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  1. #921
    Community Member merentha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    The bold portion is what I'm responding to at this point. This idea isn't too horrible for someone wanting to farm a past life towards completionist but they don't look forward to playing the class (due to style preference, gear, etc). You could stay at cap and farm the XP to shoot to 20 in advance via destinies in a class you like, then TR hit 20 and at that point Heroic TR (you'd not lose ED xp at this point since you didn't farm it). This would be one way to burn a Bard (or caster life) for a melee player working towards completionist.

    I certainly hope this spends a couple months on Lamannia and we can use the Dojo to experiment with the Epic and Heroic TR with the 'burned' destiny xp towards heroic xp on next life idea (assuming I am understanding any of this).
    Last edited by merentha; 06-14-2013 at 06:38 PM. Reason: last follow up thoughts

  2. #922
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejafu View Post
    Okay, so here's my perspective at least: If you can make sure that we keep already-earned Fate Points (maybe grant us a special Tome of Fate +however many fate points we've earned so far that's automatically deposited in our inventory after TR), then my main issue with wiping the ED XP is solved. Actually, scratch that - it won't just be solved, I'll be thrilled. A way to earn more Fate Points? YES! Please! Those are the primary reason by far that I ground out all those EDs, let me keep them (and let me earn even more), and I'll be there with bells on.
    Perhaps you aren't concerned that when you TR you will no longer have access to those other EDs that you earned, but I will. No, this will not do it for me. I want to keep what I already earned and was told would not go away.

  3. #923
    Community Member magn0liafan's Avatar
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    This being what you were referencing...
    We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character.
    with this statement....
    Quote Originally Posted by merentha View Post
    The bold portion is what I'm responding to at this point. This idea isn't too horrible for someone wanting to farm a past life towards completionist but they don't look forward to playing the class (due to style preference, gear, etc). You could stay at cap and farm the XP to shoot to 20 in advance via destinies in a class you like, then TR hit 20 and at that point Heroic TR (you'd not lose ED xp at this point since you didn't farm it). This would be one way to burn a Bard (or caster life) for a melee player working towards completionist.
    solicits my response:

    Here's the thing, though. There are people who are still working on Completionist that have farmed out all of the Epic Destines for Fate Points. The so called "advantage" isn't really that much of an advantage, as they'd have to regrind those Epic Destines once again. I've done number crunching previously in this thread, using what seems to be the most common "grinding" place for Epic Destines: The House of Rusted Blades. Some people who are soloing this take up to 7 minutes to complete. It Provides (on Elite) 14,327 XP. To Grind using those figures for XP and time, as well as the requirement of 21.78 MILLION XP needed for all 11 of the Epic Destinies, it works out to roughly 7 days, 9 hours, and 22 minutes of gameplay.

    You're telling me that there's nothing wrong with people losing that?
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  4. #924
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You will not get an answer to this question.
    I know....
    Last edited by Citzen_Gkar; 06-14-2013 at 07:02 PM. Reason: I know, I shouldn't put Jerry on the spot like that when we know the truth...

  5. #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Can you give one example where the Devs have changed their course of action after they have stated more than once that they are moving in a certain direction? I cannot not. Not once.
    Actually I can. The best example is the change to the Death Penalty. While they were set in stone that the old XP death penalty would be replaced with something else, they made substantial changes to their plans for both item damage and debuff and turned something completely gamebreaking into something that was reasonable, and in its own way an interesting mechanic (just picture getting permanent damage on your raid items because you died, that was originally possible)

    Now I don't know of course if any of those devs still work at Turbine....but I hope that someone in that organization the realization that cooperating with players can achieve the results the devs want while actually making it playable.

  6. #926
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    Now I don't know of course if any of those devs still work at Turbine....but I hope that someone in that organization the realization that cooperating with players can achieve the results the devs want while actually making it playable.
    Yes, because fixing the death penalty in Module 6, something players would have highly promoted, saved the game from a long decline (3 whole updates later) to the point that they decided to go free-to-play (something to which most players objected). Oh, and when they went free-to-play they "dropped" in popularity to the third most popular MMO of the time.

    "Cooperating" with players is done on a sincere as well as superficial level in all sorts of games and most every MMO. It rarely turns out to be a good idea, especially because I don't agree with you about what those changes should be.

  7. #927
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Can you give one example where the Devs have changed their course of action after they have stated more than once that they are moving in a certain direction?

    Cannith Crafting. Although it wasn't an improvement. (you can take paralyzing off of your kama and put it... sigh.. I can't even say it without tearing up)

    Madstone boots.

    Reducing the blade damage in Shroud after it was fixed to WAI.

    After a few more beers, I'm sure I could think of more.


    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    I cannot not. Not once. And so far when have the original post and two additional posts stating that they will continue in the direction that 99% of the feedback has been negative.

    Hyperbole does not help your cause, it undermines it. 99% of the feedback has not been 'negative.' There are over a dozen posters who have stated they like certain elements of the proposed TR changes or don't mind the changes. But there have been numerous posts by the same posters saying the same thing over and over and attacking anyone who dares offer an opinion contrary to theirs (what else is new).


    Pro tip: Calling people names and yelling louder does not make one's argument better, but it does speak volumes about the person doing so.
    Last edited by Postumus; 06-14-2013 at 07:22 PM.

  8. #928
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).
    Well goodie, I get to trade xp that for a large part were a real pain to gain as it was in a destiny that was near worthless to my build, for xp that are actually fun to gain. Just so next life I only have to do 10/11's of that painful grind over to get back to where I was. This would actually make it more likely that I would skip actually playing epic levels. While I might level through them, I certainly see little reason to do more than that as recapping any unbonded destinies to get the twists to do so every life is simply not appealing to me.


    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    It seems to me you are making a system that only works for those at the extremes. For those who never TR it changes nothing. For those who, basically play just to TR it works out sort of okay as just getting back to cap can viably be done without twists.

    But for those of us that are more likely to TR more for a change of pace than anything else, it really sucks. We basically are being given the option to trade what we actually want to do, take a break from end game, for having to redo what we really don't, redo all those off destinies we need to get our twists back.

    Allowing heroic TRing to retain EDs will give us the option to take a break without the atrocious cost of regrinding all those off destinies when the break is over. But it seems you are more worried about what content devourers will be capable of doing with the system than you are what effect it has on the game play of your more mainstream customers.

    Of course, reforming the whole ED grind could also be a good way to solve this problem. Get rid of the silly links between destinies and restrictions on where one can start and allow anyone to access any destiny at any time. Lock in fate points once earned, though not necessarily allowing the reuse of the same destiny levels to earn more.

    With this, after I get back from my break I would only need to re-level those destinies I plan to use and partially re-level those I plan to just use twists from.

  9. #929
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post

    Pro tip: Calling people names and yelling louder does not make one's argument better, but it does speak volumes about the person doing so.
    pot kettle

    You insult everyone that maxed ed's in most of your posts. You are one of the most hypocritical posters in this thread.

  10. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Yes, because fixing the death penalty in Module 6, something players would have highly promoted, saved the game from a long decline (3 whole updates later) to the point that they decided to go free-to-play (something to which most players objected). Oh, and when they went free-to-play they "dropped" in popularity to the third most popular MMO of the time.

    "Cooperating" with players is done on a sincere as well as superficial level in all sorts of games and most every MMO. It rarely turns out to be a good idea, especially because I don't agree with you about what those changes should be.
    You do know what caused the Long Silence right? It had nothing to do with the game itself.

  11. #931
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    You do know what caused the Long Silence right? It had nothing to do with the game itself.
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  12. #932
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Fact: when the producer comes out and says something, historically it is too damn late to make any changes.

    So what did you expect, esp when it is NOT stated at any time until right now that it is up for discussion?
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 06-14-2013 at 07:28 PM.

  13. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post

    Now I don't know of course if any of those devs still work at Turbine....but I hope that someone in that organization the realization that cooperating with players can achieve the results the devs want while actually making it playable.

    But cooperate with which players? The ones who screech loudest on the forums? Sometimes they make concessions to those players (see Madstone boots). They also make changes all the time based on player feedback forum people never see. That, too, is a form of cooperation.


    I think it is a bit silly to think people just sit in an ivory tower and dream up ways to scerw over the player population, but yet there are NUMEROUS posts (including this very thread) where players make this claim. Should Turbine listen to them? How much credence does one give the crazy guy with the sandwich board screaming about the end of the world? More than the guy with a calm, reasoned reply?


    I think Turbine will listen to the feedback, which they said they are doing (they solicited after all), but they certainly won't make every single change demanded in this thread (many which conflict). But if they even change a few things, that's cooperation isn't it? I think they will make some changes, but I also hope they don't just cater to a small crowd of power grinders simply because they are yelling the loudest. Again.

  14. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    Fact: when the producer comes out and says something, historically it is too damn late to make any changes.

    So what did you expect, esp when it is NOT stated at any time until right now that it is up for discussion?
    Additional fact:

    And when the only dev response so far before the mod response was basically "So we are open to talk about what you should get in exchange for losing all your XP/ED XP" that doesn't make you feel like the first part was mutable.

  15. #935
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post

    "Cooperating" with players is done on a sincere as well as superficial level in all sorts of games and most every MMO. It rarely turns out to be a good idea, especially because I don't agree with you about what those changes should be.
    Absolutely.

  16. #936
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    Default issues with this idea

    I have been playing since this game was new. Never have I felt the need to post anything on the forums before this proposed change.

    Ok now here are some concerns I have about this system.

    1) The player base has been told that epic destinies were separate from level period. not just heroic xp but from heroic level but also epic level.

    2) The end game was designed to be played with those epic destinies and twists of fate. Meaning that most epic elite content is out of reach to anyone not having those.

    3) When I spend the time to go through a past life no matter what it is I get a past life feat for that then I only lose that experience and I go on to play as something totally different.

    The problems I see with this and how it will work are that if I went through the time doing all of the destinies then I get a pst life for one and lose the rest of them. I don't come back as something totally different with a little more power. I come back as something maybe the same and maybe different but with a ton less power. at which point I receive a past life for one of the destinies I already did. This makes no sense to me at all.

    I would be willing to work with something where I would lose the destiny I want the past life in, but not this.

    Only way I can see that it would make sense to make me grind the xp to hit 20 again then grind the xp to hit 28 and start over while only gaining the past life for one destiny is a reversal of the way the xp curve works for TRs as it is. Maybe I might do it if I could do lives for less xp than it takes a first life toon. I have been there I have done that I do it over again all the time. I have incentive under current system to do so. Under proposed system I have no more incentive to do it seeing as I will be less powerful when I reach 20 again.

    Side note why does it take more experience to do what we have already done than it takes the first time? Seemed like a backwards mechanic anyway to begin with.

  17. #937
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    Additional fact:

    And when the only dev response so far before the mod response was basically "So we are open to talk about what you should get in exchange for losing all your XP/ED XP" that doesn't make you feel like the first part was mutable.
    Not when it feels like E3 for Turbine.

    Oh crude, we screwed up. What can we do now?

    Just let it happen, Gkar. It will be over soon.

  18. #938
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    pot kettle

    You insult everyone that maxed ed's in most of your posts.

    Nope, not even once. If you infer insult from a statement like "I have no sympathy for people who ran rusted blades 10,000 times and choose to TR" that is YOUR issue.


    Go back and look at your last three posts responding to me: personal attack, personal attack, personal attack and fabrication. You are acting like someone who wants to get this thread closed. If you keep up with the personal attacks it probably will be.

  19. #939
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir_smacks_alot View Post
    I have been playing since this game was new. Never have I felt the need to post anything on the forums before this proposed change.

    Ok now here are some concerns I have about this system.

    1) The player base has been told that epic destinies were separate from level period. not just heroic xp but from heroic level but also epic level.

    2) The end game was designed to be played with those epic destinies and twists of fate. Meaning that most epic elite content is out of reach to anyone not having those.

    3) When I spend the time to go through a past life no matter what it is I get a past life feat for that then I only lose that experience and I go on to play as something totally different.

    The problems I see with this and how it will work are that if I went through the time doing all of the destinies then I get a pst life for one and lose the rest of them. I don't come back as something totally different with a little more power. I come back as something maybe the same and maybe different but with a ton less power. at which point I receive a past life for one of the destinies I already did. This makes no sense to me at all.

    I would be willing to work with something where I would lose the destiny I want the past life in, but not this.

    Only way I can see that it would make sense to make me grind the xp to hit 20 again then grind the xp to hit 28 and start over while only gaining the past life for one destiny is a reversal of the way the xp curve works for TRs as it is. Maybe I might do it if I could do lives for less xp than it takes a first life toon. I have been there I have done that I do it over again all the time. I have incentive under current system to do so. Under proposed system I have no more incentive to do it seeing as I will be less powerful when I reach 20 again.

    Side note why does it take more experience to do what we have already done than it takes the first time? Seemed like a backwards mechanic anyway to begin with.

    GREAT points.

  20. #940
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    It has been made clear that the devs are paying attention to this thread.

    It is also clear that the elephant in the room is the undercompensated loss of unbound ED XP.

    I am guessing that the devs have a good reason for wanting to wipe pre-existing ED XP, while also providing a way to make it permanent once again. :@

    So, compensate each FIRST ETR with 1M XP Stones for every one million unbound ED XP, and put them in the TR cache. BtC and usable only on said character, but they can be moved to normal storage, and unused stones shall survive subsequent TR's; the player can spend them when he/she will.

    This should silence the majority of the objections to the new TR mechanic.

    (But then, should and would don't build any bridges. )
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