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  1. #841
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArcaneArcher52689 View Post
    Maybe if posts like this, that look like they were written by an angry child, weren't here, they wouldn't have to treat us that way? I've seen plenty (plenty!) of perfectly reasonable, well thought out responses in this thread. But this is the equivalent of going into McDonald's and yelling your head off because thy screwed up your meal. Is it bad? Yes. Is it their fault? Probably. Do you have to act that way? No. Could you accomplish just as much, if not more by being polite? Probably.

    Also, piloto might not be responsible for fate point code. Or the fate point code in its current implementation may not support the carrying over of "earned" fate points, and they are currently trying to rewrite/reimplement the code to make it work. I'm guessing store bought fate points carry over because their a tag marked on your character, similar to store bought inventory, or even stat tomes.
    While complete raging doesn't fix anything neither does being a turbine apologist. Blaming players like you are is a horrible thing to do.

  2. #842

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    Since directly explaining why this proposed mechanic is bad, maybe an anecdote will help explain it:

    My current alt is a first life fighter/cleric, who intends to use Legendary Dreadnought while twisting in Sense Weakness, Rejuvenation cocoon, and brace for impact. That's a 4/1/1 twist spread, meaning I need 45 destiny levels. With 11 destinies that's level 4 (1.08 million xp each) in 10 of them with my main destiny capped. As a fighter I plan on 3 fighter past lives for +3 tactical dc. He's currently level 18, about to hit 20.

    So since I hate rusted blades/impossible demands farming so much -- there isn't a single minute's worth of fun in the 18 solid hours it takes to farm that much destiny xp -- I'd planned to do his destiny farming differently. 3 million to cap at 25, I decided to do 3 destinies to 4 each life. That's just enough to get all my fates set up just as I hit 25 on his final life. Perfect plan, or so I thought.

    Every variation of the proposed change ruins this plan. If I'm not on his final life when the change goes live I lose all my destinies, forcing me back to the only part of this game I legitimately hate: destiny farming for the sake of destiny farming.

    Bonding doesn't help me in the slightest. If I decided to just wait on this, his first life, and just get him to cap with LD capped and wait to bond it and then do my first tr, that means I have to cap every destiny I want to mine for fate points. That's DOUBLE the xp. Instead of 1,080,000 xp to get to level 4, I now have to get 1,900,000 to get to level 5. I have never once gone past 4 in a destiny solely for fate points, AND I NEVER WILL. 15 fate points is all I get to work with because doubling the xp required for 1 more destiny level is ridiculously not worth my time.

    The proposed system -- and every variation of it the devs have hinted at -- utterly ruin the game for me. Let me put it this way: I WANT to start every tr at level 1 with 0 xp, because I WANT to play all content each life. That's what makes the game fun for me.

    The only acceptable way for me to tr higher than level 1 with 0 xp would be an epic tr where I choose a destiny (that I fully cap with 1.9 million xp) to get a past life from, that one destiny gets zeroed while all my other destinies remain unchanged. I then start the new life back at level 20 with 0 epic xp. That's it. That's the list.

    There are many ways to implement a tr system, but two dealbreakers for me are: 1) I do not want to start higher than level 1, and 2) I do not view losing my fate points as a viable path. If I lose fate points, I"M NOT DOING IT.

  3. #843
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    . One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.
    I've 20-capped around 20 characters and done just as many TR lives. I'm no stranger to grinding, but this scenario would result in me never TRing any character with ED xp. 3 Reasons:


    1. When I TR I want to start at level one. I want to play the game as a new character. I want to run the content of DDO. Actual content. Quests. Fun stuff. Actually playing the game instead of sitting at a drawing board.
    2. I don't want to push a button and magically gain a past life feat and free XP. I don't want to skip 99% of the game's content. I don't want to go back to grinding out ED xp running the same quest 200 times. The epic past life feat could be god-mode and it still wouldn't be worth it.
    3. There is not nearly enough epic content to justify skipping all heroic content. Thats just a fact. This system would work, and would be accepted by 99% of the whole DDO community if we get around 50 new epic quests and 10 raids to actually support real endgame play and the ED xp requirements.


    I'll make the same suggestion countless others have, and what most of the DDO community would logically think and epic TR means:

    -reset all heroic xp
    -reset one destiny + epic xp
    -get a heroic pastlife
    -get an epic destiny past life

    Epic advantage and bonding... kill them with fire... plz...
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  4. #844
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I'm wondering if our reaction is catching them by surprise?

    Did they think this would be embraced as a good idea?
    As should be evident to anyone who has read many of my posts, I have a fairly low opinion of the DDO development team. Having said that, even I don't believe they are being taken by surprise by the response they are getting. They knew exactly what kind of feedback they would get, and had a game plan up front for dealing with it.

    They have a final design in mind. They know exactly what they will, and will not, compromise on, and probably have a schedule for when they will announce any "concessions" they are willing to offer.

    Anyone who believes the development team was caught totally unaware of where this would lead must think that the development team is completely clueless.
    Last edited by GermanicusMaximus; 06-14-2013 at 03:40 PM.

  5. #845
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I

    The actually developers are not budging on the Heroic TR destroying ED XP. This is 100% not acceptable and a deal-breaker for many of us if you think we'd ever TR again.

    I'm sorry but there can be no bending on this issue.

  6. #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    You won't. You'll join the rest of us in not TRing anymore EVER.

    Until the game shuts down at least.
    Uh...I believe that's what I said originally... that plus, I'm not sure if there is enough to interest me at 21+ and only 21+ that I won't just quit. It's a shame to lose 2/3 of the game content, some of which I quite enjoy.

  7. #847
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    As should be evident to anyone who has read many of my posts, I have a fairly low opinion of the DDO development team. Having said that, even I don't believe they are being taken by surprise by the response they are getting. They knew exactly what kind of feedback they would get, and had a game plan up front for dealing with it.

    They have a final design in mind. They know exactly what they will, and will not, compromise on, and probably have a schedule for when they will announce any "concessions" they are willing to offer.

    Anyone who believes the development team was totally caught unaware of where this would lead must think that the development team is completely clueless.
    I'm honestly unsure I alternate constantly between:

    You being right and that any concessions are a conspiracy.

    They're completely clueless.

    Warner Brothers wants to have ddo lose money and close so they can use it as a tax write off and gain effective money that way.

  8. #848
    Community Member barecm's Avatar
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    Here is an idea.... How about leaving what is NOT broken alone and focus on what IS broken or not working? Focus on making all the epic destiny skills work right, release the enhancement pass we have been waiting years and years for, start chipping away at the litany of bugs and broken stuff that have been listed over and over again on these forums. You wonder why there is such a backlash to dumb ideas like proposed here in this thread, it is becuase there are so many other things that demand attention and we get a non-player friendly revamp of a system that isn't broken. It is frustrating to no end. We have not asked for and do not need this. More content, bug fixes, enhancement pass, epic destiny fixes. This is all stuff that VIPs like myself have been paying for in addition to the premium for the last expansion over the years that still don't work. Fix that them and then worry about reworking other aspects of the game that are not broken.
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  9. #849
    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffWatson View Post
    The news on TRing is horribly demoralising.

    What's the point of running Epics?
    Sure, most are fun to play, but what keeps most MMO players playing is the sense of accomplishment.

    XP? Lost when TRing.
    Loot? Level 28 adventures will probably have better loot.

    Losing all Destiny XP when doing a old-style TR is unacceptable.
    You really think getting a few thousand XP in exchange for millions of XP is remotely fair? Make it optional.

    Geoff.
    Demoralized is probably what I see most when people talk about this epic TR stuff. While I still really do appreciate turbine making an effort to communicate these types of changes well before they happen, the response post implying that only minor changes will be made is, as you say, demoralizing.
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  10. #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    While complete raging doesn't fix anything neither does being a turbine apologist. Blaming players like you are is a horrible thing to do.
    Actually, while I normally side with turbine on lots of things, I happen to agree that at the very least, heroic tr should not reset ED exp.

    That comment was specifically directed to the "stop treating us like children" remark. And sorry, many of the posts in this thread look like nothing more than children whining. It's another to take that out on someone. All I did was mention why we(the playerbase) might be treated that way, and why the response to fate points was the way it was.

    And if someone walked into the restaurant I was at screaming and carrying on, I might blame the restaurant for making a mistake, but I'd blame the customer for his/her behavior too.

  11. #851
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    It seems that you are wedded to the idea that the "reward" for your ED ranks must be Heroic ranks. I am not wedded to that idea - perhaps there are other perks that you can get instead. Or I read an idea of gaining an "item" that you can use at any point in Heroic leveling to give you X experience. That idea is something I was thinking about as well. Although I don't agree with it being a static number of XP no matter how many XP it took you to attain the ED rank in question. I think it should be a sliding scale.

    The point is that there can be other methods of compensation that might be more valuable to people who aren't trying to just grind past lives as quickly as possible. Maybe instead of only one compensation you could choose between one that supports quick grinding of Past Lives (like the Heroic Ranks) and one that supports someone who just wants to play the game.
    I'm all in favour of choices and options. Give us viable alternative and put it on the table. Please provide more specific details and we can discuss.

    It's clear from Piloto's last post that either he hasn't read the replies in this thread yet to see the overwhelming and justified outcry against their initial proposal to wipe ED XP on a Heroic TR, or they've read it and they don't really understand why we are all in agreement that this is a bad idea.

    So that tells me that, if we are to have any hope of providing alternatives, then we'll need to do some of the design work ourselves, rather than just rejecting their proposals and waiting on them to come up with an alternative. Please provide details of your solution.

  12. #852
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Please provide details of your solution.

    Scrap the whole project.

    Do nothing.

    That is much better than what is being proposed.

  13. #853
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Then let me ask you a direct question. If truly nothing is set in stone, are you willing to abandon the idea of losing all Epic XP on Epic and Heroic TR. Nothing else you say will lower the temperature because the posts so far indicate that the one dev kind enough to comment says he gets it but is 100% missing the point and is NOT getting what we are saying, at all.

  14. #854
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Then let me ask you a direct question. If truly nothing is set in stone, are you willing to abandon the idea of losing all Epic XP on Epic and Heroic TR. Nothing else you say will lower the temperature because the posts so far indicate that the one dev kind enough to comment says he gets it but is 100% missing the point and is NOT getting what we are saying, at all.
    You will not get an answer to this question.

  15. #855
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

    If your as set on wiping out player ED XP as this post makes it seam you are here are 3 things that might help you not totally ruin this game

    1) Keep Fate Points through TR.

    2) Some mechanic to make the ED grind fun. i.e. pass XP to a different destiny then the one you are actively using.

    3) Epic PL feat that are worth getting. e.g. +10% max hp bonus from each Sentinel, +5% Damage bonus from each Fury

    Do ALL of those making ETR appealing enough that there's no point in HTR and maybe you get lucky and don't loose to many people. Good Luck.

  16. #856

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.
    Thank you for chipping in again. Honestly, I think you had better equip yourselves with upgraded Pale Lavender Ioun Stones, Jewel Cloak and may be a Fire Shield: Cold spell as well since the passion heat in this thread is intense.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities [...]
    How about this for a possibility? Since people are passionate about not loosing Epic Destiny XP:
    Let people keep what they earned. Instead, disable the Epic Destiny abilities in trees that are unbound which is not supposed to be able to activate upon Epic Destiny Reincarnation until the right character levels are achieved?

    e.g. Tier 1 abilities requiring level 20+, Tier 2 abilities require 21, Tier 3 => 22, Tier 4 => 23 and so on. This is just an example. This way, there is a compromise between what players have earned versus what you are trying to achieve. This is just an example... may be make it total character Epic XP % based (i.e. XP after 20 not based on level)

    Perhaps making the Epic Advantage an optional choice. Only Compensating heroic XP for Epic Destiny XP and loose all those Epic Destiny XP earned which are unbound if the player choose to pick up Epic Advantage.

    For Heroic True Incarnation, the Epic Advantage option should be automatically turned off and the functionality will be verbatim to what is happening previously. Of course, the restrictions to use whatever ED ability already earned are still in place as per the e.g. above.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:
    1. [...]

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.
    Yes, please. I have characters that have purchased Tomes of Fate and would like to keep earned fate points if technologically possible.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    Perhaps you should buy yourselves some fire insurance before you make your proposal next week.
    Last edited by Tyrande; 06-14-2013 at 04:08 PM. Reason: preserve previous functionality mentioned

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  17. #857
    Community Member rest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.
    I don't believe you. Repeat:

    I DON'T BELIEVE YOU.

    How many times have we heard that, and still stuff is put out broken and ridiculous? You don't have any credibility anymore. Not with me, at any rate. And if this thread is any indication, not with a whole lot of people.

    Hey let's talk about the "alpha" enhancements getting partially installed on the live build, and your inability (or unwillingness) to do something about it. Why are spell crits still messed up? Why do clerics still have "obslete enhancement" or whatever the hell it's called?

    I think that all these proposed changes to the TR system are lame. They are penalizing players who were told BY THE HEAD DEVELOPER that Epic Destiny XP would persist through TRs and decided to max it out once, so they never had to do it again. Hell there was a bug where ED XP was lost via TRs and you all initiated a fix for it. So then you shouldn't have fixed it because you are planning to remove that XP on TR.

    You're not moving the goal line, you're changing the game. You're the kid who, when getting shot with a laser when playing with other kids, suddenly has a laser proof shield. You don't like the way people are playing "your" game, so you make it different in an effort to FORCE people to play how you want. Yeah. I get it. It's a game that you built and we play it but, because we DO play and are passionate about it, it's our game too.

    I really feel like you took a look at how people play the game and decided that "That's not how people are allowed to play! Let's change everything so it matches exactly with my vision." There's a oft-repeated phrase out there "No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy." At this point, I feel like you're treating your playing and paying customers are "the enemy". Sure you might have a great grand plan in your mind about how the game is going to work and how people are going to play it but people, being people, find ways to do what they want to do within the framework of the system you laid out. Until you start introducing arbitrary changes to force them to conform to how you think they should play (dungeon alert, "alpha" cleric enhancements et al.) the game.

    I will say that I'm glad there is more Turbine activity on the forum. I was starting to believe that everyone had left for all the other TB games, since there was a dearth of ANY Turbine activity on the forums. Be it from developers or our "community specialists". I put that in quotes because you have to interract with your community to become a specialist at it. Even the 3rd party places where I was very resistant to tread (twitter) has been quiet on the staff front.

  18. #858
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Can you give one example where the Devs have changed their course of action after they have stated more than once that they are moving in a certain direction? I cannot not. Not once. And so far when have the original post and two additional posts stating that they will continue in the direction that 99% of the feedback has been negative. Granted, Piloto's reply hasn't been completely condensing as "I or We know better than you the players want" that we voice disappointment in a certain little dev's weapon design....but it's pretty darn close.

  19. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Then let me ask you a direct question. If truly nothing is set in stone, are you willing to abandon the idea of losing all Epic XP on Epic and Heroic TR. Nothing else you say will lower the temperature because the posts so far indicate that the one dev kind enough to comment says he gets it but is 100% missing the point and is NOT getting what we are saying, at all.
    Exactly. The only other suggestion I've seen that would work is a 1:1 xp pool that all the lost ED xp goes into. This 1:1 xp pool could be used at the player's discretion for heroic, epic, or epic destiny progression.

    So yes, when we heroic TR we lose all ED xp. BUT if we want to we can level back to 20 normally and immediately empty that pool to level back up all of our Epic Destinies. Or if we'd rather do so we could use 4.3 million of that 20 million or so banked xp to get right back to 20, use another 4 or 5 million (or whatever it costs) to level directly to 28, and the remaining 12 million or so to unlock every epic destiny in the trees to level 3 or 4 if that's the route we wanted to go. Basically, the experience we earned playing the game the way Turbine intended should not be taken away. Not with a 2:1 deal. Not in a nothing deal. Nothing but returning all of the xp spent in farming in terrible destinies and either doing the same crappy quests over and over or doing glorified piking as the sorc with a spell set intended for Shiradi running in Legendary Dreadnaught.

    This suggestion was hinted at by a Turbine employee off the boards. They mentioned it as heroic xp only but that's a non-starter. But if for some reason Turbine absolutely has to wipe ED xp to fix some unknown exploits but can give us the xp points back in a 1-1 fashion to spend later on anything we want (with the hope on their part being that we'll burn it off on 4 heroic past lives...which I personally would but the option to just spend it again to repurchase the exact same ED's) then that would be completely fine as well. It's basically making a required system that's functionally an optional system. The only reason I could see this being needed would be to squelch some weird exploits but if that's really what the goal is then this system would be fine. It gives MORE options...not less. And all we're asking for is to have the same options after the update as we had before the update.
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  20. #860
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    Quote Originally Posted by oradafu View Post
    Can you give one example where the Devs have changed their course of action after they have stated more than once that they are moving in a certain direction?
    - "hard to kill"
    - "Madstone boots"
    - Offerwall
    - Raid loot as crafting ingredients.

    there are a few other small things.

    All required MASSIVE amounts of nerd-rage to get Turbine to listen.

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