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  1. #941
    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
    Thank you. I'm confident that this early dialogue will help us to all get where we want to be. Please pass on much thanks to the team for stepping into the frying pan.

  2. #942
    Community Member abrownbear9108's Avatar
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    what will be happening in regards to people who have bought Keys of Fate to unlock destiny's without having to grind the lvls of the linking destiny's? by that i mean, will the keys get refunded on TR or lost completely or will they be preserved the same as tomes?

    Edit: i havent previously searched for info on this and didnt want to read through 45+ pages to try to find info

  3. #943
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Losing all my ed xp when I tr will either make me not tr anymore or I will stop playing the game.
    This is very bad idea, turbine trying to go the easy way and hurt players.

  4. #944
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    what will be happening in regards to people who have bought Keys of Fate to unlock destiny's without having to grind the lvls of the linking destiny's? by that i mean, will the keys get refunded on TR or lost completely or will they be preserved the same as tomes?

    Edit: i havent previously searched for info on this and didnt want to read through 45+ pages to try to find information

    So far as I have seen there have been no responses to how keys of fate will be handled

  5. #945
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post

    Turbine is working pretty hard to craft a far more complicated system than would seem indicated. Given that excess complexity, one does have to ask what are the additional considerations which would lead to such contortions? Possibilities include

    1) Trying to level the playing field between new and veteran players, by resetting as much veteran player progress as you think you can get away with.

    2) Trying to generate additional grind, likely to offset declining revenue associated with a declining game population over the last year.
    To me this, as well as how the enhancement pass is being presented, seems to indicate DDO is going into caretaker mode. This just seems like an attempt to build a giant hamster wheel to try to replace the need for new content. While the enhancement alpha seems to be a case of the devs being told to take everything they have worked on towards enhancements and cram it into the matrix left over from ED development, with minimal time wasted on adjusting that matrix, and get it out.

    I'm guessing once these things are done most DDO systems and playable content developers will be working on other games with just enough left to keep DDO a viable venue to sell store items.

  6. #946
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    I think losing unbonded destinies is a great way to expand the playerbase.

    Here is a suggestion that builds on that:

    In the TR revamp start granting "bonded past life feats." On your first TR in the new system convert "unbonded past life feats" into 1 starting rank per past life. Completionists will rejoice at the free xp that makes their first follow up TR fly by.

  7. #947
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    Default would like feedback on my thoughts

    What if we were allowed to do these epic TRs with reduced xp.? Then we could do the life while playing the content we actually enjoy.

    I think that would also possibly have a few positive effects on the game as a whole.

    1) the people who refuse to TR because of the grind would be more inclined to do it.

    2) those new players who cant get a group because most TRs with multiple lives wont take them because of possible xp loss from them dying, or because it may slow them down on the mega xp grind would be more welcome.

    3) We could play what content we enjoy without significant grinding of the same quests over and over and over.

    4) adventures that people may find fun, but not worth the xp to do them may get visited again.

  8. #948
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Yes, there is *something* wrong with it.

    In standard RPG conceptualization, character development is given in stages called "levels" because they want characters (and NPCs) of a similar level to be able to play together and against each other in a meaningful manner. Past lives circumvent this system. If you have had 28 prior lives, when you are level "11" you are REALLY level 20, and when you are level 20, with full EDs and everything else, you are REALLY level 40 on a relative scale.

    Admittedly, they have also made a system where running an elite level "11" quest is REALLY level 16, and so forth, but I don't think it takes much logic at all to rip that system to shreds. Typically, the argument that occurs in an MMO is about lateral (diversity of mechanics) character development versus vertical gear/power treadmills. It's very seldom a debate about being able to circumvent gameplay entirely through poorly conceived mechanics like past lives. DDO is a very "special" place.
    As with a number of your posts, I don't really get the point you're trying to make.

    Einstein hit the relativity thing square on the head, so I'll apologise if I'm not following your version quite so clearly.

    If you're trying to reveal to us that DDO isn't 100% true to old school D&D in terms of creature HD, especially on higher difficulties, then that news is 7 years old and that ship sailed a long time ago.

    If you completely disagree with the whole notion of Epic TRing then you'll be happy to sign up to my previous proposal that no content in the game should be scaled on the assumption that you have any ED Past lives and that the whole thing should remain 100% optional. Those that want to invest the time can do so freely, and those that don't won't be disadvantaged in any way.

  9. #949
    Uber Completionist luvirini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).
    in parts:
    With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP
    So will not TR any character with epic XP unless the epic TR bonds all destinies XP at once, then will likely done ONE epic TR on few characters.

    but the character will be compensated for the burned XP
    Not an issue, as the compensation of few ranks in the beginning is totally meaningless half an hour saved (as you need to get your coin lord and house K favor early on anyway so getting few ranks will not help), so the compensation is simply not worth it.

    In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats.
    So please allow us to do this then, without losing existing ED progress.

    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play
    The incentive today to avoid epic play is the stupid epic quests, not rewards, EDs give nice rewards if one played epic quests. So unless you make 50 more epic quests in the expansion to get the variety we have in heroic play.. it is not going to change much.

    You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat).
    And yet there are quite many characters with ED xp that are mostly played in 1-20 content, you are trying to force those characters to play ONLY level 1-20 content and Never epics and there is no incentive ever for such to play any epic quest after that.

    Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).
    That would require me to play quite many of those stupid epic quests.

    If a single epic TR allows me to lock all destinies then will likely hate it but play then to 28 once and then stay in the 1-20 game as no reason ever to play any epic quests after that.

    If a single epic TR will not lock all destinies XP then no character that has epic XP will likely even again TR and will be saying in 1-20 game with the characters that do not have any epic XP as they have no incentive to ever go above either so they will stop at 20 or be TRed from there if I feel like still playing after my completionist cannot be played further.


    So lets look at my characters with epic xp:

    My completionist: Level 15 (17th life now) with quite many EDs(6?) at level 4.
    Current system: TRing every time a new destiny hits level 4, then next round take them from 4 to cap.
    Proposed system: If the epic TR locks all epic XP for all destinies will epic TR once and then always TR immediately after reaching 20, not bothering with more epic quests ever as most epic quests are just boring.(yey! really "epic" quest when enemies have 20000 hit points instead of 200, but act exactly the same)
    If epic TR only locks only one destiny xp: will do a last life(greeting the expansion about level 1) and then be shelved.

    My wizard/rogue 25(third life) with most epic destinies at 4-5:
    Current system: eventually planning to TR to get third wizard past life, no special hurry as epic play is boring so not much played as instakills are all broken one way or another today.
    Proposed system:Never TR again, unless the epic TR will Lock the epic XP of all destinies. So will likely greet the expansion at level 1 and eventually played up to 20 then likely stuck there.

    My sorcerer 25(first life), few(4?) destinies at 4-5:
    Current system: not played much because epics are boring and sorcerers are broken with the spell crit thing.
    Propsed system: Not TRing either and not running either.

    My wizard/rogue 22(first life) one destiny at 4 and some other at 3 or similar:
    Current system: eventually planning to TR to get wizard past lifes, no special hurry as epic play is boring so not much played as instakills are all broken one way or another today.
    Proposed system:Never TR again, unless the epic TR will Lock the epic XP of all destinies and in that case the TR will likely be in few years. So will likely greet the expansion at level 1 and eventually played up to about 20 then likely stuck there.

    My wizard/rogue 19(second life) one destiny at 4 and some other at 3 or similar:
    Current system: eventually planning to TR to get wizard past lifes, no special hurry as epic play is boring so not much played as instakills are all broken one way or another today.
    Proposed system:Never TR again, unless the epic TR will Lock the epic XP of all destinies and in that case the TR will likely be in few years. So will likely greet the expansion at level 1 and eventually played up to about 20 then likely stuck there.

    My paladin/fighter 20(first life): one destiny at 4:
    Current system: eventually TR to get a better paladin build and paladin past life.
    Proposed system:Never TR again, unless the epic TR will Lock the epic XP of all destinies and in that case the TR will likely be in few years. So will likely greet the expansion at level 1 and eventually played up to about 20 again then likely stuck there again as currently.

    My bard/barbarian/rogue 23 (first life): one destiny 5, other 2:
    Current system: Not playing, as bards are kind of really boring in epics.
    Proposed system: same.

    And after they are all back at 20.. (few months), I guess it is back to making new alts, the thing that TR:ing fixed for me. and once the maximum number of character slots reached, I guess it is time to go play some other game.

    Currently I have been having fun TRing my completionist, as there are loads of quests at lower levels and only very few epic quests that feel the same.

  10. #950
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Perhaps you aren't concerned that when you TR you will no longer have access to those other EDs that you earned, but I will. No, this will not do it for me. I want to keep what I already earned and was told would not go away.
    And if they give us the Heroic TR system exactly as it is right now, then you have that, and Turbine are true to what you were previously told.

    And if you choose to engage in a new Epic TR system then you are clear on the costs involved.

    This seems like the most sensible solution any way you look at it - let people continue to do what they've been doing unaffected by any changes, or allow people to take part in a new system where the costs are clear upfront. Win-win.

  11. #951
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    To me this, as well as how the enhancement pass is being presented, seems to indicate DDO is going into caretaker mode.
    Because every product that goes into a non-developmental maintenance-only phase invest heavily in revising their enhancement system, new expansions and introduce new systems for TRing. Gotcha.

  12. #952
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    My 2cp on the TR changes.

    Epic Reincarnation:

    - Once a destiny is bonded, it remains bonded. (Per system described, less possible "advantage" per destiny bonded)

    Heroic Reincarnation:

    - Provide an option to trade ED experience on a per ED basis at snowy side Korthos.

    The vendor would be amongst the other trainers and be an Epic Retrainer.

    Possible ideas would be to have a slider/percentage on each available destiny or a binary button.

    - This would provide the possibility of releveling an Epic Destiny appropriate for the class. Ex. Monk heroic TRs and trades in some GMoF ED experience to speed up Korthos time and be able to recoup that experience after 20. All other destinies are left as-is. When he/she hits 20 they can recap GMoF and play a class focused/more enjoyable class destiny pair for experience.

    If only available at snowy side, then a player has a cut off point that they can control.
    - Players debating the advantage can run snowy korthos (without access to TR cache gear) and gain experience to cover 1 to 3 or 4. (Part of the concern being trading 90k ED experience (Level 5 rank) for 1,100 heroic experience (rank at level 1))
    - Players not interested in trading in destiny experience can simply avoid the trainer or swap to sunny side Korthos.
    - The slider would give the player the ability to get some use out of Level 5 rank 5 experience on TR since there is currently no benefit to "going to 6."
    - As more destinies are bonded, those sliders are no longer available.

    - Need to add more runway? Add more classes/destinies or add an orthogonal advancement system. (See Mathom, profession systems, housing/trophies etc.)

    -----

    I would ask that any more instances of changing an established system allow the player to opt in/out where feasible.

    Things like weapon speed to double strike, twf off hand chance, helplessness, vorpal, disease/poison immunity, fortification, leaving the die system (to hit changes) has taken established features/rules and thrown them out the window. Those changes have come with a cost that the player base feels more than the dev team.

  13. #953
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    Right now nobody is going to TR anymore ( except upon reaching 20 ) because they don't want to get shafted of their destinies.
    You're just planning on killing TR ( heroic and epic... well epic will be stillborn, and heroic will be murdered )
    Well actually, I think they are trying to kill heroic Tr as it's, in their minds, an obsolete system that circumvents playing the end game. As far as epic TR goes, they seem to be going for an all or nothing approach, hoping players mostly choose the all option. TRing will no longer be something players do as the mood hits them, at least not until they have done it enough to have all destinies bonded. They will basically have to choose to either play to TR or go ahead and do the destinies and forgo ever TRing. After all, playing their game is serious business with no room for doing what you feel like doing, just what the system designates for you to do.

  14. #954
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    I gotta admit i am quite glad someone liked my idea about new past life rewards, or just had a very similar one...

    On the other hand, i must ask (BETTER if it was already asked) : no bugfixes?
    How to revamp past life reward system <--- working again
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.
    Developers should fix this

  15. #955
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If you're trying to reveal to us that DDO isn't 100% true to old school D&D...
    Nope. It has nothing to do with D&D mechanics in particular, and that concept was what tripped you up on being able to understand what I wrote. This is about the core nature of RPGs in general, even brand new ones fresh off the presses. Leveling systems are only useful and necessary if they separate characters and NPCs by power level. If a character's level does not predict its power, there is zero need for levels. All ability and skill increases could be done as "tomes." You should ask yourself why you yourself might look and care about a character's level. What is wrong with overpowered loot and past lives is, precisely, that you can no longer tell by a character's level what its power level is likely to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    ...then you'll be happy to sign up to my previous proposal that no content in the game should be scaled on the assumption that you have any ED Past lives and that the whole thing should remain 100% optional...
    If I were currently a designer on an MMO, and I read this from a player, I would be strongly tempted to filter anything else that person had to say on any gaming subject. You are basically saying "let's have GOD mode, but only for the people that really want it." It's the people that WANT god mode that are primarily the reason you would want to prevent having such an option.

  16. #956
    Community Member Loraven's Avatar
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    Default Orien Doob

    "Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind"

    am I missing something? so far all epic levels grow at same exp rate regardless of which life you're on...do you mean the heroic 3rd life & beyond won't need 2 mill to 20? whew yay! I'm a completionist on my 6th life and I've been playing for 3 years. I've got a full-time job sadly, will I have to get to lvl 28 now or lose my ED's? Really? :P

  17. #957
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    This is still an extremely poor option. Compensation of "Heroic" Exp to the pain of levelling through destinies in their current tree based system is painful and just not fun. Epic should restart at level 20 regardless, keeping it completely separate from heroic. Having to open up spheres just to reach whatever destiny you want is just plain annoying, as well. Give us the choice of the ED we want the past life of and have us start at level 20 with that entire sphere reset. Leave the others intact. Don't bother with "bonded" destinies.
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  18. #958
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Cordovan, I have a lot of respect for you and the effort you put into your work here. However, reading Piloto's quote above yours I can only gather that no matter what we say on these forums, the Epic Destiny xp loss is going to happen with TR's. There is no mention in his post about other possibilities, only that different forms of compensation for Epic Destiny xp loss are being considered. At least, that's how I read it.
    There is no free lunch.

  19. #959
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Because every product that goes into a non-developmental maintenance-only phase invest heavily in revising their enhancement system, new expansions and introduce new systems for TRing. Gotcha.
    I would hardly call the paltry 'xpack' content or the threadbare enhancement pass a heavy investment. They had longer then many players have played the game to work on the enhancement pass and it still does not even have unique racial PrEs or three+ PrEs per class as described in the initial design goal years ago. This is just them putting a few man hours into pushing it out. Same goes for the xpack...the amount of content is not very impressive at all and taken over the development time from gianthold's development cycle (read ONE one room raid added for an update) to the time the xpack releases you have 14 new quests and one new one room raid. Not exactly a short period of time since High Road to xpack release (with high road being hardly massive either and the pack before being equally paltry)

    I am fully convinced that DDO has for some time been in it's winding down phase and is now entering the milking the diehards who will not leave no matter what you do phase.
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  20. #960
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Well actually, I think they are trying to kill heroic Tr as it's, in their minds, an obsolete system that circumvents playing the end game. As far as epic TR goes, they seem to be going for an all or nothing approach, hoping players mostly choose the all option. TRing will no longer be something players do as the mood hits them, at least not until they have done it enough to have all destinies bonded. They will basically have to choose to either play to TR or go ahead and do the destinies and forgo ever TRing. After all, playing their game is serious business with no room for doing what you feel like doing, just what the system designates for you to do.
    it does seem like they are killing off heroic TR, doesn't it? I mean, with Skipping Stones and the proposed TR system, I could think up some juicy tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.

    I would be surprised if that really is the case though. TRing I know must be a big money maker for Turbine. theres a lot of people who buy, in varying quantities, xp pots, hearts of wood, bank space for extra storage, gold seal hires, cakes, etc . if Turbine wants to focus more on end game and expansions and keep getting players to spend money on that stuff, than they would need to do a better job across the board with quality, promises, quantity and grind. players would need and want to stay at end game, but we always want our characters to be more powerful, so we want TRing to always be an option that makes sense. the boredom, I believe, would settle in much faster for a lot of players because Turbine cant grind out content fast enough.

    I only need 3 more fate points to finish ED farming. prior to that I leveled myself on hard BB from 20-25. by 25 I had ran most of the quests in the game and my character is flagged for every raid, except LOB/MA. prior to that I spent 9 months on a TR train gaining 7 lives with already 2 lives from the start. up until the ED farming, I was playing every day, all night. I have a lot of catching up to do in the gear department, but if im forced to weigh the pros and cons of TRing, ill choose not to TR and eventually get bored after im "caught up". I suspect that would be pretty much the case for a lot of people by feeling it wouldn't be worth the trouble of TRing. a lot of people like to TR and a lot of people TR for that extra character power. I wonder how many power gamers it would take to keep DDO going when, I believe, the average player wont find TRing to be worth it and get bored eventually at "end game"?

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