FS Leap of Faith? Still costs the full 10sp though)
    Remember that players play for fun and reward. Maybe the destinies system was overgenerous and something needs to be nerfed there (I don't have enough experience at that level to judge one way or the other on this), but this feels very very harsh.

  3. #1463
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Soulless1 View Post
    Yes at a even worse drop rate then CITW weapons and Heroic Commendations out of there.

    I have seen more +5 upgrade tomes drop then Tomes of Fate.
    So you've actually seen +2 fate tomes drop there? Just looking for confirmation.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  4. #1464
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I've seen a +1 version drop in a random chest, but I've not seen or heard of a +2 dropping anywhere, whether it be random loot or either of those raids. Maybe I missed a screenshot somewhere.

    Edit: found the thread here

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...y-drop-in-game

    tracking drops and locations. I know it's a bit out of date, but there is no mention of +2 fate tomes dropping in game at all.
    I pulled a +2 tome of fate out of the fall of truth raid. My character furiously ate it. I am not sure if that was on hard or elite difficulty.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  5. #1465
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Default Devs, we are not addressing the issues

    This thread has become a mess of rage posts and ideas of unnecessarily complicated systems when the real issues are being avoided and addressed.


    Issue #1
    Current TR system incentivises TR at 20, and ignoring epic levels

    Issue #2
    Many proposed epic TR ideas ideas simply suggest epic TR at 28 rather than 20. Once again no incentive to stay and play at cap.

    Issue #3
    Players were promised ED XP would remain untouched, you can't go back on that.


    Solution #1
    Level 20 TR remains as is, players may "bank" XP earned post level 20 is used (at a discounted rate) towards heroic levels. Staying at 28 to bank enough XP to skip 1-20 incentives play at level cap.

    Solution #2
    Epic destiny TR resets level to 20, rather than level 1. If someone wants to do a heroic TR right after they are free to do so. Levels 1-20 should have NOTHING to do with ED TR.

    Solution #3
    Performing an ED TR only burns the XP for the ED that is active. When player caps this they get 2 fate points instead of 1. Player also gets an extra. 4 points to spend in the destiny.



    Epic TR uses the same heart of wood as heroic. Don't keep adding more things to buy in DDO store.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  6. #1466
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I pulled a +2 tome of fate out of the fall of truth raid. My character furiously ate it. I am not sure if that was on hard or elite difficulty.
    Good to know.

    There is something to be said for a sense of mystery around things like this, but there is also much to be gained by listing these sort of changes in release notes. When drop rates are very low, it's not so much a mystery as it is players simply having no clue they are there. A carrot isn't a carrot if players don't know it exists.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  7. #1467
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Good to know.

    There is something to be said for a sense of mystery around things like this, but there is also much to be gained by listing these sort of changes in release notes. When drop rates are very low, it's not so much a mystery as it is players simply having no clue they are there. A carrot isn't a carrot if players don't know it exists.
    Well I have run the raid about 20 or so times on epic elite and 400 or so times on epic hard and I think that was the only one I have seen so it might as well not exist.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  8. #1468
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    Default suggestion: Reincarnate into a "Follower" of your Main Character.

    As a longtime DDO and AD&D veteran the thing I'd like to see is to be able to use our alternate characters as Followers/Hirelings. Instead of Heystack and some of those other bums, it would be really awesome to build our own custom followers using our alts. Maybe we could designate a "main character" and the alts could be reincarnated into a "follower" of the Main Character and could be summoned to join the party just like a hireling. Their level could scale with the main character be be the go-to hireling for nearly all occassions.

    As someone who regularly plays with my best friend and wife - we like to run groups with just the three of us and hirelings. Something like this would be really incredible and definitely give me a reason to use my alts for something other than pack mules.

    Thanks.
    Faxandu
    Thelanis Server

  9. #1469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Well I have run the raid about 20 or so times on epic elite and 400 or so times on epic hard and I think that was the only one I have seen so it might as well not exist.
    I only have a sample size of ~100 or so completions between the two raids, and most of these completions were very early on, but I have never seen one. Logged in tonight just to ask in the chat channels where people run these raids daily to find out if perhaps my experiences were just outside of the norm. Had two people mention having seen a Tome of Fate drop in the raids before. So either the drop rate is infinitesimally small as to be insignificant, or something is amok here.

    You might want to check the implementation on this. I seem to remember that when the Harbinger of Madness chain was introduced there was some problem causing the mindfury symbiont to not actually drop when it was supposed to?
    Last edited by ForumAccess; 06-18-2013 at 08:40 PM.

  10. #1470
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    things like +2 tomes of fate are rare, just like when +4 tomes were rare at one time because there will always be the fallback reply that they do exist and we have options other than having to pay. they are rare intentionally for a time until the game grows and expands offering new highly sought after shinies, at which time the rare items eventually will have gradual higher drop rates and maybe more drop locations. this doesn't happen as long as there is a high profitable gain and can swap the gain to the next highly sought after rare item. pick a side on how you feel about this as good for Turbine for making a profit and investing some of it back into the many parts of the game thus making us grind and grind for that extremely valuable item supposedly exists but you heard from a friend of a friend of someones sisters cousin best friends aunt that thinks she pulled one, but the dog ate the screenie so no real proof.

  11. #1471
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    This thread has become a mess of rage posts and ideas of unnecessarily complicated systems when the real issues are being avoided and addressed.


    Issue #1
    Current TR system incentivises TR at 20, and ignoring epic levels
    Not really, currently you can run up an ed, tr then run up another without loss of those ed xp's. People that want to tr do so for many reasons, lack of people running "end game" has more to do with the anemic end game where we went multiple viable epic packs to farm, multiple raids with endgame gear to motu which is used for leveling, druids deep which is ignored, high road which has a few good items and egh. Instead of multiple raids worth running we have 2 and raid timer bypasses that we can buy if we want to not sit there on the airship. Add more raids and good epic content and more people would play at cap. Lack of players at cap has nothing to do with tr.
    Issue #2
    Many proposed epic TR ideas ideas simply suggest epic TR at 28 rather than 20. Once again no incentive to stay and play at cap.
    Once again the lack of staying at cap is from lack of things to do there. If there was more to do at cap there would be no difference from tr'ing back in update 13 before motu. Motu killed endgame by making there nothing to really do at cap.
    Issue #3
    Players were promised ED XP would remain untouched, you can't go back on that.
    This x100000000000000
    Solution #1
    Level 20 TR remains as is, players may "bank" XP earned post level 20 is used (at a discounted rate) towards heroic levels. Staying at 28 to bank enough XP to skip 1-20 incentives play at level cap.
    no not really, still wouldn't be anything there to do and even if there was would empty heroic levels leaving new players and trs in a wasteland with no one to play with. Banking xp and otto's stones hurt the game more than help it.
    Solution #2
    Epic destiny TR resets level to 20, rather than level 1. If someone wants to do a heroic TR right after they are free to do so. Levels 1-20 should have NOTHING to do with ED TR.
    Might be nice but overall I have to say thats not really a big issue with the etr proposal. Starting at level 1 is not a big deal especially if they come thru and smooth the xp curve so that the last few heroic levels aren't such a grind.
    Solution #3
    Performing an ED TR only burns the XP for the ED that is active. When player caps this they get 2 fate points instead of 1. Player also gets an extra. 4 points to spend in the destiny.
    This I can agree with even without the extra fate points and definately without the extra in destiny points.

    Epic TR uses the same heart of wood as heroic. Don't keep adding more things to buy in DDO store.
    As long as you can still turn in say 20 tokens or 20 whatever for a heart, and that epic hearts are the same price I think a different heart would be best. Something tells me using the same one has a higher risk of breaking something, but that's gut instinct not based on any known facts.

  12. #1472
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.
    lol


    So where has it been during my last 50 million runs in there?
    Cetus Heroic Lives: #32/32 | Epic Completionist: #20/24 | Iconic Lives: #6/6
    Cetusz - Pure Sorcerer: Heroic Lives: #24/24 | Epic Lives: #6/12 | Iconic Lives: #1/3
    YouTube Channel HERE
    Argonnessen's DEGENERATE MATTER

  13. #1473
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    So you've actually seen +2 fate tomes drop there? Just looking for confirmation.


    No I have not seen any Tomes of Fate either +1 or +2's drop out of CITW.

    I have seen two +5 upgrade tomes drop on Epic Normal during a loot weekend. I don't know if he had a loot jewel going also. It was the left side chests either chest one or two.

    The other was again a loot weekend CITW EN again left side optional chests.

    It was kind of nice that it was a Arti who pulled it and it was a +5 int upgrade. The other was a wizzy who pulled +5 con.


    I use to ask people if they pulled a Tome of Fate if they would mind holding on for a second so I could screen cap it. But alas I have never had to.

    The only time I have heard of a +2 ToF other then matt there was through the friend of a friend who totally saw someone pull it kind of deal. And yes I check out other peoples loots....I am nosy and what!?

  14. #1474

    Default Thinking outside the box...

    My new suggestion would be

    Raising the level cap to 30 and leaving it there

    Raising epic destinies to 10 and leaving them there

    Making all heroic xp the same as first life xp

    Making all epic xp levels cost 400 k each

    Therefore the xp needed to get from level 1 to level 30
    would be 1,900,000 +4,000,000 = 5,900,000
    which would be similar to the 4,378,500 required for a
    legend life since Epic XP is inflated over heroic XP

    Design brand new passive past lives for every class and every iconic.
    Label and flag these different that those currently available past lives.

    Only have a single type of TRing, that of gaining level 30,
    and TRing into a new heroic class or iconic. Iconics retain
    their bonus of +15 levels.

    When you do so you receive this brand new passive past life
    that is obtainable 3X and stacks with everything in existence.

    If a toon already has the old past lives they keep them,
    but the old past lives are no longer available after the
    creation of the new TR system along with the dramatic
    shift in xp curves.


    Also allow an Epic Passive Past life for whatever
    active maxed epic destiny the toon was in at the
    time of this new type of TRing. This past life
    could stack once or three times.

    Optional:
    Remove all XP from that Epic Destiny when the
    Epic Destiny past life is gained and reset it to zero.



    Is this what the Devs are desiring, because this
    thinks outside of the box?

    Are you wanting us to play from heroic thru to level 30?

    I am fairly confident you could level the level cap at 30
    with this in place.

  15. #1475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi.
    Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

    We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
    • Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
    • Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
    • Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
    • Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
    • And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

    If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.

    So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

    Option 1: XP “Bank” System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

    We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.
    Option 2 looks like the most flexible solution as it works for pretty much everyone.

    While I see where you seem to be coming from with the changes; making a base system that doesn't rely on grinding a lot of ED's that don't match one's current build. It really only works for those who are very involved in the game and very achievement orientated, basically players who would immediately epic TR on gaining the cap in order to achieve their planned build goals. Once all those goals are achieved, start actually playing the character.

    For anyone who plays by shorter term goals, it really leaves them with fewer options. Either TR right away regardless of whether that is what they feel like doing it. TR when the mood hits them knowing that any work on twists they have done that life will be lost. Or just don't ever TR again in order to keep that work and remain viable in the tougher end game content.

    Option 2 seems to work with any type of player by, basically, keeping ED advancement a separate system. Much like crafting levels are separate. This allows players to play the way they like without regard to how TRing in one system will effect their where they are in the others.

    What this would mean to me personally. Option 2 would let me TR the 3 characters I currently have with, what is IMO, significant work done towards acquiring fate points (the only real reason I even touch most destinies with a particular build are to get fate points or be able to get to an ED I am actually interested in and I have a hard time defining what I am doing at these time as actually playing the game-which is the basic weakness with the whole ED system). It would also let me play any others at cap until I'm in the mood to TR them again. The system originally proposed would basically mean I never TR the first 3 and always stop playing the others until I am ready to TR them because anything I do with them after that would be lost if and when they do TR.

  16. #1476

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    My new suggestion would be

    Raising the level cap to 30 and leaving it there

    Raising epic destinies to 10 and leaving them there

    Making all heroic xp the same as first life xp

    Making all epic xp levels cost 400 k each

    Therefore the xp needed to get from level 1 to level 30
    would be 1,900,000 +4,000,000 = 5,900,000
    which would be similar to the 4,378,500 required for a
    legend life since Epic XP is inflated over heroic XP

    Design brand new passive past lives for every class and every iconic.
    Label and flag these different that those currently available past lives.

    Only have a single type of TRing, that of gaining level 30,
    and TRing into a new heroic class or iconic. Iconics retain
    their bonus of +15 levels.

    When you do so you receive this brand new passive past life
    that is obtainable 3X and stacks with everything in existence.

    If a toon already has the old past lives they keep them,
    but the old past lives are no longer available after the
    creation of the new TR system along with the dramatic
    shift in xp curves.


    Also allow an Epic Passive Past life for whatever
    active maxed epic destiny the toon was in at the
    time of this new type of TRing. This past life
    could stack once or three times.

    Optional:
    Remove all XP from that Epic Destiny when the
    Epic Destiny past life is gained and reset it to zero.



    Is this what the Devs are desiring, because this
    thinks outside of the box?

    Are you wanting us to play from heroic thru to level 30?

    I am fairly confident you could level the level cap at 30
    with this in place.
    This is either very silly or very smart, I don't know which, lol...

  17. #1477

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.
    Consider allow these Epic Destiny past life feats to be obtained stackable 3x as this system would work with it.

    This allows for you to create the other 9 Iconics that we both know are coming someday.

  18. #1478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Option 2 looks like the most flexible solution as it works for pretty much everyone.

    While I see where you seem to be coming from with the changes; making a base system that doesn't rely on grinding a lot of ED's that don't match one's current build. It really only works for those who are very involved in the game and very achievement orientated, basically players who would immediately epic TR on gaining the cap in order to achieve their planned build goals. Once all those goals are achieved, start actually playing the character.

    For anyone who plays by shorter term goals, it really leaves them with fewer options. Either TR right away regardless of whether that is what they feel like doing it. TR when the mood hits them knowing that any work on twists they have done that life will be lost. Or just don't ever TR again in order to keep that work and remain viable in the tougher end game content.

    Option 2 seems to work with any type of player by, basically, keeping ED advancement a separate system. Much like crafting levels are separate. This allows players to play the way they like without regard to how TRing in one system will effect their where they are in the others.

    What this would mean to me personally. Option 2 would let me TR the 3 characters I currently have with, what is IMO, significant work done towards acquiring fate points (the only real reason I even touch most destinies with a particular build are to get fate points or be able to get to an ED I am actually interested in and I have a hard time defining what I am doing at these time as actually playing the game-which is the basic weakness with the whole ED system). It would also let me play any others at cap until I'm in the mood to TR them again. The system originally proposed would basically mean I never TR the first 3 and always stop playing the others until I am ready to TR them because anything I do with them after that would be lost if and when they do TR.
    I agree with everything you wrote. I'd also add that Option 2 falls into the KISS principle while also keeping the original sales pitch that ED XP will not be removed.

    I pretty much proposed Option 2 early on in this thread, although I had a variation of the Epic Advantage. If the Devs still want to keep/add the Epic Advantage to Option 2, when a player Epic TR, every bonded ED (or Epic Destiny past life, since the Devs seem to be moving away from the bonded ED phrase in Option 2) allows the player to skip one level in the heroic life. So after 4 Epic TRs with different EDs, the player can have the option to begin at level 4.

  19. #1479

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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    I agree with everything you wrote. I'd also add that Option 2 falls into the KISS principle while also keeping the original sales pitch that ED XP will not be removed.
    +1

  20. #1480

    Default

    If the devs have not watched this yet, please do:

    http://www.ddocast.com/2013/06/ddocast-289/

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