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  1. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).
    I strongly suggest that you people reconsider this position and keep it as it is for heroic TR'ing!

  2. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).
    Allowing Heroic TR to continue working the way TR currently does isn't an incentive to avoid epic level play. My first level 20 character has been playing around with epic stuff while staying 20 so it is in range to group with guildies in their upper teens. Our guild is very small and few people have high level characters so we decided to park at 20 for maximum ability to group together. The idea was to max out a destiny complementary to my current life, then when I have a second character reach 20, TR into a class complementary to the next ED I want to work on, rinse and repeat, TRing when I reach cap or get bored of my current build or just whenever I'm ready to.

    We were told that we could do this. Our ED progress would be preserved, so we could progress them at our leisure and enjoy a balance between heroic and elite content. It was an explicit design feature.

    Now that explicit design feature, I'm told, is being taken away. I will have no reason to play epic level stuff in between leveling. I'll reach 20 and TR, except maybe every few lives when I want to "burn in" a specific ED. This won't make me play epic stuff more, it will make me play epic stuff LESS.

    Heroic TR works fine the way it is. It's not broken and it doesn't need fixing (except the 18-20 leveling slump which could be addressed a number of different ways). I don't want to start at level 4 while my 10th life friend with 55 destiny levels starts at 12 and my other friend who's just trying the game for the first time starts at 1.

    If I want an Epic Destiny past life, yes, wipe my epic destiny exp! That makes sense! I'm giving up my current experience in order to earn a past life feat and start again fresh.

    If I want a heroic past life, wipe my character exp. That makes sense! But leave my EDs the way they are so I can enjoy them as much or as little as I can between lives and still feel I am making progress. You know, the way they were explicitly designed.

    Also, please give us an answer regarding sphere unlocks and whether they will be preserved when ED experience is wiped.

  3. #983
    Community Member ycheese123's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Summary of your reasoning?

    So basically you guys are butthurt that we farmed the same 2 quests to max our destinies, you're scared that everyone is going to TR because the new content is going to suck?, there's NO NEW RAID(s), we have no destinies to level during the climb to lvl28, and people are going to be bored...

    So to keep us playing/purchasing your new epic content and punish us for grinding 2 quests for EDs you make TR'ing less appealing by having ED xp wipe upon doing it. And hey, now we have more Destinies to level again so that keeps us playing some more too! Congratulations! You have made TR'ing less appealing for sure. I don't care what "compensation" you come up with; you could give me a 40pt build, let me keep fate points, level straight to 20, and I still wouldn't TR after U20. I want the fully unlocked EDs I spent time unlocking. And I wanted to start to TR'ing my main to completionist for fun, and now I guess that's not gonna happen. If I want to play him I'll be stuck playing your stupid new Forgotten Realms content that doesn't include a raid. That's what you want right? Again, congratulations on accomplishing your goal. I didn't buy the expansion though, and I'm glad, as I think this is going to make me not want to play at all. Ahh, I feel better now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yalinaa View Post
    If you loose ED XP in every kind of TR except heroic TR, the majority of the players would simply do only heroic TR. Piloto already wrote it, they don't like us playing on heroic levels, they want us to play their (crappy) end game content.
    Bingo.
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  4. #984

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    Here it is for me, Turbine. Simply stated:

    If you are going to take away my Epic Destiny work that I have completed upon Herioc TR, I will not play anymore. If I do not play anymore, it is likely that the 5 RL friends of mine in my guild will also not play anymore. I believe that perhaps 3 of them are VIP subscribers.

    I realize that this amount of monetary loss is not enough to sway you from your current development plans. But, I think it would be very foolish to not consider the larger scale reprecussions of pressing on with a plan that has recieved such a negative response with the player community.


    Somehow, I get the impression that you and your staff sincerely think that we want this. I liken it to the following analogy:

    "It's FUN to go shopping at the grocery store to replace all of the food in your refrigerator and freezer after a power outage!! We have witnessed that our customers LOVE to shop from scratch, despite the anger and frustration of the lost time/money from everything they have stored up being ruined."

    Please do not unplug my Epic Destiny freezer, Turbine. If you do, I will NOT be returning to restock it again.

  5. #985

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    This is not Cordovan's fault guys. He's not a developer, not a decision maker. At ALL. All he can do is relay a message given to him by the decision makers (manager types above the developers). WB and Turbine suits.

    They are killing this game from the inside out. We are not participating in a discussion, we are just listening to ourselves type.

    Jerry, please get the devs to spend a few more minutes here (Piloto's response is a great start).. interact with the playerbase.

    Lets get this site reverted or fixed and welcome people back. Too many community members left this site in... droves. Many ViPs. The few left, or coming back to have a voice in this thread are not happy for the most part, because they know this is set in stone. Why? Remember the last brainstorm, enhancement pass? Stone.

    This is happening. Sure the details can change... but INTERACT with the playerbase. Show us the "proposal" can change.
    Leslie - they ARE talking to us and engaging us. Right now. In this thread. Please do not misuse this opportunity to be positive and constructive.

  6. #986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Not when it feels like E3 for Turbine.

    Oh crude, we screwed up. What can we do now?

    Just let it happen, Gkar. It will be over soon.
    You know last night I logged into one of my Epic characters. Sat there for a couple minutes, realized there was no reason to play them since they already had one destiny maxed, and then parked them until U20. I guess I have 4 parked characters now.

    I switched to my L14...but its on its second life so when it hits 20 I have to park it since it also has more than one ED done...

    I have 3 more characters that don't have any EDs done. I guess I could get them up to 1 ED each before I'm out of characters to play.

    Yeah, I think I'm about to run out of things to do in this game.

  7. #987
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    I personally don't find any of Glin's post appealing.

  8. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    It is also clear that the elephant in the room is the undercompensated loss of unbound ED XP.
    Actually I'm not totally sure that's the white elephant. People are upset about the ED XP loss because the ED XP system sucks the big one. To make people happy they would probably have to:

    1) Do something to grandfather the old ED XP from before U20
    2) Change the ED XP system to detach ED XP from your active destiny. Let me designate 1 ED as my active for the purpose of abilities and 1 ED as active for the purpose of receiving XP. This would make the entire Epic game more fun, and thus people wouldn't be so very protective of their ED XP. And frankly making the game more fun without any reduction in work is a good thing period. Make it so and the devs are heros and will revitalize epics.

    So, compensate each FIRST ETR with 1M XP Stones for every one million unbound ED XP, and put them in the TR cache. BtC and usable only on said character, but they can be moved to normal storage, and unused stones shall survive subsequent TR's; the player can spend them when he/she will.
    This would be a good way to deal with my item #1 above. It still doesn't however fix the longer term problem with the ED/TR mechanic they are proposing.

  9. #989
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    Default And now we wait~

    First of all, would like to thank the developer Piloto for his post which seemed inteded to "clarify" the OP post and the general discussions they had intended with this idea. The OP certainly needed clarification and more elaboration to the concerns we as your fanbase had to the idea.

    Secondly, I'd like to thank Cordovan for keeping the forum mostly civil on an expressedly explosive topic.

    Finally, I believe the developers can see that aspects of their idea is not going to be as beneficial to their game as they originally thought. I don't believe there is much we all can do but wait until they bring a second proposal for their idea. We as the community have proposed many fine alternatives and have very legitimate concerns about products we've bought in the DDO store. We see that the tomes of fate will be preserved no matter what system comes out, but say the keys of destiny.. not so much. I think the developers have much to think about in next few weeks given the passion of the thread.

    I'm just going to give the heads up though where I think I personally gonna draw the red line. If heroic TRs begins to wipe Destiny XP, I think that might be it. A game's fanbase is ever fickle and it's a credit you kept some of us for so long, but enacting that is gonna turn TRing into a treadmill and not an exploration of all the experiences in DDO that it was meant to be. I challenge to simplify the rules you have, fix the bugs, and create content (monsters, quests, raids, etc).. not new rules and regulations of how to play a game (new xp system, new tr system, new auction system, new XYZ systems).

    Posted enough for now, see you all when it hits Lammaland~

  10. #990
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    One issue I have not seen addressed that myself and everyone I know that's played in epics agrees to: It's not fun to play in an epic destiny that has nothing to do with your character. Since the developers are proposing a change to the epic destiny system, why not change the system to address this issue?
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  11. #991
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    Default Epic Level & Iconic TR...

    Loving where you are headed with this Devs!

    I don't think much tweaking is needed except to allow reincarnation(other then TR'ing) to keep existing epic destiny levels for those not wanting to TR. Those that want to TR need to suck it up. That's why TR isn't for everyone.

    Other change (I think it's mandatory) is to give both Heroic and Epic Completionist feats to characters as an auto feat. People can't fit in all the feats for a build as it is let alone handicapping them by removing a feat to be able to select the completionist feat. This is probably the second reason behind "the grind" as to why people don't go for completionist.

    Regards

    Krumper
    PS - Could we have some more moderators who police these forums? Some of these people who post on these forums need a good kick in the rear. It chases away people who would post but fear a flaming from someone having a bad hair day.

  12. #992
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    One issue I have not seen addressed that myself and everyone I know that's played in epics agrees to: It's not fun to play in an epic destiny that has nothing to do with your character. Since the developers are proposing a change to the epic destiny system, why not change the system to address this issue?
    I do not see this as an "issue" at all. If it is not fun to be in a destiny that has nothing to do with your character, then don't go in it! There is no reason to do so, besides self interest.
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  13. #993
    Founder Mellkor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DOA666 View Post
    Loving where you are headed with this Devs!

    I don't think much tweaking is needed except to allow reincarnation(other then TR'ing) to keep existing epic destiny levels for those not wanting to TR. Those that want to TR need to suck it up. That's why TR isn't for everyone.

    Other change (I think it's mandatory) is to give both Heroic and Epic Completionist feats to characters as an auto feat. People can't fit in all the feats for a build as it is let alone handicapping them by removing a feat to be able to select the completionist feat. This is probably the second reason behind "the grind" as to why people don't go for completionist.

    Regards

    Krumper
    PS - Could we have some more moderators who police these forums? Some of these people who post on these forums need a good kick in the rear. It chases away people who would post but fear a flaming from someone having a bad hair day.
    It boggles my mind as to why completionist is not a free additional feat as well. For work of that magnitude, even one free feat is kind of lame, IMO.

    The current "reward" of having access to the completionist feat that must be taken instead of a regular feat is downright insulting! I do not bother to try for completionist for this reason!
    Last edited by Mellkor; 06-15-2013 at 10:28 AM.
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  14. #994
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    Lightbulb Lets start with the overall goals

    So having read through most of this thread I know what the players want (myself included) and I can guess as to what Turbine wants so lets lay out those two points of view:

    Players - We don't want to lose what we already have. We don't want to regrind ED's no matter how much heroic EXP gets thrown at us. We are terrified of losing our fate points.

    Turbine - It would be silly to introduce a epic TR if some of the player base has most of if not all the requirements done already. We want people to earn a Epic past life feat starting with this new system. ED's are an integral part of the Epic TR process. People should have to play in the destiny they are going to TR that life. (Turbine feel free to chime in if I missed something)

    So the question now is how can we keep the most people happy?
    That's easy - stop using the stick and reach for a carrot.

    I propose 3 main changes to the original proposal:

    1. ED exp up through the current rank 5 is kept intact through all TR's - effect: players are happy and the sticky fate point issue is avoided!

    2. Add a 6th rank to each ED (does not have to be a real rank that grants fate points) - this rank would take more XP to unlock than the lower 5 ranks. The EXP requirement would be something like a fresh 20 with no ED exp would have to make this ED his primary ED for 6 or so out of the 8 epic levels to get it caped (leaves a little wiggle room to branch out some). The carrot at the top of this tree does not need to be huge but i think something for people that are not planing to TR should be there. A few possibilities would be: Auto grants the past life feat gained by that destiny while in that destiny - 2 to 4 more points to spend in that destiny - a cosmetic armor kit that corresponds with that destiny - something else. The EXP for the 6th rank is reset upon TR unless it is the epic destiny that gets locked in. Effect: In order to achieve a Epic TR in a destiny, players would need to spend a significant amount of time in that destiny even if it is currently rank 5.

    3. The Epic advantage would need to change since ED ranks are kept. Epic advantage only works for ED's that have been locked in place through epic TR. This should be handled just like veteran status. Put people on the ship and let them decide how many levels they want auto granted up to the maximum they have unlocked.

  15. #995
    Community Member Xorm's Avatar
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    I don't understand why the fuss, the solution is really easy, Leave heroic reincarnates as they are, and add in a new and improved Epic TR. If someone is level 28 with maxed destinys, and wants to TR the obtain a heroic TR. IF they WANT to get the epic TR past lives, then they go with the new Epic TR's. The Epic TR's could have the advantage of counting as both a Heroic and Epic TR. Simple enough in my mind.

    *prepares for the onslaught of backlash*
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  16. #996
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    I do not see this as an "issue" at all. If it is not fun to be in a destiny that has nothing to do with your character, then don't go in it! There is no reason to do so, besides self interest.
    The devs have just stated, that their goal is to get people to play epic more. This is precisely the issue at hand. Either you're in a maxed destiny (fun) and don't gain exp (not fun), or you swap to a bad destiny (not fun) to get more exp (fun). When your choises are fun+not_fun or not_fun+fun, the choise easily becomes heroic TR, where you start over and get some perks (fun) and gain exp with a slightly better toon than the previous run (fun). Epic: 50% fun, heroic: 100% fun.

  17. #997
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellkor View Post
    I do not see this as an "issue" at all. If it is not fun to be in a destiny that has nothing to do with your character, then don't go in it! There is no reason to do so, besides self interest.
    You haven't run ED have you? The system is designed for force you to run destinies that have nothing to do with your character in order to be able to run destinies that are for your character.

  18. #998
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    Default Wwhhhaaatt?!?

    Ok, first things first. I love playing this game. I've made many friends in DDO, and questing with them just plain rocks. That being said. You. Have. Got. To. Be. Frakking. Kidding. Me. Regrind all my ED's? Go through all that again?!?I don't grind quests with the intention of just leveling my character or ED's. I have spent a long time building my ED's (even the ones I didn't like), just so I wouldn't have to do it again. Now, you're saying all that was for nothing?!? I love playing DDO, but, if you guys insist on things like this (not a huge fan of the new enhancements either), I'll stop playing. I've spent quite a lot of real money on this game, and will continue to do so. If it remains fun. Though, at this point, I'm seriously thinking about going and making a Jedi.

  19. #999
    Community Member Permian's Avatar
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    Cool Nah

    Quote Originally Posted by Xorm View Post
    I don't understand why the fuss, the solution is really easy, Leave heroic reincarnates as they are, and add in a new and improved Epic TR. If someone is level 28 with maxed destinys, and wants to TR the obtain a heroic TR. IF they WANT to get the epic TR past lives, then they go with the new Epic TR's. The Epic TR's could have the advantage of counting as both a Heroic and Epic TR. Simple enough in my mind.

    *prepares for the onslaught of backlash*
    You're entitled. It's just not as easy as you think it is and I'm not saying that as an insult. I'm still writing up some detailed feedback that will hopefully be considered. Hey, at least you didn't come on here and call people whiners as some others have done. So thanks for not doing that.
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  20. #1000
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urgforum View Post
    Allowing Heroic TR to continue working the way TR currently does isn't an incentive to avoid epic level play.
    Funny you should say that!

    The thing I enjoy most is the 3-11 quests... although my favourite quest in the whole game is "lords of dust" - because I have been a gnomon fan forever! (how else can I use my Halfling Bane weapons... (they are explicitly banned from Guild PVP)).

    I have... after 8 lives finally been persuaded to do epic stuff (10 days ago or so)... start farming destinies.... and now this news.
    So it is back to ->20 and TR for the foreseeable future... but this isn't what I paid for. Any chance of my money back?

    EDIT: It would be really helpful to hear what the devs are trying to achieve? Do they want to make things more fun? Do they want to be able to sell more store items? Do they want to level the playing field for the massive(??) influx of new players because of FR content and NWO suckage?

    I am all in favour of more communication, but this has been presented much as a "FACT"... with an included deadline (U20). Past experience has shown that even the major bugs seen on LAM have made it to Live... so I think the dev team can understand we don't take their "nothing is set in stone" seriously. They have a lot of work to do to get over that reputation... and the fact that some of the DDO community team seem to be spending more time on other turbine forums does nothing to make me feel better.

    If DDO is going into caretaker mode.... then so be it. Just don't ruin it all for us with lots of new, hastily (what is the timeframe between now - allegedly only in the "talking about" phase - and U20???) constructed stuff. Those of us that are playing the game, are playing it how it is.
    Last edited by AlmGhandi; 06-15-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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