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  1. #1281
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    Default Exp earned in one destiny, spent in another

    I would like to throw this idea out again to see if it can get more traction. I would very much like to see some way to be in a capped tree and use that tree while unlocking twists and earning fate points from other trees. Certain class/race combinations are absolutely crippled in specific EDs (Adamantine Body WF FVS face grinding uncentered through Grandmaster of Flowers) and significantly negatively effects the play experience. The best way I could think of implementing it would be to add a "gaining exp" button to the ED trees and an active destiny for the one you are gaining the abilities of.

  2. #1282
    Community Member Lauf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    The drive to 20 is FAR less painful and Far more enjoyable than maxing out 5 EDs, especially since to max 5 you are pretty much guaranteed to have gone through a couple HORRIBLE ones to get to where you are going. It's not a good trade off, period. If you insist on this path I do however agree that a one time grandfathering of all existing maxed out EDs is critical or you totally kill ETR for everyone who has been running epic for the last year.
    This.

    Epic xp is epic xp. Even after reading this thread I still fail to see the connection you are trying to make between the epic xp and the heroic one. heroic xp is currently part of a natural progression of building a character, while epic xp is detached of your current build, and most commonly used to unlock a tree that *would* be beneficial.

    what's my point? your design suggests takes epic xp, namely "grinding through a couple of HORRIBLE ones to get to where you want to go" and instead replacing it with heroic xp, usually gained by playing a build that we as players believe would be enjoyable to play (or we would have rolled a different build). this also results in forcing us to once again "grind through a couple of HORRIBLE ones to get to where we want to go"

    and this for me is the major flaw of the trade. it's not about the amounts of xp granted in return, it's about forcing us to replay through destinies we hoped never to have to replay through ever again.

    also, as was written before me :
    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    I can't earn ED by grinding more content while I'm at L19, why should it work the other way around?
    should you opt to go with an xp bank option for compensation, I urge you to make that xp bank available only while in epic levels, and grant epic xp only. epic xp was removed, epic xp will be granted. fair is fair.

    personally, I would prefer a one time grandfathering of all existing maxed out EDs, but an epic xp bank is also a fair compensation.

    heroic xp bank makes no sense to me.

  3. #1283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The sudden "out in force" response is interesting, safe to say you guys have heard how disenfranchised many DDO forum goers feel lately.

    I'd really like to see something similar with the Enhancement pass post alpha... The angst over this Epic TR issue is concentrated on one focal point (losing hard earned ED's)... the Pass has so many focal points so many things going on that I feel despite appearances, that the "angst" over it was actually bigger, and more unanimous, but it was "Protector sucks", "lack of cleric domains sucks" and "Spell singer temp SP procs sucks" and "Having to use a shield to get anything from DOS/Stalwart sucks" and etc over almost every tree.

    TR'ing is a big part of the game for many, but for me personally (and I'm sure some significant portion of the player base) it's character builds I don't have the time for TR's. For that reason the Pass is more important to me personally... Would love to see some similar dialog... not just statements but dialog in the beta phase.

    Like you guys know that 2 small changes and almost no builds would "break" right? AP spent in tree change back to AP spent overall (as live), and take all the old "generic" enhancement lines and put them in the generic tree, instead of splitting them up arbitrarily into PrE trees. The key word is arbitrary... Arbitrary is almost always bad if there's an alternative, and a fourth "basic enhancement tree" is an easy alternative.

    Sorry for the derail but being honest I'm a little jealous of the response TR'ing has gotten compared to the overwhelming silence of the post-Alpha enhancement pass.
    This.

    From what I have heard in game lately, there is a fair amount of discontent over the dual issues of 1) the pending enhancement pass and 2) loss of Epic Destiny XP on any kind of TR.

    There are some people on these forums who attempt to wave their hands and simplistically attribute it to "people are afraid of change." A far better assessment is that people have spent a substantial amount of time developing their toons, and they dislike the idea of having all that time spent invalidated.

    Frankly, invalidating all that time spent is an open invitation to the affected people to look at options other than DDO. If that is one of the design goals of the development team, then it is succeeding. If not, the development team needs to increase its focus on preserving that time investment as a means of retaining the existing player base.

  4. #1284
    Community Member MarcusCleardawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    ....

    Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

    Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.

    ....
    ).
    Props Vargouille. This is a wonderful disclosure that sheds light on some of the motivation for the nuking xp posited in the original OP.

    It seems that you have as a goal Epic TR as creating an Epic Experience for Heroic Experience exchange. That's the only way that running an additional 8 levels of content would allow efficient earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Now whether that exchange is based upon exchanging Destiny experience for heroic experience, or giving credit for a past life based on a maxed "off destiny" I leave to you. I think this is a bad idea because the proposals seems to end up with someone taking a new class and immediately leveling up to the high teens or even 20 without learning a darned thing about the class. Do you really think it will make a good play experience to throw people that far into the deep end?

    With respect to Piloto:
    I appreciate your response about the goals of the new TR system, but with all due respect, I sincerely doubt there is anything in your code that requires you to nuke Epic Destiny Experience to:

    • Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
    • Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
    • Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.

    As for maximizing good play experience, it seems we just disagree. I find absolutely nothing fun about running epic content "off destiny" that is to say being in a destiny that isn't appropriate to my class but necessary for grinding Fate Points or unlocking adjacent destinies more appropriate to my class. Doubly unfun if all that work gets nuked after it was stated it was permanent.

    As for providing incentives for players to concentrate on different destinies than their most recent past life, how are we to accomplish this? Are you getting rid of the requirement to grind through and unlock adjacent destinies? Or are we just supposed to buy keys every life? Or are you allowing the newly minted 20 the opportunity to select a new destiny?

    Seriously, I appreciate the response even if we are miles apart on this.

  5. #1285
    Community Member UurlockYgmeov's Avatar
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    Default Props (SO FAR)

    to Turbine for establishing open communication PRIOR to things being set in stone (other than something IS coming)

    to Players for keeping this thread healthy and positive; I don't see trolling or flaming and MANY constructive thoughts and ideas. Kudos!

    I see the one time (first time) bonding of all maxed ED an excellent incentive to translate.

    Am concerned that there are some rumors floating around that existing past life feats (passive) might be changed in this. Many I would hope aren't - but if there is an intent - please keep the dialog open and allow the community to have its input prior to solidifying changes.

    As far as other places of concern - thank you for saying that. Wish there was this level of communication is at least one other thread (which I will not name) of personal concern (which affects all).

  6. #1286
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers...
    Indeed. And I for one am very glad to see Turbine folks stepping up to the plate and engaging the community. I've been a long-time DevTracker lurker and like the increased level of engagement y'all are making.

    There's a lot of angst. Things are changing, and the limited information to date has some concerned. OTOH, Turbine's track record when it comes to community engagement and responsiveness to feedback gives many good reason for pause. "Past performance is no indicator of future performance" ...but that's how the smart money bets. And the recent Enhancement alpha may have been intentionally forced towards single-class to gather data, but that slant wasn't well communicated, known and received. If the next Enhancement pass is less restrictive you'll earn a lot of ears willing to hear you out (and conversely, if it's not appreciably better in key ways, the soldiers of DOOM! will be more firmly entrenched, and their ranks will swell).

    Take the calls of DOOM! with a large grain of salt (as should many on these forums...) and be patient. Turbine's rep has a certain...aroma. It takes time to change that. (If indeed that's that case)

    And remember, it's the internet. Grow some trollhide, pit up some extra Toughness feats and get used to the calls of DOOM! DOOM I SAY! outmassing the rest by 10-1 (at least).

    -- DrusTheAxe

    P.S. I like the intended changes to LR and the XP curves. Undecided about the ED changes, but I'm more of a heroic player than epic so I'm less knowledgeable and less vested at that end of the scale than others.

  7. #1287
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Heres my solution:

    Keep the heroic and epic TR systems segregated

    The use of an existing heart allows a level 20 and above character to start at level 1 and receive the appropriate past life for their previous class. Just like it works today. All epic destiny xp is retained.

    The use of an EPIC heart allows a capped (level 28) character to start as a level 20 character and receives a past life for the destiny they bound upon reincarnation. All XP for that bound destiny is lost, and needs to be earned again. All unbound destiny xp REMAINS.

    This character does NOT earn a heroic past life for their class, they only earn the epic past life.

    Leave the XP curves the way they are. Grinding from level 20-->28 should be a long path, especially with only 10 new quests.

    This is the simplest method I can think of that keeps everyone happy.

    Finally make the heroic completionist and epic completionist feats FREE. This places all classes regardless of feat availability on an even playing field - and gives progression opportunities to everyone.

    Additionally, this system has nothing to do with fate points. Your fate points are earned based on total destiny level, as it works now. New destiny's disable completionist just as a new class disables heroic completionist. Earning this new destiny, binding it, and Epic TR'ing regrants your completionist and also gives you extra fate points from grinding that new destiny out.

    Simple.
    Last edited by Cetus; 06-17-2013 at 10:28 PM.
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  8. #1288

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Fate Points: An example dive into some details
    We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

    We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

    There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).
    I agree if you let Fate Points build up then you are going to cause a max grind situations
    of the best thing to do is grind out every epic destiny then bind one, and so forth.
    Not really desirable. One could easily start grinding out 40 fate points a life,
    if the level cap on epic destinies goes to 10 (and we both know it will).

    I agree there could be bug problems, TRing is the last ditch fix for a toon,
    so TR will need to be streamline as is its nature.


    I am willing to comprise by placing fate point bonuses on epic destiny past lives,
    then resetting the fate points each life. However this needs to be a significant number.
    You need to decide where you plan to cap epic destiny levels (10?) then make it something
    like 10 fate points per epic destinies as I suggested before.

    Or lets look at number here: Total of available epic destiny levels (10) divided by 3 = 3.33
    times 2ish cause we might cap two instead of one =7ish plus a one time earnable bonus
    cause you want us to be happy and you can afford to be generous as long as we cannot
    spiral it out of control = ?

    Remember you are no longer expecting us to max all our epic destinies out, which
    was previously the only way to have fate points.

    The Cookie Monster Fate Math Machine chews up Fate Points like nobodies business,
    and I highly recommend allowing some upgrade on the Twists by granting us two
    or three more twist slots.

    4 / 4 / 4 / 4 / 4 twists requires
    10 / 14 / 18 / 22 / 26 = 90 fate points

    An epic completionist under this formula would have 110 fate points before
    earning the typical 3+ twist potential from normal epic destiny levels.

    If you add an extra twist slot a bonus for epic completionist (highly recommended)
    if would require 30 fate points to fill up (for a total of 120 fate points needed).

    So, this formula would work fairly close imho.

  9. #1289

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Option 1: XP “Bank” System
    When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).
    Ok, I'll take that if you can program it, I am game.

    One time bonus of three bond ED would be appreciated.
    Last edited by Silverleafeon; 06-17-2013 at 10:35 PM.

  10. #1290

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

    Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

    ~Erik
    @producerglin
    A sincere thank you.

  11. #1291
    Community Member TorkRaider's Avatar
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    I still believe that Turbine reneging on its promise ** that ED leveling would not be wiped out upon TRing ** is a very bad plan, with very negative repercussions if implemented. However, I also think the discussions proposing either compensation or an alternative are valuable. To that end, here’s my suggested approach to compensate players who bought access to EDs, Key(s) of Destiny, Tome(s) of Fate and time spent leveling EDS in exchange for the wiping of ED XP upon ETR goes as follows:

    1. Each character may bind up to 3 maxed EDs earned prior to conversion (U20) prior to ETRing. If a character has two maxed EDs they can bind both. If a character has 11 maxed EDs they could bind any 3 (but only three) they chose.

    2. After the first TR a character may only bind 1 additional ED each ETR.

    3. Any unbound Destinies would be subject to having the XP wiped when (if) they ETR.

    4. Any Tomes of Fate used by a character would be retained after ETR.

    5. For each Destiny maxed over 3, each character will receive 1 BTA Stone of XP to assist with ETRing that character. For example a character with 6 maxed EDs would bind 3 and receive 3 BTA Stones of XP. BTA status would let a player choose to use the Stone on that character or transfer it to another in their stable but would not allow the sale or transfer to other players.

    6. All unlocked Destinies opened by a character would be retained regardless of whether they were unlocked with a Key of Destiny or via previously leveling a destiny. This would allow a ETRing character to more easily level a complementary ED on their next life. These changes would give characters the flexibility to switch between a few key destinies when needed and have access to some twists while leveling epics. 3 bound destinies would provide 5 fate points plus possibly 1 or 2 more if they’ve purchased a Tome of Fate giving them access to 3 Level 1 twists or 1 level 3 twist to help with their leveling. Lastly a player can choose whether to accelerate the ETR process.

    Lastly I also agree with others that a Heroic TRs should not, in any way, affect or reset EDs but I do believe that the community as a whole by ETRs running at least some of the first 1-20 levels and so should start their TR at Level 1 even if they eventually use a Stone of XP to skip levels.

  12. #1292
    Community Member Superhanns's Avatar
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    Default Might aswell just fix what isent broken.

    From a neutral point of view it looks ok, more options is always fun after all nobody is going to be forced to do it if they dont like it, new players might love it, they seem to really enjoy the current bladeforged so tr options there probably would be cool.

    From a personal point of view it is bad, just got out completionist over 3 years and start to enjoy the fruits of my labour and then more tr options might come so now i got to do them now if i want my char optimal? how exhausting.. just reading it makes me uncomfortable, maybe im just burned out because its just putting nails in the coffin for me sadly instead of being able to enjoy what i earned already.

    38 point builds? No thanks - already solo epic elite as it is, don't need more power don't want it. (yep probably in the minority here and thats fine)

    while im at it and since a dev is likely to read it, im premium so the following isent biased, how about giving VIP's a break instead of charging them for expansions? they supoort you monthly as it is, ive already lost friends in game because of that and some stayed and barely play now because of it, i suppose this is going to happen with the next expansion, its not cool in my opinion, my voice is for them nothing more.
    Completionist clonk on argonnessen.

  13. #1293

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    Quote Originally Posted by TorkRaider View Post
    All unlocked Destinies opened by a character would be retained regardless of whether they were unlocked with a Key of Destiny or via previously leveling a destiny.
    Aye

    Or compromise ~ remove unlocking maps mechanic.

    I don't mind if I don't get my TP points from keys back, but others might.

  14. #1294
    Founder noneill's Avatar
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    One thing I forgot to mention in my last post:
    Even though we want you to take your time developing this, we do need more info as soon as possible.
    The OP pretty much stated ED XP will be wiped out on TR of any kind. So we know the downside. The upside of the PL feats is an unknown at this point. Until we know if option 1 or option 2 (or 3 or 4) is the way you are going, players will feel like they should put ED xp on hold. Which of course is not good, people who stop playing to get ED xp might just do regular TR's or they may take a break and then not come back.
    It is great that you started the dialogue so early but bad that you delineated the downside right from the start. Might have been better to say we are working on it, what do you think is a fair price to pay for ETRing? Now though you have us all in an uproar and wondering if all we did was for nothing and if we should bother playing until you sort it out.
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  15. #1295
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    ...

    BTW, the many reason that Option 1 won't sit well with many people is because the XP can only be used in Heroic levels. That doesn't help the majority of players who find grinding EDs that don't work with their class/builds very, very unfun. Heavy armored players grinding through GMoF sucks. Casters grinding through the Martial sphere sucks. Melees grinding through most of the caster EDs sucks. Ranged players grinding through practically everything but Shiradi sucks.
    When you TR, you may choose to plan your class and ED so they work well together; therefore, this aspect of your argument lacks relevance.
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  16. #1296
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    Quote Originally Posted by CorinBrightbane View Post
    Agreed. Or 3x completionists with all Ed capped. It would be nice not to grind out some of the lives I didn't enjoy that much just to get the epic completionist. As they have already been done, multiple times. It would be a shame for those of us who have done this to have to play 20 levels that are not earning anything for us....just to play a few levels to get an epic destiny past life.

    Perhaps something in the way of if you have 3 past lives already you get to start at level 20 in the tr as that class.

    I have no trouble with people starting at 1 and earning heroic and epic past lives. It's just too tough to imagine all the time put into already earning the heroic past lives as essentially wasted from an xp earning standpoint.

    As of now...definitely option 2
    There will be 4 Iconic options with available PL's that stack X3. These also start at level 15. TR runs with these will get you up to 12 Iconic PL's and all (currently) 11 ED PL's without re-running any of the heroic classes.
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  17. #1297
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noneill View Post
    One thing I forgot to mention in my last post:
    Even though we want you to take your time developing this, we do need more info as soon as possible.
    The OP pretty much stated ED XP will be wiped out on TR of any kind. So we know the downside. The upside of the PL feats is an unknown at this point. Until we know if option 1 or option 2 (or 3 or 4) is the way you are going, players will feel like they should put ED xp on hold. Which of course is not good, people who stop playing to get ED xp might just do regular TR's or they may take a break and then not come back.
    It is great that you started the dialogue so early but bad that you delineated the downside right from the start. Might have been better to say we are working on it, what do you think is a fair price to pay for ETRing? Now though you have us all in an uproar and wondering if all we did was for nothing and if we should bother playing until you sort it out.
    That's half of it, for sure. The other half is that this is a Game Mechanics Change. Changing game mechanics is a terrible idea for any game, in any stage of its life. It seems that Turbine has lost its fear of changing game mechanics though, they are doing it more frequently and with less regard for the consequences.

    I think we can all agree that we'd prefer a stable game mechanic, more work on fixing bugs, more new content. If we're going to be forced to relearn the game every year, we'd rather just switch games altogether.

    That was kindof off topic though...

    Here's another reason Option 1 is no good, and why xp reset should ONLY occur on the maxed/flagged/selected/active destiny:

    It take 3Mxp to cap from 20 to the current 25cap. Let's generously assume that it will be 6Mxp when the cap raises to 28. 6Mxp represents 3 capped Destinies. So running that content, earning that xp, then giving it up PLUS losing 2 destinies is not commensurate with the gain of one ED past life feat. It forces us to consider NOT having an uncapped destiny active while levelling, since any xp gained in it (in THEM actually, remember 4Mxp wasted!), will be lost anyways. And if we're not gaining usable xp, then why run in that state? In otherwords why eTR?

    Now, that sounds hypocritical of me, since I'd advocate end-game content that wasn't xp-focused... but if the goal is provide replayability, time-sink, and a past life feat, then throwing out xp is counter productive.

    Also, we really need to know what form the PL feat is going to take. At this point, with so many feat starved (or feat-maxed) builds, it NEEDS to be a 'granted' feat, not something we need to spend an epic feat selection on.

  18. #1298
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    blah blah blah
    Why do you have to keep adding systems to an already overburdened engine? Every time a new system is put in place, it breaks half a dozen other things. Not to mention all the half-finished and abandoned systems we already have. How many crafting systems do we have? How many are actually finished? How many do we NEED? How many different types of ingredients are there? It's ridiculous.

    How about just adding some much needed new content instead of another treadmill to make people re-run the same old stuff? The last "real" update (I don't count 18, because that stuff is just an awful ad for the next "expansion") was just a re-hash of years old content (gianthold).

  19. #1299
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    When you TR, you may choose to plan your class and ED so they work well together; therefore, this aspect of your argument lacks relevance.
    Absolutely incorrect. I would most certainly NOT plan to eTR into some unknown class for some unwanted unneeded heroic past life feat if my intention was to gain a wanted needed planned for epic PL feat. Again why hTR needs to be separate from eTR.

  20. #1300

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    Are you planning on raising the level of epic destinies to level 10 now or later?

    Be careful you don't paint yourself into another corner.
    But letting a few folks have an immediate advantage then other who
    wait miss out.

    I would advise you do it in conjunction with this, but others might disagree.


    If you are not planning on raising the level to 10, then just open a toon like
    mine with all epic destinies done, and look -- see its a ghost town there.
    Plenty of room for double points spent.

    Also, caster level = epic destiny level = +5
    So level cap goes to 30 within two years, then you cannot level caster level at 25?

    So by my reckoning, it has to increase to 10 to max the probably 30 character levels
    we will see soon.

    But if you do it now at the same time, then suddenly no one has maxed epic
    destinies, and although some might max out three or so before ETRing, most
    will not max out everything for obvious reasons.

    Therefore, in these cases, the XP Bank situations trigger as being important,
    particularly since you rightly so don't want to carry over fate points.

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