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  1. #1001
    Community Member Thumbed_Servant's Avatar
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    Default We were told....

    One of the MOST upsetting factors in the proposed change: We were given the rule that Epic Destinies WOULD carry over through a TR and therefore many players went out and played and played and played with the express purpose of capping all destinies knowing they would never lose the investment of time, and now it is proposed to reverse this and those who spent this time will lose that investment. This is VERY poorly thought out. A complete reversal of a position that will cost many people much much time invested is a horrible idea.

    I am also at this time feeling the depressing thought of, "Why should I quest my epic toons if they have maxed a destiny?" If I quest them more, they gain more destinies that will be evaporated should I TR. And yet, why would I TR now if I don't get to bond my capped destiny at this time and I don't get the Epic Past Life feat? If I tr now, I'll get the Heroic Past Life feat that I would also get along side an Epic Past Life feat if I waited and TR'd once the new Epic TR is available but not the Epic Past Life feat nor a bonded destiny, so maybe I shouldn't play the toon at all to only later lose my time invested when the new system comes out?

    EDIT: I wanted to sum up the feeling here....It feels as though we were have been lead on, or at least have had a SERIOUS promise (the promise that Epic Destinies would carry through TRs) broken. It feels like an injustice.
    Last edited by Thumbed_Servant; 06-15-2013 at 11:51 AM.
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  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geister View Post
    I propose 3 main changes to the original proposal:

    1. ED exp up through the current rank 5 is kept intact through all TR's - effect: players are happy and the sticky fate point issue is avoided!

    2. Add a 6th rank to each ED (does not have to be a real rank that grants fate points) - this rank would take more XP to unlock than the lower 5 ranks. The EXP requirement would be something like a fresh 20 with no ED exp would have to make this ED his primary ED for 6 or so out of the 8 epic levels to get it caped (leaves a little wiggle room to branch out some). The carrot at the top of this tree does not need to be huge but i think something for people that are not planing to TR should be there. A few possibilities would be: Auto grants the past life feat gained by that destiny while in that destiny - 2 to 4 more points to spend in that destiny - a cosmetic armor kit that corresponds with that destiny - something else. The EXP for the 6th rank is reset upon TR unless it is the epic destiny that gets locked in. Effect: In order to achieve a Epic TR in a destiny, players would need to spend a significant amount of time in that destiny even if it is currently rank 5.

    3. The Epic advantage would need to change since ED ranks are kept. Epic advantage only works for ED's that have been locked in place through epic TR. This should be handled just like veteran status. Put people on the ship and let them decide how many levels they want auto granted up to the maximum they have unlocked.
    Appreciate your attempts to come up with an idea, however, as I read your proposal and if I am reading this correctly, you want people that haven't touched ED's to do double the normal amount of XP just so they can EPIC TR and allow epic veterans(people who have the ED already complete) can keep the existing ED benefits. Wouldn't this turn away new people to the game? It seems a little excessive to require that much xp for an ED to be completed.

    I really think the solution is easier then people make it out to be(except if Dev's have further benefits planned based upon Epic Destiny's giving benefits). If you want to Epic TR and get the benefits of Epic TR'ing .. you wear the price for it just like you do with a heroic TR at present. Those that don't want to Epic TR should be allowed to reincarnate (everything but epic TR) while still keeping their epic destiny's as they are each time. It solves the problem for those wanting to keep their Epic Destiny's.

    Krumper

  3. #1003
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Since this topic has so many messages and I have edited my post then I'll post it again, because I think that's the true solution for ED xp imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    I vote yes for this:
    1) when Heroic TR you lose no ED xp at all (i.e. please don't change this)
    2) when Epic TR you lose just the bonded ED's xp (i.e. all other EDs xp remains).
    3) raise needed xp for ETR1, more for ETR2. Cap it at ETR2 (i.e. xp needed: ETR2 = ETR3 = ETR4 = ...).
    4) you lose some EDs points in other EDs though, because by 3) after ETR1 xp need for ED cap is higher now, but you don't lose xp, just the xp cap was increased (and thus the xp needed for ED's point was increased too).
    Anyone disagree with this suggestion?

  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    Since this topic has so many messages and I have edited my post then I'll post it again, because I think that's the true solution for ED xp imo.

    Anyone disagree with this suggestion?
    I think you have point 2 around the wrong way .. I think it should read -

    2) when Epic TR you lose just the unbonded ED's xp (i.e. all other bonded EDs xp remains)


    Krumper

  5. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOA666 View Post
    Appreciate your attempts to come up with an idea, however, as I read your proposal and if I am reading this correctly, you want people that haven't touched ED's to do double the normal amount of XP just so they can EPIC TR and allow epic veterans(people who have the ED already complete) can keep the existing ED benefits. Wouldn't this turn away new people to the game? It seems a little excessive to require that much xp for an ED to be completed.

    I really think the solution is easier then people make it out to be(except if Dev's have further benefits planned based upon Epic Destiny's giving benefits). If you want to Epic TR and get the benefits of Epic TR'ing .. you wear the price for it just like you do with a heroic TR at present. Those that don't want to Epic TR should be allowed to reincarnate (everything but epic TR) while still keeping their epic destiny's as they are each time. It solves the problem for those wanting to keep their Epic Destiny's.

    Krumper
    You miss the point. yes it will take more EXP to get the destiny caped to be able to epic TR but you will still get it 2-3 levels BEFORE you hit the level 28 epic cap. All you have to do extra is stay in that ED a little longer then someone that already has it caped.

  6. #1006
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOA666 View Post
    I think you have point 2 around the wrong way .. I think it should read -

    2) when Epic TR you lose just the unbonded ED's xp (i.e. all other bonded EDs xp remains)


    Krumper
    I think only one ED can be made bonded. And after Epic TR you get bonuses from that bonded ED (like a feat or more ED points or whatever bonus).
    That's why:
    - all other EDs xp should remain untouched
    - you lose xp only from the bonded ED when ETR
    - xp cap for that bonded ED (I mean bonded in previous life just before ETR) should be raised (other EDs xp cap stay untouched until you bond them and ETR).
    Last edited by TheRobai; 06-15-2013 at 12:09 PM.

  7. #1007
    Community Member Cableman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    I can live with this as long as Fate Points are preserved. I'm looking forward to how this turns out.
    Bjriand The Great 15/3/2 Warlock/Paladin/Cleric Triple Heroic / Epic / Iconic Completionist - 95 Total lives
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  8. #1008
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Default Remove repeat quest penalties

    I have maxed out all my EDs for the fate points and to test for broken abilities (which there still quite a few) through over 847 house of rusted blades quests. Just take that in for a second ok? Over 800 runs of a quests (20k per run, 1,884,000xp to cap, 7 destinies to cap as i capped the other 2 while leveling to 25).


    That was with a greater epic tome of learning and being a VIP.


    Now I am not going to use caps and yell at you, but you tell me what is fun about running the same quest 847 times? Could I have run other quests to level? No, the xp rewards from other quests aren't worth it, not for a grind of this magnitude. And that's what you have made this TR system, a GRIND. It's not fun, not fun at all. It WOULD be fun if TR actually gave you BONUS xp making leveling from 1-20 a second, third, etc. time faster then normal. But instead you made it cost extra xp with quest repeat penalties, turning leveling up from fun to a well planned and strategized grind that new players are. Excluded from because they will slow you down and thus increase the GRIND.


    I keep using caps on the word GRIND to emphasize the point that there is nothing "fun" about a GRIND. Running 1 quest over 847 times seems insane, and yet you are setting up yet another TR system that expects me to do it all over again. I earned over 20,000,000 XP for all my GRINDING, and I want it all back.


    Give us a "stone of 100,000"XP for every 100,000xp we have in our other EDs when we TR, that can be used to either level up in heroic levels, or in epic levels. Give these stones even after the update so people don't say: "well I capped th ED I want, better Epic TR now or any and all my efforts leveling are a waste of time"



    Lastly, allow epic xp to be earned in a "pool" that can be SPENT on ANY ED. I am so tire of seeing fighters etc. in a magister ED just to level it. Make the game more fun, let us level EDs less painfully than live.
    Last edited by Delacroix21; 06-15-2013 at 12:14 PM.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  9. #1009
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRobai View Post
    I think only one ED can be made bonded. And after Epic TR you get bonuses from that bonded ED (like a feat or more ED points or whatever bonus).
    That's why:
    - all other EDs xp should remain untouched
    - you lose xp only from the bonded ED when ETR
    - xp cap for that bonded ED (I mean bonded in previous life just before ETR) should be raised (other EDs xp cap stay untouched until you bond them and ETR).


    This would be awesome. It really should be this.

    Sadly we need more bank space, content and raids more than Epic TR. Perhaps we can get it all?
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

    “A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.”

  10. #1010
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Default Targetting Update 20

    It's all coming this year.
    kruemeli of Orien - Leader of the "Merry" Hobbits https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...20#post5002220
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  11. #1011
    Community Member Atremus's Avatar
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    Lol
    Characters: Celemia / Tukson / Thau (Broken link) / Atremus

    “A pessimist is one who feels bad when he feels good for fear he'll feel worse when he feels better.”

  12. #1012
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Also as a tip, lets try something new and instead of you choosing the compensation you think is fair, let the game community vote on it.


    I spent countless hours running the same quest 847 times for my fate point. You guys figure out that "internal code" on your end to please preserve those points, as I strongly doubt the compensation you come up with will match that. Since you allready hinted that the XP given when TRing will be "adjusted" to heroic levels, meaning severely nerfed.


    Giving me enough xp to tr level from 1-20 does NOT make up for my 847 house of rusted blades runs. Giving me xp stones to use as i see fit (equal to what I burning) is fair.
    Making DDO a better game 1 post at a time!

    Triple EVERYTHING Completionist= Heroic 39/39, Iconic 12/12, Epic 36/36

  13. #1013
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    So I go out last night . . . go to sleep . . . wake up and hit "Man of Steel" . . . and we're now at over 50 pages of "hell no!" to these inane ideas?

    Our point's made Turbine. Under no conditions is it okay for Heroic TR to blank out ED XP.

  14. #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geister View Post
    You miss the point. yes it will take more EXP to get the destiny caped to be able to epic TR but you will still get it 2-3 levels BEFORE you hit the level 28 epic cap. All you have to do extra is stay in that ED a little longer then someone that already has it caped.
    Ok I have posted a few times as a warm up in the past hour. Start rant ...

    This is only my opinion and I appreciate that 95%(yeah yeah I made this stat up :P) of people wont agree with me however I will lay my cards on the table. Yes, I will get bent over and yes, I will have to get the doctor to give me forum ointment for a flaming rear end by differing opinions.

    I think keeping all the Destiny's XP for those wanting to Epic TR cheapens what TR'ing is about and more importantly cheapens what I have achieved. I just wanted it on the record for Dev's to read as everyone else has wept over keeping their Epic Destiny xp in this thread. I am now weeping over keeping TR'ing meaningful as TR'ing means something to those that have done it and others look up to people who have achieved it.

    I agree mentally I will feel like I have been kicked in the head by turbine when I see it all my Epic Destiny's reset after doing my first Epic TR. But I will know its going to happen and I can make a conscious decision to forgo it for greater TR riches.

    The people that want the benefits of TR'ing, but don't want to put in the grind to get it, will always look for a cheap and nasty way to obtain it without grinding it out like TR's have done in the past. Sitting at level 25 repeatedly getting XP from the same quest in your maxed out sets of gear isn't grinding. That would be like a heroic reincarnation (pretty flower with an aura?!!!?) starting again at lvl 20 and giving them 4.378million XP to gain with 3 skills/spells from another class on top of their current class/es.

    You can not tell me that Epic XP is hard to gain.


    Krumper
    PS - Thank you anyone that read my full post. I am sorry I have a no refund policy for the time you spent reading it if you don't agree with it.

  15. #1015
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    I have maxed out all my EDs for the fate points and to test for broken abilities (which there still quite a few) through over 847 house of rusted blades quests. Just take that in for a second ok? Over 800 runs of a quests (20k per run, 1,884,000xp to cap, 7 destinies to cap as i capped the other 2 while leveling to 25).


    Now I am not going to use caps and yell at you, but you tell me what is fun about running the same quest 847 times? Could I have run other quests to level? No, the xp rewards from other quests aren't worth it, not for a grind of this magnitude.

    I think this argument, which keeps getting repeated as though it is something substantial, is a bad argument. Mainly because you absolutely could have run other quests to get the xps, yet you eschewed them for xp/min runs. Arguing that the max xp/min quest is the only possible quest to run is subjective and demonstrably untrue as there are players like me who have run rusted blades MAYBE five times and I'm getting close to maxing my EDs.



    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    Running 1 quest over 847 times seems insane, and yet you are setting up yet another TR system that expects me to do it all over again. I earned over 20,000,000 XP for all my GRINDING, and I want it all back.

    I agree that running the same quest 847 times seems insane. It certainly requires a level of boredom suppression very few people are capable of. I'm not capable of it. But that was your choice. You calculated the fastest way to grind xps and you chose to do it that way. You have the advantage of being able to use those destinies for a long time, but you also are subject to the risks all early adopters face: any changes to the system will hit you first and probably hardest.


    I've chosen to do it the long way... run everything once or twice, TR then do it again. If anything I have put in a lot more time and effort into acquiring my EDs than someone who ran 7 minute runs of rusted blades over and over. I have a lot more to lose than you if these changes occur as originally posted.


    But even if this system gets implemented without any changes, no one is FORCING me or you or any other player to re-grind all the epic xps. They are presenting us with a choice we didn't have before for epic TR: burn 80% of your epic xps for an epic past life bonus or don't burn them and keep all of them.


    I honestly think they will change the heroic TR so we don't have to burn all of our epic xps. But even if they don't, no one is FORCING me or you or anyone else to burn those xps. We still have a choice: burn them and TR or keep them and don't TR.
    Yeah that choice is a huge change, and not a welcome one, but I'll just choose not to heroic TR any guys with a ton of EDs I don't want to lose.


    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    Lastly, allow epic xp to be earned in a "pool" that can be SPENT on ANY ED. I am so tire of seeing fighters etc. in a magister ED just to level it. Make the game more fun, let us level EDs less painfully than live.

    This is an interesting suggestion. I was thinking along the lines of once our ED trees have been unlocked, even after we ETR or HTR, those trees all remain accessible so we don't have to repeat destinies we don't enjoy playing. We'd still have to re-earn our xps and fate points, but we wouldn't have to re-run through Shadowdancer to get access to the magister spheres, etc. We could make any destiny active that we had previously unlocked.
    Last edited by Postumus; 06-15-2013 at 12:42 PM.

  16. #1016
    Community Member ComfortablyNumb's Avatar
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    well, I guess the good news is I won't have to read 50+ pages of every thread when you all quit

    give me an extra twist for each etr, that'll probably help. or more realistically, 1 extra twist for 3 etr's. free, not using fate points

  17. #1017
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    wake up and hit "Man of Steel" . . .
    Don't hit the "man of steel" 'cos Viagra only works when you want it to....

    Update 20 is coming and there seems to be nothing we can do.

    EDIT: (well I edited my thought process...even it it isn't a real edit)

    I really, really think that the DDO community needs to get a grip on itself and start paying attention to who posts what. Maybe we even need a different color scheme.

    Glin is not a "dev" he is an executive producer.
    (for reasons of transparency I demand... DEMAND to know where Fernando now is... googling him does not help much)
    Cordovan is not a "dev" he is a community guy.
    Tolero is now busy with other forums? (AC2?)
    MajMal is not a dev... he is the poor guy/gal/kobold that is stuck in QA.
    and so on.... and so on...

    I think maybe even using different colors for different people... so we know what is what. And who is who.
    And maybe they should change the "dev tracker" so that it is just the "posts from turbine employees"...

    Then we would know how to evaluate the posts and the info.

    Who is in charge now? If GLIN says "make TR so that everyone has to become an Elf" then do we all have to be elves?
    Who has the final say in anything/everything? Where does the buck stop..?
    Last edited by AlmGhandi; 06-15-2013 at 12:47 PM. Reason: A real EDIT - punctuation
    kruemeli of Orien - Leader of the "Merry" Hobbits https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...20#post5002220
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  18. #1018
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOA666 View Post
    Ok I have posted a few times as a warm up in the past hour. Start rant ...

    This is only my opinion and I appreciate that 95%(yeah yeah I made this stat up :P) of people wont agree with me however I will lay my cards on the table. Yes, I will get bent over and yes, I will have to get the doctor to give me forum ointment for a flaming rear end by differing opinions.

    I think keeping all the Destiny's XP for those wanting to Epic TR cheapens what TR'ing is about and more importantly cheapens what I have achieved. I just wanted it on the record for Dev's to read as everyone else has wept over keeping their Epic Destiny xp in this thread. I am now weeping over keeping TR'ing meaningful as TR'ing means something to those that have done it and others look up to people who have achieved it.

    I agree mentally I will feel like I have been kicked in the head by turbine when I see it all my Epic Destiny's reset after doing my first Epic TR. But I will know its going to happen and I can make a conscious decision to forgo it for greater TR riches.

    The people that want the benefits of TR'ing, but don't want to put in the grind to get it, will always look for a cheap and nasty way to obtain it without grinding it out like TR's have done in the past. Sitting at level 25 repeatedly getting XP from the same quest in your maxed out sets of gear isn't grinding. That would be like a heroic reincarnation (pretty flower with an aura?!!!?) starting again at lvl 20 and giving them 4.378million XP to gain with 3 skills/spells from another class on top of their current class/es.

    You can not tell me that Epic XP is hard to gain.


    Krumper
    PS - Thank you anyone that read my full post. I am sorry I have a no refund policy for the time you spent reading it if you don't agree with it.

    Very well said. I feel the same way. +1


    I also think it undermines some of these posters argument when they say "I SPENT SEVEN DAYS grinding epic xps to max out my EDs!" If anything that screams it is far, far too easy to max out EDs and something needs to change.
    Last edited by Postumus; 06-15-2013 at 12:47 PM.

  19. #1019
    Community Member DogMania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_smacks_alot View Post


    I would be more likely to take the time to do things I feel are fun instead of grinding the high xp quests over and over and over.
    LOL So it wasn't funny when I was disabling the trap when u pulled the switch and spiked me to Death, Man we have had a lot of fun and I just hope it does not end

  20. #1020
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Very well said. I feel the same way. +1
    +1 doesn't give any plusses in the new forums...
    at least as far as I know.
    kruemeli of Orien - Leader of the "Merry" Hobbits https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...20#post5002220
    It is okay to be "merry": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjOOKb-DFZs
    I just Keep quiet and think.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYP8M06A8W0

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