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  1. #1321

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

    We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.
    Thank you.

    I'll be very blunt in a polite way.


    You proposed an new system.

    I countered with if take away our epic destiny each TR, then we have the right
    to gain Fate points as normal.

    I did the math on it.

    You countered with hey you get a fate point out of control spiral.

    I agree, I broke your system in 3 days.
    I counter that you are cheating if you don't reward us fate points earned.

    Its not over, just consider what you are doing for the future.

    We both know the level cap goes to 30, we both know epic destinies are only half done.

    How do you want to implement these changes.

    The easiest smoothest transitions are to leave what is there in place.
    It has the least impact of player rage.

    But all this thinks of others, because that is what Fawn does.
    Herself, she can survive any storm you can dream up...

  2. #1322
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    I am saying that a player's choice to grind ED XP the hard way is not relevant to whether XP banking is a valid option. Your ad hominem response to my post tells me that you recognize this weakness in your argument, and you wish to divert attention away from it.
    To many of your posts in this thread come off as condescending personal attacks against other players, reported.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  3. #1323
    Community Member bbcjoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example
    I'll have you know that I'm rooting for this solution. It's actually a big incentive to TR instead of grinding an ED that has no synergy with your build.

  4. #1324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    That is acceptable.

    Why'd it take 60 pages of nerd-rage to get to this?

    This option would actually get people to level up to 28 before TRing.
    Because they started this thread just before the weekend, then went about their own lives for a couple of days.
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  5. #1325
    Community Member Oberon_Shrader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Well, yes and no. If Twists are preserved, yes. If eTR means starting at 20 (or possibly even 15 in order to simplify the iTR mechanic), then yes. If eTR means starting at 1, then a heroic PL feat should also be granted, then yes. If hTR has ZERO effect on EDXP/Twists, then yes. Failing any of those conditions, then no.
    Well, considering that Piloto said that ED XP would be preserved I assumed that fate points would as well (being linked to levels of EDs and all). I also assumed (without thinking) that a Heroic PL feat would be granted as well. That just makes sense.

    As for starting a TR at a level different than 1, I'm undecided. On the one hand, starting at 1 makes the most sense and keeps heroic levels relevant. I personally don't TR quickly and want to play those quests again. But I can also see that going back up to cap could become a huge grind for the ulta-dedicated. I never could really understand why there was a TR XP penalty to begin with: I agree with whoever said that starting over at level 1 should be enough of a penalty.

  6. #1326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    One goal is to fairly reimburse time invested without promoting Epic vs. Heroic based on XP/minute.

    The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.)

    Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

    Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.


    Fate Points: An example dive into some details
    We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

    We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

    There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

    This is just one example of topics we've discussed lately. Please don't take this as an indication that we're obviously going with something that causes Destiny XP loss because we've explored this. We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything. There's quite a lot of other topics brought up internally and on this thread that matter (both to us and to you!)



    This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).
    Vargo, you and MajMal are the only two Devs/Reps here that actually talk and interact with us. While not coming over forced or contrived. Thanks! Unfortunately the rest of the Devs/Reps talk AT (not to!) us in words that when made into a paragraph are just group of words with no clear sense of direction (or real information).

  7. #1327
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordDunmore View Post
    Noticed in guild chat this morning.

    "We seem to have lost a lot of members recently from the guild".
    "Yes. A lot of them have told me and other guildies that they have been frustrated by all the bugs and lack of quality control. Now, with the new 'proposal' of loosing Epic XP, that was the last straw.'

    I personally have not heard anyone specifically say they are leaving because of the proposed changes, but if the perception, even if 'not in stone' is there, it's causing harmful impact to the game and of course Turbine's bottom line.

    Turbine, something official needs to be done, and done soon to stop the bleeding of your player base.
    Check out DDOracle for server traffic since this announcement. I don't think this announcement has had much of an impact on the current game environment. And quarterly, it looks like server traffic is actually up a notch over the last three months. I wouldn't cry doom and gloom over a few anecdotal incidents.

  8. #1328
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    Your assertion appears to be that others' play styles lack relevance. I have simply given an example based on personal experience which is mirrored by no small number of players. That's why your assertion is incorrect. The fact that we are being given a choice between two unwanted and unneeded game mechanics changes is no choice at all.

    edit: oh, and let me say, there are several reasons to NOT co-ordinate a heroic class with the desired eTR epic destiny. Twisted abilities being the most obvious. Again, it seems wasteful and counter productive to have to reach lvl 28, max an unwanted destiny, AND spend all that time in an unwanted class, just to gain a locked in destiny from which to twist in one or two wanted abilities. It's Chewbacca.
    As I clarified in another response, my assertion is that a player's decision to do something the hard way is not relevant to whether the XP bank is a viable solution.
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  9. #1329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    To many of your posts in this thread come off as condescending personal attacks against other players, reported.
    This is how you perceive them? I will review my posts in context with this in mind. Thank you for pointing this out.


    EDIT: Perhaps I am getting curt. Time for me to get some sleep. My apologies for any personal offense.
    Last edited by Tscheuss; 06-18-2013 at 01:07 AM.
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  10. #1330

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs.
    Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

    I am out there, and about half of the serious players I know have at least one toon well on their way to max epic destinies.


    Be careful with demographics in this case.

    I have 41 toons at the moment.
    One of them has max epic destinies.
    So your charts might say 1 in 41, but I
    see one player with a toon that has max epic destinies.

  11. #1331

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.
    "God help the outcasts hungry from birth...

    ...I can get by...."


    You have no idea how much rage any other proposal will cause.

  12. #1332

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.
    This is very reassuring. The proposals in the OP and the first follow-up were so disheartening because they killed the ability to break up earning destinies with reincarnation.

    I don't think I'm alone in only taking "off" destinies to 3 or 4 for fate points, which caps your max at 4/2/1. This means 10 off destinies to 1,080,000 each, which in my book is pretty heavily invested. (10.8 million xp = 460 rusted blades runs for me, every moment of which is painful.) I would never dream of taking an off destiny to tier 5 for fate points; that extra half million simply isn't worth it.




    A few thoughts:

    - Leveling through the heroic levels -- all of them, 1 to 20 -- is super fun.
    - Grinding destinies is no fun, it's a "hold your nose and get through it so you can get back to having fun" kind of deal.
    - If I could level off destinies while my preferred destiny is active, grinding destinies would immediately go from unfun chore to super fun playtime that I looked forward to, much like I look forward to heroic tring.
    - Infinite fate points isn't a problem; they are naturally capped at 4/4/4, and the epic amount of grinding needed for 4/4/4 is on par with completionist. I'd never do completionist or 4/4/4, but my vote is to add the ability to get to 4/4/4. Let the hardcores have their fun.

  13. #1333
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.
    After thinking about, I actually kind of like this idea. It preserves the idea that TRs can go back to level 1 to group with others at that level and doesn't completely hose those of us who spent so much time earning EDs which we were promised we would be able to keep upon TRing.

    The only issue I see is the same as the current issue with TRing. Most servers have a dedicated TR channel. They are an elitist crowd. They have a 2 level range on what they run. They only run elite. They ditch players who don't hold their weight and don't take time to explain things to new players. Now let me temper this by saying this does not include everyone who TRs so I am not speaking categorically. But the problem as it currently exists is that there are too many penalties for grouping with someone new to the game for an experienced multi-life player to even want to consider it. Maybe it is time to take a second look at things like death penalties (maybe just remove the +10% for 0 deaths; it's not like we can't get loads of XP already). Maybe reconsider max levels and how bravery bonuses are calculated (as much as I love bravery bonuses, I think it has been a detriment to the PUG scene). Find some ways to encourage TRs to group with new players and that will really strengthen the game in ways adding new content cannot.

  14. #1334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Are you planning on raising the level of epic destinies to level 10 now or later?

    Be careful you don't paint yourself into another corner.
    But letting a few folks have an immediate advantage then other who
    wait miss out.

    I would advise you do it in conjunction with this, but others might disagree.


    If you are not planning on raising the level to 10, then just open a toon like
    mine with all epic destinies done, and look -- see its a ghost town there.
    Plenty of room for double points spent.

    Also, caster level = epic destiny level = +5
    So level cap goes to 30 within two years, then you cannot level caster level at 25?

    So by my reckoning, it has to increase to 10 to max the probably 30 character levels
    we will see soon.

    But if you do it now at the same time, then suddenly no one has maxed epic
    destinies, and although some might max out three or so before ETRing, most
    will not max out everything for obvious reasons.

    Therefore, in these cases, the XP Bank situations trigger as being important,
    particularly since you rightly so don't want to carry over fate points.
    This. Thank you for stating what I wanted to more clearly than I could.

  15. #1335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).
    I very much agree, Keeping it simple is a good plan. Which is why you should not bundle Heroic TR and Epic TR at all.

    - Heroic TR: Exactly the way it is now.
    - Epic TR: Give an epic past life but _not_ a heroic past life. Reset epic xp so you go back to level 20 and reset the ED xp in the destiny being bound but not in any other ED. Do not allow any changing of heroic classes (if you want to change classes you need to heroic TR or LR+x).

    That way people can play 1-20 and Heroic TR if they want (gaining heroic past lives) _or_ play 20-28 and Epic TR (gaining epic past lives) _or_ play 1-28 and Epic TR followed immediately by a Heroic TR (gaining both heroic and epic past lives).

    Nice, clean and simple. Nothing hard to code, no loop holes and maximum flexibility letting the players use the content they want in the order they want making everyone happy. Oh, and not a single issue with grandfathering in any past accomplicements.

    I consider this a tripple win and really cannot figure out why you want to complicate matters when you know that more complex isnt a good idea.

    Edit: Iconic TR can be figured out once the basic concerns of heroic and epic TR are covered.
    Last edited by mikarddo; 06-18-2013 at 01:30 AM.

  16. #1336

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).
    Hey, I want the time that would be spent on epic disadvantage and the resulting
    game breaking broken addtions to appease the public instead spent on reviewing
    the outdate past life feats.


    I am serious, in order to appease the kind of rage you are generating you will have
    to implement stuff that will result in way over powered characters which will result
    in the game becoming messed up and nerfs needed which will result in more
    rage as the rage spirals out of control....

  17. #1337

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikarddo View Post
    I very much agree, Keeping it simple is a good plan. Which is why you should not bundle Heroic TR and Epic TR at all.

    - Heroic TR: Exactly the way it is now.
    - Epic TR: Give an epic past life but _not_ a heroic past life. Reset epic xp so you go back to level 20 and reset the ED xp in the destiny being bound but not in any other ED. Do not allow any changing of heroic classes (if you want to change classes you need to heroic TR or LR+x).

    That way people can play 1-20 and Heroic TR if they want (gaining heroic past lives) _or_ play 20-28 and Epic TR (gaining epic past lives) _or_ play 1-28 and Epic TR followed immediately by a Heroic TR (gaining both heroic and epic past lives).

    Nice, clean and simple. Nothing hard to code, no loop holes and maximum flexibility letting the players use the content they want in the order they want making everyone happy. Oh, and not a single issue with grandfathering in any past accomplicements.

    I consider this a tripple win and really cannot figure out why you want to complicate matters when you know that more complex isnt a good idea.
    You are leaving out iconic TRing.

  18. #1338
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Why not just have us lose all exp in JUST the ED we have primary at moment of epic TR... and then increase the xp needed to cap that destiny to 3 million? Leave all other EDs alone. Even okay to lose the 5 ranks of fate points from that ONE ED as well.

    That will still give people plenty of TRing to do, since they will have to relevel to 28 each time...

    You don't need to make us redo ED grinding... Just going from 1-28 is a lot of work (Don't worry about the guys who will do all 11 in 3 weeks - you can't possibly keep up with them).
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  19. #1339

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything.
    Keep trying on the hats, and keep talking to us early.

    Pardon our pitchforks and torches and let them be sign of caring deeply about this grand game.

  20. #1340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    You are leaving out iconic TRing.
    Thats on purpose. Fix the two most immediate concerns first - than add in Iconics once the basics are clear.

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