From a pure cash income point of view, the loss of players who aren't spending any money is of no consequence. What is often lost in the calculation is the negative PR that goes along with losing players, whether or not they cause any direct profit loss.
Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen
Absolutely dreadful ideas.
First implement the 38 point build for existing completionists.
Make the completionist feat PASSIVE so it can fit into any class or build.
Improve the existing past life feats, some are really lame.
Epic Completionist. No one is going to want to grind out destinies over and over. Even a completionist.
In my opinion, enhance existing completionist track which naturally explores all aspects(classes) of the game, and lose the Epic completionist idea.
Yambu. Completionist. Cannith.
I realize this is a smaller percentage of the player base. But I'm curious what the Dev's have in mind here. I've read a bunch of this thread but not all....as it gets a little depressing to read some of it. My question is this.
Are past life tr's wasted when the new system comes out. If I can level and get a heroic past life and an epic past life feat why would I tr now? I'm on life 30 and it seems wasteful to tr again now. Yes I have all Ed's maxed as well.
i agree with what are the goals. Heroic tr is 1-20. Why does epic tr involve destinies. Why not have a destiny tr for destinies.....sets your active destiny to 0, and epic tr be just that....tr your epic levels...I.e 20-28
I for one don't have an interest in playing 1-28 thirty more times......
Cor, Tell, Kora, Corkal, Mordeci, Corin, and a few others.
Synergia - Argonnessen
Devs, I think I know why you're wanting to wipe destiny xp: Because once a character maxes their destinies, if that xp is retained on TR they have NOTHING to keep playing for in terms of xp goals.
There is a solution to address this that should achieve the goals you want while not also alienating your playerbase. It's been mentioned several times already in this thread, but worth repeating:
An epic tr wipes the currently active maxed destiny, leaving the other destinies untouched. This epic tr grants a free passive past life feat based on the destiny you just wiped. (Where you actually start the next life: level 1, level 20, or somewhere in between, is less of an issue for both players and devs.)
This alternative to the dev proposal still gives incentive for veteran grinders to re-grind all 11 destinies over 11 lives. It's important to note that the dev-proposed system, where all unbonded destinies get reset each tr, has the exact same development goal: incentive to re-grind all 11 destinies over 11 lives. So this alternative gives the same amount of "new treadmill", it just does it in a way that won't also give HUGE incentive to never tr again, as the dev proposal does.
Additionally, does the dev proposal incentivize epic tring the same destiny more than once? This alternative proposal does, in the form of stacking 3x passive past life feats just like heroic tr. That's 11x3 or 33 more lives to completely max out your destiny past lives. It seems to me that the dev proposal CAN'T match this amount of new treadmill because as I read it, after 11 epic trs you literally cannot epic tr a 12th time since you no longer have an unbonded destiny to epic tr.
While it's arrogant to ask, I would love a dev response to this particular idea. It doesn't have to be my post; many people have offered up the same (or very similar) idea. It seems to me that it both a) achieves the devs' design goals, and b) answers the core objection of the players.
Why is there so much focus on re-rolling to get an increase in power? Are the future plans for DDO always going to have a focus on TR grinding?
Cordovan and Glin: can you guys work on a system that lets capped players collect TR benefits?
i don't want to reroll my character, leave my friends behind, and play classes i don't even like to increase in power. At least the Everquest AA system allowed you to grow in power at the level cap rather than start all over. I want my character to grow in power at end game just like everyone else, why is the only way to do that involve starting over at level 1 and grinding the only way?
P.S. Cordovan, Glin, Piolotto please start posting in this thread again, your silence makes us feel that you are not listening to us. You guys need to engage with the. Community more rather than run off at the first sign of rage posting.
Last edited by Delacroix21; 06-16-2013 at 06:10 PM.
Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!
Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36
In terms of shortening an epic tr's grind, I think a better approach would be to start at 1 and lessen the xp requirements. Like, say, an epic tr gives you the first or even second life xp requirements. That's far preferable to skipping content by starting out at level 11.
For back-of-the-napkin numbers, a third life starting at 11 needs 3.4 million xp to cap but has essentially skipped "half" of the heroic content. Why not just start them at 1 but only require the 3.1 million xp to cap of a second life?
Leave heroic TR alone. From any point in levels 20-xx it should work exactly as it does today and NOT affect epic destinies in ANY way.
Add your Epic TR. At level 28 with your active ED max'd out. Do an epic TR. This can take you back to level 1 and give both a past life from your heroic levels and a past life from your active max'd out destiny. OR you can go back to level 20 and only get the past life from your active max'd out destiny.
The only XP you should EVER have to re-earn is your xp to gain levels.
To be fair when it comes to their code, the fate points probably just use a flag: one to show it was store-purchased and one for everything else. As a developer myself, this is probably how I would have done it, too - especially since they clearly had not previously taken the time to think about how this TR system they are planning would work. (Furthermore, why would they take that time since it was planned for "eventually" and not even "soon (tm)"?)Originally Posted by QuickSlick79
Do not make the mistake of thinking I agree with their overall decisions, but as regards the fate points, I think the problems they face in making them persistent are fair. They will probably have to implement a third flag and then write some code that basically says "Set $flag to $value when $event occurs", and then they have to go modify the logic to not award additional fate points when you are leveling your destinies again (unless they want to enable that, which would be simpler unless they have their code calculate how many bonded destiny levels you have, then change the flag on the corresponding number of fate points [which would probably be the easiest solution]).
Completely agree. Leave the heroic TR'ing alone. Let us participate in your destiny experience wiping scheme if we want to. I probably will eventually want to, too, but I do not want to be forced. I was hoping to get my wife playing the game later this year and I liked the option of TR'ing a character to play with her (probably my rogue), even though I know she and I were both going to start new druids first.Originally Posted by QuickSlick79
Personally, I am not a completionist. I do not see the value in being completionist and I have neither the time nor the desire to do even Epic Completionist. The "epic advantage" is not an advantage in the case of TR'ing to play the game with my wife. I also do not consider it an advantage when I TR just to TR - because I also like leveling from level 1. I like revisiting all the low level content and playing through the game again. Please do not take that away from me.
Your reasoning for wiping destiny experience seems to be "You all are too powerful now that you have all the destinies done", which makes no sense because the people who have lots of time are going to end up back at that level anyway - with the addition of past life feats to make them MORE powerful.
Be forewarned: If you insist on wiping destiny experience, you are going to lose a LOT of customers. I have already canceled my subscription and it expires on 23 Jul (and in spite of the fact I forked over 50 bucks for your latest expansion). I dislike your proposed change THAT MUCH that I basically threw away my pre-purchase. I'm still hanging around and logging in a bit for now (but far less than I was - so thanks for the extra free time) and I am waiting to see what happens with this decision. If you reverse course, I will probably resubscribe. If not, you save me 10 bucks a month and force me to find something else to do with my free time.
Classic turbine con.
Step 1. Want to add a bad system you know your players will hate
(epic TR that will reset all destiny XP already earned, in some cases unlocked with money via shears)
Step 2. Propose a really bad system twice as bad as the one you really want.
(Even heroic TR will reset epic destiny XP, even though we should know they would never go ahead with that since they historically put a lot of effort to fix people who had been in that very situation via bugs and have said for a year TR will not reset your destiny XP.)
Step. 3 Pretend you listened to your players and implement what you really wanted.
'revert' heroic TR to not reset epic destiny XP but have EpicTR continue to reset it with maybe a slightly enhanced epic advantage.
Step 4 receive praise from the deluded for 'listening' to your customers
Implement what you wanted in the first place by first proposing a completely unreasonable stance and then negotiating down to the level you really wanted and make your negotiating party feel like they have won significant concessions. Thereby making them feel good about doing exactly what you wanted.
Last edited by SteeleTrueheart; 06-16-2013 at 07:03 PM.
Khyber - Officer in The Stormreach Thieves Guild
Steeles (TR 1 Paladin 20 / 8 Epic - TWF) - Steeley (Monkadin - Pal 18/Monk 2/ 8 Epic - Unarmed) - Steeltruhart (TR1 Paladin 17 - S&B Bastardsword) - Steelforged (Pal 20 / 8 Epic - SWF) - Steeltruhurt (TR1 - Pal 8 / Ftr 2 - THF) Steelsouls (Clr 17 / Pal 3 /8 Epic)
Last edited by Tscheuss; 06-16-2013 at 08:04 PM.
- Quijonn on Ghallanda, Triple Completionist ---> 3350 HP Unbuffed ---> 3405 HP Unbuffed ---> 7447HP Buffed (17,693HP total) ---> 130 CON
- Monster Manual, Known Issues ---> All Epic Quests EH and EE, XP/Min, Comms/Min
- The Stormreach Campaign--->Enhancements in PDF format ---> Saga's simplified
- Quality of Life Fixes
That being said i hope they personally address my question: is the future of DDO always going to have a big focus on constant re leveling from 1-28?
I want a system that gives me the benefits of TR while being level capped (where my friends are!). Maybe through a XP bank system i can use towards a TR (at a penalty perhaps due to higher level quests offering more xp). That way i can still TR, but can hopefully bank enough XP to skip the levels of 1-20. I LOVE the 20+ quests, I am SO sick to death of the earlier ones that Turbine keeps making me run through TR.
Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!
Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36
I see a few people in this thread trying to work a "compromise". Its simply laughable. Compromises are negotiated when both parties have leverage. People running around constantly saying "I <3 Turbine!" have no negotiating leverage. Their cash is already tallied up as a sure thing by Turbine, and really, why wouldn't it be?
For their sake, I certainly hope these people don't have to do much "negotiating" in real life. They are probably the people who walk into a car dealership and ask "Can I buy this for list price?"
There's so much fail in this proposal, I don't know where to start.
There's nothing that would compensate for losing 2 million XP farmed per tree if I TR a character.
Iconic shouldn't have anything to do with non-iconic TR'ing and vice versa
Epic levels are generic levels so there is NO specific feat to gain by TR'ing
Current Epic levels require the same XP after TR'ing, new system seems to imply that this amount will increase similar in nature to how heroic XP requirement increases after TR'ing
To lose 2 million+ XP from each ED seems like a waste of time, even if I am getting a past life feat for the active? or one of the maxed out ? EDs
Does this mean I lose fate points?
Reducing TR timer to 3 days-this is almost pointless, as it is a rare person that can regain the 4+million xp need to recap a legend build in 3 days or less.
Iconic Characters being able to LR/TR is just another nail in the coffin for both Eberron and non-Iconic characters. Might as well shut down Eberron if this goes active.
If this proposal goes through this will be the straw that makes me leave DDO, its the last FU to me from the devs for all the time I've spent building my characters, just to see it all gone to waste.
Besides it doesn't matter the TR treadmill is still the same for everyone even if the ED XP stays. If the ED XP stays, the only real advantage that people who have ED XP over those who don't is that they bypass re-leveling horrible EDs for their class and build, if they have already done those EDs. These players still have to finish leveling the EDs if they haven't capped then. And for players who have capped EDs, they still have to TR 11 times to become a Epic completionist, which is exactly the same amount of time needed for people who haven't touched EDs yet. So there's absolutely no reason to reset ED XP at all, except to punish players who actually believed what the Devs statement that ED XP would not be reset.
Well here's a few things that i would like to share... I am playing ddo from the 1st week of release. Having done all past lives x3 on a character, here is how i see your idea of the new Epic TR system.
1- Epic destinies removal: Removing a feature that people already paid for, either with xp pots or with ddo store items doesn't make much sense. It would also KILL the fun and the rewards we farmed for so many hours, it would have been for nothing!
2-Epic Completionist feature: Well if you have gone through all true reincarnations x3 already like me, i know that not a lot of people have done that but as it is, the idea of starting again from korthos lvl 1 to 20 and get nothing out of it is awfully scary and far from fun! As any non tr capped toon would benefit from it having both the normal pl + the epic, it is penalysing people that have already done it or paid for it.
1- Do not remove any xp grind that people did with the the destinies as it was said stay after TRs... (Keep the promises you made)
2- Start from 20 to 28. Not mixing epic TR with non-epic TR seems like a fair idea i would say. It is EPIC after all...
3- General: If you want to keep people interested, add balanced new features, quests and put yourself not only in the newcomer's skin but also all types of players. As the old hardcore gamer, i know that the challenge to please us all is all but easy. Though, a way to keep people interested would be in my opinion to give benefits on all types of players without breaking or unbalancing what is already accomplished! Like the actual tr system.. .1st life 1.9m ... 3rd life 4,378 but we all get something at the end.
4- Try to keep in mind that the point of the game must be that is it fun doing it! As tring is nothing but a grinding feature as i am a grinder myself, i mean as it is, making it too exaustive is not the way to go! Adding balanced features, quests, classes and items actually are the real deal that we really all hope for!
5 In short, make more efforts by fixing the bugs before releasing new content, there are still so many unresolved issues, a rethink the filtering of bugs priorities is a necessity.
(Long version) Sticky ladders, citw bugs, bugged feats ana's pathing, Epic desert drops are so low it is virtually impossible to make some of them after a year of ransacking each week on 2 toons. If i would say 1 seal and shard drop out of a random list of 54 items and pull of 1 seal,shard out of 20 chest on eh or EE, it is so closer to a lottery than an actual grind and get especially with a feature including ransack per week.
Another issue that i would like to say as it is most likely the most annoying feature in ddo... (LAG). For the information, i have a high end computer with a 60 meg download and 10 meg upload. Fix the server delay, i mean, even with 40 ping, it has been like that forever, you shoot at on mob that moves sideways... if you want to hit it... You have to shoot as if it was about 0.8 second ahead of where you actually see the mob and that even if you are meleeing... I think that when your character dies is the most easy way to actually see how long it takes for the game to process the information to what is really happening. Well i play bf3 and other mmo's like neverwinter, swtor, and even lotro and i never see that much server delay ever.
Coming back to the nice feaures, the new completionist feat seems like a good idea but the general re-balancing of the game and fixing the bugs are the real priority... keep up the good work on good ideas like as the game still need to be developped but also try to listen to the community... Beside the casual hate messages, so many of us have clever ideas and suggestions, i think that putting REAL attention to it would be a very good start.
Last edited by maitremechant; 06-21-2013 at 03:13 AM.
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