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  1. #1121
    Community Member Lycurgus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    I think it's important to know what the devs goals are for this new system.
    Just speculating, but it seems possible that the goal of thenew system is to improve player retention and is based upon the assumption thatdeclines in player retention are due to player boredom at cap. Regrinding epicdestinies in an epic TR system has the same smell as the Eveningstar challengelottery, meant to be a huge time sink that keeps players on a treadmill.Unfortunately, that isn’t something they could admit on a public forum even ifit were true.



  2. #1122
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycurgus View Post
    Just speculating, but it seems possible that the goal of thenew system is to improve player retention and is based upon the assumption thatdeclines in player retention are due to player boredom at cap. Regrinding epicdestinies in an epic TR system has the same smell as the Eveningstar challengelottery, meant to be a huge time sink that keeps players on a treadmill.Unfortunately, that isn’t something they could admit on a public forum even ifit were true.
    I really hope their overall goal is player retention. Any other goal seems counter productive from a making money point of view. That should be a goal of all implemented systems and game updates. Any system or update that threatens to lose income from lost players faster than the increased income from retained players should obviously be retooled (if resources are available) or scrapped (if there are not enough resources to fix it).

    From a pure cash income point of view, the loss of players who aren't spending any money is of no consequence. What is often lost in the calculation is the negative PR that goes along with losing players, whether or not they cause any direct profit loss.
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  3. #1123
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    Default Where to stick Epic Completionist

    Absolutely dreadful ideas.

    First implement the 38 point build for existing completionists.
    Make the completionist feat PASSIVE so it can fit into any class or build.
    Improve the existing past life feats, some are really lame.

    Epic Completionist. No one is going to want to grind out destinies over and over. Even a completionist.

    In my opinion, enhance existing completionist track which naturally explores all aspects(classes) of the game, and lose the Epic completionist idea.

    Yambu. Completionist. Cannith.

  4. #1124
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Nice, I see you have been giving it some thought.

    I particularly like the one for Shadowdancer.

    Fury is a little limited, though. As proposed, ED PL's are stackable X3.
    Maybe a new type of Vorpal for epic levels?
    Heroic Vorpal only adds 100 hp dmg on mobs with 1000+ HP
    First Fury PL grants Epic Vorpal while raging - +200 hp dmg on mobs with 2000+ HP
    Second grants Epic Vorpal while raging - +300 hp dmg on mobs with 3000+ HP
    Third grants Epic Vorpal while raging - +400 hp dmg on mobs with 4000+ HP
    In short, Fury PL grants Epic Vorpal, which gives +1000 to max Vorpal cap and +100 to damage done to mobs with HP over cap.

    It has been a while since I have run epics, so numbers may need to be adjusted to be appropriate for epic mob HP levels.
    What do you think?
    I think it doesn't matter, the rest of the changes are so bad that past life feats are completely unimportant at this point. Who cares what the feats are when I've talked to people I know that play and out of people I've talked 90% will quit the game from the other changes. It's like complaining you've got a paper cut while looking up at a nuke falling on your head.

  5. #1125
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    Default Redo completionist +

    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Well to be fair, they are offering twice the benefit. Heroic past life and Destiny past life. It's the destiny removal that's the issue here. You are gaining a double benefit, but the cost is just way too high initially.

    I realize this is a smaller percentage of the player base. But I'm curious what the Dev's have in mind here. I've read a bunch of this thread but not all....as it gets a little depressing to read some of it. My question is this.

    Are past life tr's wasted when the new system comes out. If I can level and get a heroic past life and an epic past life feat why would I tr now? I'm on life 30 and it seems wasteful to tr again now. Yes I have all Ed's maxed as well.


    i agree with what are the goals. Heroic tr is 1-20. Why does epic tr involve destinies. Why not have a destiny tr for destinies.....sets your active destiny to 0, and epic tr be just that....tr your epic levels...I.e 20-28

    I for one don't have an interest in playing 1-28 thirty more times......
    Cor, Tell, Kora, Corkal, Mordeci, Corin, and a few others.
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  6. #1126

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    Devs, I think I know why you're wanting to wipe destiny xp: Because once a character maxes their destinies, if that xp is retained on TR they have NOTHING to keep playing for in terms of xp goals.

    There is a solution to address this that should achieve the goals you want while not also alienating your playerbase. It's been mentioned several times already in this thread, but worth repeating:

    An epic tr wipes the currently active maxed destiny, leaving the other destinies untouched. This epic tr grants a free passive past life feat based on the destiny you just wiped. (Where you actually start the next life: level 1, level 20, or somewhere in between, is less of an issue for both players and devs.)

    This alternative to the dev proposal still gives incentive for veteran grinders to re-grind all 11 destinies over 11 lives. It's important to note that the dev-proposed system, where all unbonded destinies get reset each tr, has the exact same development goal: incentive to re-grind all 11 destinies over 11 lives. So this alternative gives the same amount of "new treadmill", it just does it in a way that won't also give HUGE incentive to never tr again, as the dev proposal does.

    Additionally, does the dev proposal incentivize epic tring the same destiny more than once? This alternative proposal does, in the form of stacking 3x passive past life feats just like heroic tr. That's 11x3 or 33 more lives to completely max out your destiny past lives. It seems to me that the dev proposal CAN'T match this amount of new treadmill because as I read it, after 11 epic trs you literally cannot epic tr a 12th time since you no longer have an unbonded destiny to epic tr.

    While it's arrogant to ask, I would love a dev response to this particular idea. It doesn't have to be my post; many people have offered up the same (or very similar) idea. It seems to me that it both a) achieves the devs' design goals, and b) answers the core objection of the players.

  7. #1127
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Default Future of DDO: level from1-28 over and over?

    Why is there so much focus on re-rolling to get an increase in power? Are the future plans for DDO always going to have a focus on TR grinding?


    Cordovan and Glin: can you guys work on a system that lets capped players collect TR benefits?



    i don't want to reroll my character, leave my friends behind, and play classes i don't even like to increase in power. At least the Everquest AA system allowed you to grow in power at the level cap rather than start all over. I want my character to grow in power at end game just like everyone else, why is the only way to do that involve starting over at level 1 and grinding the only way?



    P.S. Cordovan, Glin, Piolotto please start posting in this thread again, your silence makes us feel that you are not listening to us. You guys need to engage with the. Community more rather than run off at the first sign of rage posting.
    Last edited by Delacroix21; 06-16-2013 at 06:10 PM.
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  8. #1128

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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    (Where you actually start the next life: level 1, level 20, or somewhere in between, is less of an issue for both players and devs.)
    I would normally edit this into my previous post but I wanted to try and reduce the wall of textness of it.

    In terms of shortening an epic tr's grind, I think a better approach would be to start at 1 and lessen the xp requirements. Like, say, an epic tr gives you the first or even second life xp requirements. That's far preferable to skipping content by starting out at level 11.

    For back-of-the-napkin numbers, a third life starting at 11 needs 3.4 million xp to cap but has essentially skipped "half" of the heroic content. Why not just start them at 1 but only require the 3.1 million xp to cap of a second life?

  9. #1129
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Leave heroic TR alone. From any point in levels 20-xx it should work exactly as it does today and NOT affect epic destinies in ANY way.

    Add your Epic TR. At level 28 with your active ED max'd out. Do an epic TR. This can take you back to level 1 and give both a past life from your heroic levels and a past life from your active max'd out destiny. OR you can go back to level 20 and only get the past life from your active max'd out destiny.

    The only XP you should EVER have to re-earn is your xp to gain levels.
    /sigh

  10. #1130
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuickSlick79
    But let me see if I understand this correctly. You are telling me...you don't understand your OWN Fate Point code? The ONLY bit of the code you understand is the code you SELL IN THE STORE!? So your base code means nothing? Understanding the rules for your EPIC LEVEL ABILITIES are what...? Not important? Fate Points play right in with Epic Level Experience. If your reaction to our questions is basically...

    "Uh, we don't know WHAT will happen with our code when we try this. In fact, we didn't even PLAN for it. When we though about Epic Experience, we said, hey, you know that thing that people grind for more power? Let's just forget about that." I mean, why even TRY to touch GAME MECHANICS when you don't even know your code well enough to keep it stable FOR CHANGES.
    To be fair when it comes to their code, the fate points probably just use a flag: one to show it was store-purchased and one for everything else. As a developer myself, this is probably how I would have done it, too - especially since they clearly had not previously taken the time to think about how this TR system they are planning would work. (Furthermore, why would they take that time since it was planned for "eventually" and not even "soon (tm)"?)

    Do not make the mistake of thinking I agree with their overall decisions, but as regards the fate points, I think the problems they face in making them persistent are fair. They will probably have to implement a third flag and then write some code that basically says "Set $flag to $value when $event occurs", and then they have to go modify the logic to not award additional fate points when you are leveling your destinies again (unless they want to enable that, which would be simpler unless they have their code calculate how many bonded destiny levels you have, then change the flag on the corresponding number of fate points [which would probably be the easiest solution]).


    Quote Originally Posted by QuickSlick79 View Post
    We are angry. We are angry you do not listen, and we are angry about all of these idea's you seem to have that make us, your customers, feel invalid, cheated, and abused.
    Yep, pretty much this. They are basically saying that all the time and money I sank into leveling destinies was pointless. I feel rather robbed of the money I spent to purchase the points used to purchase experience elixirs to speed up the destiny leveling process. I only did all that because of the premise (and promise) that my destiny experience was not going to be reset when I TR'd.


    Quote Originally Posted by QuickSlick79
    For what its worth, I LIKE starting over at level 1. So, during this whole Brainstorm deal, since you seem DEAD SET on your idea's and CLEARLY wont second think what is OVERABUNDANTLY being expressed try and think about the people who are just plain SATISFIED with how Heroic TR works, and don't change a damn thing for it. LEAVE my ED experience, fate points, ALL OF IT alone.

    Use your little Epic Advantage thing for people who want a Feat for giving up all experience in that Destiny Tree. Pretty simple idea.
    Completely agree. Leave the heroic TR'ing alone. Let us participate in your destiny experience wiping scheme if we want to. I probably will eventually want to, too, but I do not want to be forced. I was hoping to get my wife playing the game later this year and I liked the option of TR'ing a character to play with her (probably my rogue), even though I know she and I were both going to start new druids first.

    Personally, I am not a completionist. I do not see the value in being completionist and I have neither the time nor the desire to do even Epic Completionist. The "epic advantage" is not an advantage in the case of TR'ing to play the game with my wife. I also do not consider it an advantage when I TR just to TR - because I also like leveling from level 1. I like revisiting all the low level content and playing through the game again. Please do not take that away from me.

    Your reasoning for wiping destiny experience seems to be "You all are too powerful now that you have all the destinies done", which makes no sense because the people who have lots of time are going to end up back at that level anyway - with the addition of past life feats to make them MORE powerful.

    Be forewarned: If you insist on wiping destiny experience, you are going to lose a LOT of customers. I have already canceled my subscription and it expires on 23 Jul (and in spite of the fact I forked over 50 bucks for your latest expansion). I dislike your proposed change THAT MUCH that I basically threw away my pre-purchase. I'm still hanging around and logging in a bit for now (but far less than I was - so thanks for the extra free time) and I am waiting to see what happens with this decision. If you reverse course, I will probably resubscribe. If not, you save me 10 bucks a month and force me to find something else to do with my free time.

  11. #1131
    Community Member SteeleTrueheart's Avatar
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    Default You are being conned

    Classic turbine con.

    Step 1. Want to add a bad system you know your players will hate
    (epic TR that will reset all destiny XP already earned, in some cases unlocked with money via shears)

    Step 2. Propose a really bad system twice as bad as the one you really want.
    (Even heroic TR will reset epic destiny XP, even though we should know they would never go ahead with that since they historically put a lot of effort to fix people who had been in that very situation via bugs and have said for a year TR will not reset your destiny XP.)

    Step. 3 Pretend you listened to your players and implement what you really wanted.

    'revert' heroic TR to not reset epic destiny XP but have EpicTR continue to reset it with maybe a slightly enhanced epic advantage.

    Step 4 receive praise from the deluded for 'listening' to your customers

    Implement what you wanted in the first place by first proposing a completely unreasonable stance and then negotiating down to the level you really wanted and make your negotiating party feel like they have won significant concessions. Thereby making them feel good about doing exactly what you wanted.
    Last edited by SteeleTrueheart; 06-16-2013 at 07:03 PM.
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  12. #1132
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    Default Oops!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Nice, I see you have been giving it some thought.

    I particularly like the one for Shadowdancer.

    Fury is a little limited, though. As proposed, ED PL's are stackable X3.
    Maybe a new type of Vorpal for epic levels?
    Heroic Vorpal only adds 100 hp dmg on mobs with 1000+ HP
    First Fury PL grants Epic Vorpal while raging - +200 hp dmg on mobs with 2000+ HP
    Second grants Epic Vorpal while raging - +300 hp dmg on mobs with 3000+ HP
    Third grants Epic Vorpal while raging - +400 hp dmg on mobs with 4000+ HP
    In short, Fury PL grants Epic Vorpal, which gives +1000 to max Vorpal cap and +100 to damage done to mobs with HP over cap.

    It has been a while since I have run epics, so numbers may need to be adjusted to be appropriate for epic mob HP levels.
    What do you think?
    My mistake. Iconic PL's are stackable X3, not ED PL's.

    But still, can we get an Epic Vorpal?
    Last edited by Tscheuss; 06-16-2013 at 08:04 PM.
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  13. #1133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I think it doesn't matter, the rest of the changes are so bad that past life feats are completely unimportant at this point. Who cares what the feats are when I've talked to people I know that play and out of people I've talked 90% will quit the game from the other changes. It's like complaining you've got a paper cut while looking up at a nuke falling on your head.
    Perhaps, but will happen will happen. So my toon with maxed ED's never sees TR. Then my TR'd toon with no ED investment will be the new main.
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  14. #1134
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    P.S. Cordovan, Glin, Piolotto please start posting in this thread again, your silence makes us feel that you are not listening to us. You guys need to engage with the. Community more rather than run off at the first sign of rage posting.
    It's the weekend man Give them a chance to get back to their padded cubicles on Monday and strap on their flak jacket and tinfoil helmets.

  15. #1135
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    It's the weekend man Give them a chance to get back to their padded cubicles on Monday and strap on their flak jacket and tinfoil helmets.
    Oops I forgot about this.


    That being said i hope they personally address my question: is the future of DDO always going to have a big focus on constant re leveling from 1-28?



    I want a system that gives me the benefits of TR while being level capped (where my friends are!). Maybe through a XP bank system i can use towards a TR (at a penalty perhaps due to higher level quests offering more xp). That way i can still TR, but can hopefully bank enough XP to skip the levels of 1-20. I LOVE the 20+ quests, I am SO sick to death of the earlier ones that Turbine keeps making me run through TR.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  16. #1136
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteeleTrueheart View Post
    Classic turbine con.

    Step 1. Want to add a bad system you know your players will hate
    (epic TR that will reset all destiny XP already earned, in some cases unlocked with money via shears)

    Step 2. Propose a really bad system twice as bad as the one you really want.
    (Even heroic TR will reset epic destiny XP, even though we should know they would never go ahead with that since they historically put a lot of effort to fix people who had been in that very situation via bugs and have said for a year TR will not reset your destiny XP.)

    Step. 3 Pretend you listened to your players and implement what you really wanted.

    'revert' heroic TR to not reset epic destiny XP but have EpicTR continue to reset it with maybe a slightly enhanced epic advantage.

    Step 4 receive praise from the deluded for 'listening' to your customers

    Implement what you wanted in the first place by first proposing a completely unreasonable stance and then negotiating down to the level you really wanted and make your negotiating party feel like they have won significant concessions. Thereby making them feel good about doing exactly what you wanted.
    Pretty much this.

    I see a few people in this thread trying to work a "compromise". Its simply laughable. Compromises are negotiated when both parties have leverage. People running around constantly saying "I <3 Turbine!" have no negotiating leverage. Their cash is already tallied up as a sure thing by Turbine, and really, why wouldn't it be?

    For their sake, I certainly hope these people don't have to do much "negotiating" in real life. They are probably the people who walk into a car dealership and ask "Can I buy this for list price?"

  17. #1137
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    Default IS turbine intentionally trying to kill DDO?

    There's so much fail in this proposal, I don't know where to start.
    There's nothing that would compensate for losing 2 million XP farmed per tree if I TR a character.
    Iconic shouldn't have anything to do with non-iconic TR'ing and vice versa
    Epic levels are generic levels so there is NO specific feat to gain by TR'ing
    Current Epic levels require the same XP after TR'ing, new system seems to imply that this amount will increase similar in nature to how heroic XP requirement increases after TR'ing
    To lose 2 million+ XP from each ED seems like a waste of time, even if I am getting a past life feat for the active? or one of the maxed out ? EDs
    Does this mean I lose fate points?

    Reducing TR timer to 3 days-this is almost pointless, as it is a rare person that can regain the 4+million xp need to recap a legend build in 3 days or less.
    Iconic Characters being able to LR/TR is just another nail in the coffin for both Eberron and non-Iconic characters. Might as well shut down Eberron if this goes active.

    If this proposal goes through this will be the straw that makes me leave DDO, its the last FU to me from the devs for all the time I've spent building my characters, just to see it all gone to waste.

  18. #1138
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteeleTrueheart View Post
    Classic turbine con.

    Step 1. Want to add a bad system you know your players will hate
    (epic TR that will reset all destiny XP already earned, in some cases unlocked with money via shears)

    Step 2. Propose a really bad system twice as bad as the one you really want.
    (Even heroic TR will reset epic destiny XP, even though we should know they would never go ahead with that since they historically put a lot of effort to fix people who had been in that very situation via bugs and have said for a year TR will not reset your destiny XP.)

    Step. 3 Pretend you listened to your players and implement what you really wanted.

    'revert' heroic TR to not reset epic destiny XP but have EpicTR continue to reset it with maybe a slightly enhanced epic advantage.

    Step 4 receive praise from the deluded for 'listening' to your customers

    Implement what you wanted in the first place by first proposing a completely unreasonable stance and then negotiating down to the level you really wanted and make your negotiating party feel like they have won significant concessions. Thereby making them feel good about doing exactly what you wanted.
    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Pretty much this.

    I see a few people in this thread trying to work a "compromise". Its simply laughable. Compromises are negotiated when both parties have leverage. People running around constantly saying "I <3 Turbine!" have no negotiating leverage. Their cash is already tallied up as a sure thing by Turbine, and really, why wouldn't it be?

    For their sake, I certainly hope these people don't have to do much "negotiating" in real life. They are probably the people who walk into a car dealership and ask "Can I buy this for list price?"
    I have to pretty much agree with both of you. I see alot of people trying to "compromise" with the "don't touch Heroic TR but do what you like with Epic TR". My gut feeling is that's what the Devs were planning all along. But we were told that if we bought Epic Destinies that the ED XP will not be reset or affected by both Heroic AND Epic XP.

    Besides it doesn't matter the TR treadmill is still the same for everyone even if the ED XP stays. If the ED XP stays, the only real advantage that people who have ED XP over those who don't is that they bypass re-leveling horrible EDs for their class and build, if they have already done those EDs. These players still have to finish leveling the EDs if they haven't capped then. And for players who have capped EDs, they still have to TR 11 times to become a Epic completionist, which is exactly the same amount of time needed for people who haven't touched EDs yet. So there's absolutely no reason to reset ED XP at all, except to punish players who actually believed what the Devs statement that ED XP would not be reset.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    That being said i hope they personally address my question: is the future of DDO always going to have a big focus on constant re leveling from 1-28?
    I really don't think anyone at Turbine knows what the future of the game is. We're being told that with the new Epic and Iconic TRs will make our characters more powerful, and it sounds like there's a chance that the Iconic TR past life might even stack multiple times. But four months ago the Devs nerfed the Epic Claws of the Bracers for being too overpowered because it had an untyped/universal +4 damage?! So there doesn't appear to be a plan at all right now...

  19. #1139
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    Default My opinion and suggestions from a Hardcore ddo fan!

    Well here's a few things that i would like to share... I am playing ddo from the 1st week of release. Having done all past lives x3 on a character, here is how i see your idea of the new Epic TR system.

    1- Epic destinies removal: Removing a feature that people already paid for, either with xp pots or with ddo store items doesn't make much sense. It would also KILL the fun and the rewards we farmed for so many hours, it would have been for nothing!

    2-Epic Completionist feature: Well if you have gone through all true reincarnations x3 already like me, i know that not a lot of people have done that but as it is, the idea of starting again from korthos lvl 1 to 20 and get nothing out of it is awfully scary and far from fun! As any non tr capped toon would benefit from it having both the normal pl + the epic, it is penalysing people that have already done it or paid for it.

    Suggestions:

    1- Do not remove any xp grind that people did with the the destinies as it was said stay after TRs... (Keep the promises you made)

    2- Start from 20 to 28. Not mixing epic TR with non-epic TR seems like a fair idea i would say. It is EPIC after all...

    3- General: If you want to keep people interested, add balanced new features, quests and put yourself not only in the newcomer's skin but also all types of players. As the old hardcore gamer, i know that the challenge to please us all is all but easy. Though, a way to keep people interested would be in my opinion to give benefits on all types of players without breaking or unbalancing what is already accomplished! Like the actual tr system.. .1st life 1.9m ... 3rd life 4,378 but we all get something at the end.

    4- Try to keep in mind that the point of the game must be that is it fun doing it! As tring is nothing but a grinding feature as i am a grinder myself, i mean as it is, making it too exaustive is not the way to go! Adding balanced features, quests, classes and items actually are the real deal that we really all hope for!

    5 In short, make more efforts by fixing the bugs before releasing new content, there are still so many unresolved issues, a rethink the filtering of bugs priorities is a necessity.

    (Long version) Sticky ladders, citw bugs, bugged feats ana's pathing, Epic desert drops are so low it is virtually impossible to make some of them after a year of ransacking each week on 2 toons. If i would say 1 seal and shard drop out of a random list of 54 items and pull of 1 seal,shard out of 20 chest on eh or EE, it is so closer to a lottery than an actual grind and get especially with a feature including ransack per week.

    Another issue that i would like to say as it is most likely the most annoying feature in ddo... (LAG). For the information, i have a high end computer with a 60 meg download and 10 meg upload. Fix the server delay, i mean, even with 40 ping, it has been like that forever, you shoot at on mob that moves sideways... if you want to hit it... You have to shoot as if it was about 0.8 second ahead of where you actually see the mob and that even if you are meleeing... I think that when your character dies is the most easy way to actually see how long it takes for the game to process the information to what is really happening. Well i play bf3 and other mmo's like neverwinter, swtor, and even lotro and i never see that much server delay ever.

    Coming back to the nice feaures, the new completionist feat seems like a good idea but the general re-balancing of the game and fixing the bugs are the real priority... keep up the good work on good ideas like as the game still need to be developped but also try to listen to the community... Beside the casual hate messages, so many of us have clever ideas and suggestions, i think that putting REAL attention to it would be a very good start.

    Thank you
    Last edited by maitremechant; 06-21-2013 at 03:13 AM.

  20. #1140
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    I would hate for this to get lost. Tyrande gives us a place to start re ED PL suggestions.

    He went to the effort of addressing this part of the OP. Can we show him the respect of considering his thoughts instead of burying them, please?
    They are stupid over-powered... +5 to DCs? Those are no longer slight bonuses; those are requirements to play or be gimp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

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