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  1. #821
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    I would get sick If I gonna do get ED XP again and again to get ToF Points... just make a way to keep them, ToF Points.

  2. #822
    Community Member Systern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    Okay, if nothing is set in stone, then the first thing that really needs to change is the release date. Push it out. U20 is too soon. U19 and U17 really NEED to be finished first.


    And Jerry, I apologize for my above tirade... not the substance, but the presentation...

  3. #823
    Community Member Permian's Avatar
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    Default Possibly

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    My only glimmer of hope is the only time I've seen the community so united against a change was raid loot being used in Cannith crafting. The players that actually play the game understood how damaging that change would have been to the community, they spoke up loud and clear, and the change was taken out. I'm hoping if we keep stating calmly and decisively that we simply won't take part in the changes they're proposing that it will finally sink in and they'll realize that they're completely wrong in this case as well.

    Ultimately it's Turbine's decision about whether to listen to us or not. However it's our decision about whether to reward them with our hard earned money, whether to tell these cautionary tales in every single group (especially when TR'ing with new players), to encourage these new players to avoid all of Turbine's overpriced and unnecessary (and in the cases of xp pots used to level ED's pure thievery) store options, to speak out to gaming web sites and let them know how Turbine is treating their customers, to take to Twitter and Facebook (especially Twitter where Turbine has no say about what we post) and spread the word about how Turbine is treating their customers. In short, it's our choice as customers to make sure Turbine is sorry for treating their customers so poorly.
    Trust me, I sincerely hope that the flood of responses continues and I will continue to spread the word in game through channels and even LFMs if I have to, in order to try to activate the non-forum users (as I once was, I just have more time to do it now) to get involved.
    Abamf|Skwat|Baucas Thelanis

  4. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The question is how many pages full of nerd-rage will it take to sink in that this whole idea is a big bucket of fail?

    We're at 40 now. 50? 100?
    I forget, was it 1,000 or 2,000 posts that were required before "Hard to Kill" was killed?

    Of course, the devs then just broke Wail and never bothered to fix it.

    As I told you early in this thread, Turbine can troll its customers far more effectively than you can troll Turbine.

    We can beg and plead, but by now, we should all know how this is going to turn out.

    Now, where is my King of Trolls bunny gif? I think we all need to see it again as a reminder.

  5. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    The question is how many pages full of nerd-rage will it take to sink in that this whole idea is a big bucket of fail?

    We're at 40 now. 50? 100?

    There's no point in changing a system people love and that makes Turbine money if it's going to kill the only aspect of the game that keeps it afloat.

    People will stop TRing, this will lead to them eventually stop playing.
    This:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5022458

  6. #826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    .
    This is the part of your response that shakes me to the bone with frustration. I mean, the WHOLE response was pretty bad if only because it sounded like you guys have a SET position.

    I know Cordovan wants to tell us to be nice but come on. Are you still not understanding? These choices you are making do not sit well with your player base. It is a HUGE friction of a reaction to these "changes." Your communication with us isn't helping alleviate our fears.

    It's been a while. You have to admit. I know you wanna say you are trying, and TRUST ME, I can see the attempts. The problem is, we are so used to you being Missing In Action and not getting responses. You can't start communicating with us after such a long time absent and expect a smooth transition.

    We are angry. We are angry you do not listen, and we are angry about all of these idea's you seem to have that make us, your customers, feel invalid, cheated, and abused.

    We are very sorry if our pain causes you offense.

    But let me see if I understand this correctly. You are telling me...you don't understand your OWN Fate Point code? The ONLY bit of the code you understand is the code you SELL IN THE STORE!? So your base code means nothing? Understanding the rules for your EPIC LEVEL ABILITIES are what...? Not important? Fate Points play right in with Epic Level Experience. If your reaction to our questions is basically...

    "Uh, we don't know WHAT will happen with our code when we try this. In fact, we didn't even PLAN for it. When we though about Epic Experience, we said, hey, you know that thing that people grind for more power? Let's just forget about that." I mean, why even TRY to touch GAME MECHANICS when you don't even know your code well enough to keep it stable FOR CHANGES.

    This is probably why every Friday when you touch your code for a loot bonus people can't log on for hours. Or it could be something else, who knows"?

    For what its worth, I LIKE starting over at level 1. So, during this whole Brainstorm deal, since you seem DEAD SET on your idea's and CLEARLY wont second think what is OVERABUNDANTLY being expressed try and think about the people who are just plain SATISFIED with how Heroic TR works, and don't change a damn thing for it. LEAVE my ED experience, fate points, ALL OF IT alone.

    Use your little Epic Advantage thing for people who want a Feat for giving up all experience in that Destiny Tree. Pretty simple idea. Or wait...is that the problem? Does the code have to be overly complicated to fit into the system?

    Do none of our ideas work for you because you know what you are being ORDERED to implement and what JUST WONT code in?

    You seem to know our Fate Points are in limbo land. What else do you know you have NO CLUE how to work with? Maybe make a list of all the crazy in your program, go through, FIX IT, and then try releasing "expansions". Maybe then, people will trust you, trust your game, and trust what you say.

    Cause after automatically billing people, constantly locking us out of the game, and proving you have no interest in applying feedback....I'm still mighty skeptical.

    But continuing to chide us like angry children sure is working. Keep that up.

  7. #827
    Community Member Sentinnel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    All I need to know is this: When will this go live? I need to finish all tring on all alts I have rolled up (and now, because of this, EVER WILL roll up) before this goes live to avoid getting screwed by this horrible design change.

    As long as I get my tring in before then I'll be good to go. Of course, by then I'll just have that last life to finish leveling, and then, well, the boredom and monotony will set in since I'll only be able to run endgame content instead of the 250 heroic quests, so I guess I can start looking for a new game.

    I just need to know the release date. It will also help me get used to the idea of leaving ddo if I have a firm "you get 2 more months to play" kind of timerframe.
    Couldn't have said it better myself. I just hate thinking about how much money I have spent since 2006 on this game and in the end may leave it in this bitter state. With that kind of investment I feel like there should be something more. But I guess I just need to look at this like paying for cable TV. I get some entertainment, albeit lame and short-lived.

    Peace.

  8. #828
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    Quote Originally Posted by Permian View Post
    Trust me, I sincerely hope that the flood of responses continues and I will continue to spread the word in game through channels and even LFMs if I have to, in order to try to activate the non-forum users (as I once was, I just have more time to do it now) to get involved.
    I would say based on Cordovan's latest post that we at least owe it to the dev's to watch our tone in channels, LFM's, groups, etc. I'm not saying we shouldn't continue to spread the word about what's going on. And I'm not saying that Turbine's track record is good. But Turbine isn't one person...and the xpac's sales have plenty of time to be tanked by 'setting the phasers to kill'. Giving Turbine a week to respond with something that isn't, "we don't care what we promised, we're going to do what we want, throw you a small bone, and you'll shut up and enjoy it" isn't going to kill any of us. To be clear though, all of the responses so far fall into that category as they don't address the main problem - xp promised to be permanent is being made non-permanent within the existing system of heroic tr'ing.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  9. #829
    Community Member memloch's Avatar
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    Default lvls 20 to 28

    Currently a player can Heroic TR anywhere from lvl 20 to lvl 25. This allows many of us players to play some Epic content before we TR.

    With the current proposed system there is actually no reason to play epic lvls if your plan is to heroic TR. I believe you will find that after some time the lower lvl epic levels will have fewer players available for grouping etc. I know many of my toons will avoid epic levels until all the heroic past lifes wanted are complete.
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  10. #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I flat-out don't believe you.

    Tell you what, raise the cannith challenge xp like you said you would last year and I'll consider giving you the benefit of the doubt on this issue. Remember that? How you guys easily nerfed challenge xp twice in a week with the flip of a switch, no update or server downtime needed, but then you said you'd raise it back except that the "formula was complicated to balance" and that you're working on it but it likely won't happen by the end of the year 2012. That was last August you said that.
    this a thousand times this. what about those quality of life fixes? the game is more buggy than when they ere announced. try keeping a promise, or multiple promises if you expect us to believe anything turbine says.

  11. #831
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.

    Ok, fair enough!

    Thank you for the early in to post our concerns.
    Please go back to the drawing board, there are plenty of options to choose from that WONT alienate the people who enjoy the game.
    Thank you for your efforts.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  12. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    This doesn't feel like a discussion with the dev's. There is almost no back and forth, and so far the couple of dev posts feel like a clarification of the in-motion plans, not a brain storming session.

    My reading of Piloto's posts are that the dev feeling is that this is a compensation issue. That means to me that they think they are on the right track and that they just need to find a fair price. Compensationj needs to be considered fair by both sides, and as you can read into some of the "passionate" replies, the only compensation some people would accept is leaving ED xp alone.

    I'm willing to listen to the compensation offers, and depending on the details, I might even choose to accept the loss of my ED XP on some toons. But being forced to swap (as opposed to accepting an option to swap) what were permanent improvements to my toon when I paid the price to earn them is a difficult opening position.
    TPICKRELL forum identity still broken, 15 weeks and counting... So yet another throw away Forum identity

  13. #833
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    The single developer reply we received in the 48+ hours since the "announcement" post that actually addresses the loss of ED xp has only confirmed the part that we are all upset about and given reasons why it needs to happen. There was no language that it is even possible that it will change. If what you are saying above is true - that it is not set in stone - maybe someone needs to review what Piloto posts before it ends up on the forums. Because Piloto is contradicting what you're saying here.

  14. #834

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    On my main toon I spent a lot of time (talking months here) farming out every single destiny level so I could get the fate points, bought a tome so I could get even more, and then LRed to change my build based on abilities I acquired in the destinies that made my capstone less appealing. And when I LRed, I lost all my destiny progress. All of it, into the void. I was pretty perturbed at that. So instead of quitting I spent another few months trying to get my xp back and once I had farmed up 6 destinies again I finally learned of someone who got their xp back through a ticket and HALLELUJAH it was true! And I could finally enjoy my end build for that life.

    That was not my final life however; I have at LEAST 3 more lives planned out for that one toon alone (and at least 2 for my alt), and now you are saying all that xp that I worked to gain twice is going to be wiped out, not as a bug, but intentionally? All the hours of mind numbing farming in the same quest over and over and over again, gone?

    Just don't do it.

  15. #835
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

    I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
    You're working against past track record. Don't expect us to believe that things have the possibility of changing now until you demonstrate that you're listening. It's the saying fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. We've been fooled once, you don't have the reputation to be believed at this point.

  16. #836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    *snip*

    Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

    *snip*
    Many of us have given you some decent rage free feedback and it's all mostly variants of the same thing you are being told over and over and over.

    Take what is in red in the quote here and think about it. This should pretty much tell you what people think about the base idea of losing all destiny xp and how it is being recieved.

    TBH I think the rage is being handled very very well. Oh and please don't think this is a "kneejerk" reaction on most peoples part because it is not!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  17. #837
    The Hatchery dejafu's Avatar
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    Hey, um, guys? I think we should be focusing on this part of Piloto's post a LOT more:

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.
    Okay, so here's my perspective at least: If you can make sure that we keep already-earned Fate Points (maybe grant us a special Tome of Fate +however many fate points we've earned so far that's automatically deposited in our inventory after TR), then my main issue with wiping the ED XP is solved. Actually, scratch that - it won't just be solved, I'll be thrilled. A way to earn more Fate Points? YES! Please! Those are the primary reason by far that I ground out all those EDs, let me keep them (and let me earn even more), and I'll be there with bells on.

    Mind you, if this is something that isn't possible to do from a coding angle, then I'm back to "royally miffed about losing my EDs." Seriously, I'm having a hard time imagining any other form of "compensation" that could balance that loss out.
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    Turning Ghostbane into a meme is, in my book, the best thing to happen to DDO in awhile.

  18. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubbby View Post
    I'm willing to listen to the compensation offers, and depending on the details, I might even choose to accept the loss of my ED XP on some toons. But being forced to swap (as opposed to accepting an option to swap) what were permanent improvements to my toon when I paid the price to earn them is a difficult opening position.
    Right, and in even shorter fashion: If the dev's feel that they want everyone to give up their ED xp then make the compensation compelling and then make it optional. If you make the carrot big enough you won't need the stick and the few people that decide to opt out won't really effect the game being played the way you want it to be played.

    The single developer reply we received in the 48+ hours since the "announcement" post that actually addresses the loss of ED xp has only confirmed the part that we are all upset about and given reasons why it needs to happen. There was no language that it is even possible that it will change. If what you are saying above is true - that it is not set in stone - maybe someone needs to review what Piloto posts before it ends up on the forums.
    Exactly. While I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt Piloto's post simply left no doubt at all. And silence isn't an option either. I'm not willing to allow Turbine to lie to their long-term players, placate us with promises of 'we'll work something out that will fix this for you' just long enough to milk everyone out of the money for the xpac, and then apologize 3 or 4 months from now when they finally tell us they're wiping our ED xp on a heroic TR by saying, "sorry, we just had to do it. We tried!" I'm not going to wait that long before I set the phasers to kill and start gunning for Turbine's reputation on social media and in game. I won't go there yet because they do need time to come up with an alternative that makes the suits happy but I won't give them a pass long enough to let them get away with the lie either.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

  19. #839
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    Default Horribly Demoralizing

    The news on TRing is horribly demoralising.

    What's the point of running Epics?
    Sure, most are fun to play, but what keeps most MMO players playing is the sense of accomplishment.

    XP? Lost when TRing.
    Loot? Level 28 adventures will probably have better loot.

    Losing all Destiny XP when doing a old-style TR is unacceptable.
    You really think getting a few thousand XP in exchange for millions of XP is remotely fair? Make it optional.

    Geoff.

  20. #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuickSlick79 View Post
    This is the part of your response that shakes me to the bone with frustration. I mean, the WHOLE response was pretty bad if only because it sounded like you guys have a SET position.

    I know Cordovan wants to tell us to be nice but come on. Are you still not understanding? These choices you are making do not sit well with your player base. It is a HUGE friction of a reaction to these "changes." Your communication with us isn't helping alleviate our fears.

    It's been a while. You have to admit. I know you wanna say you are trying, and TRUST ME, I can see the attempts. The problem is, we are so used to you being Missing In Action and not getting responses. You can't start communicating with us after such a long time absent and expect a smooth transition.

    We are angry. We are angry you do not listen, and we are angry about all of these idea's you seem to have that make us, your customers, feel invalid, cheated, and abused.

    We are very sorry if our pain causes you offense.

    But let me see if I understand this correctly. You are telling me...you don't understand your OWN Fate Point code? The ONLY bit of the code you understand is the code you SELL IN THE STORE!? So your base code means nothing? Understanding the rules for your EPIC LEVEL ABILITIES are what...? Not important? Fate Points play right in with Epic Level Experience. If your reaction to our questions is basically...

    "Uh, we don't know WHAT will happen with our code when we try this. In fact, we didn't even PLAN for it. When we though about Epic Experience, we said, hey, you know that thing that people grind for more power? Let's just forget about that." I mean, why even TRY to touch GAME MECHANICS when you don't even know your code well enough to keep it stable FOR CHANGES.

    This is probably why every Friday when you touch your code for a loot bonus people can't log on for hours. Or it could be something else, who knows"?

    For what its worth, I LIKE starting over at level 1. So, during this whole Brainstorm deal, since you seem DEAD SET on your idea's and CLEARLY wont second think what is OVERABUNDANTLY being expressed try and think about the people who are just plain SATISFIED with how Heroic TR works, and don't change a damn thing for it. LEAVE my ED experience, fate points, ALL OF IT alone.

    Use your little Epic Advantage thing for people who want a Feat for giving up all experience in that Destiny Tree. Pretty simple idea. Or wait...is that the problem? Does the code have to be overly complicated to fit into the system?

    Do none of our ideas work for you because you know what you are being ORDERED to implement and what JUST WONT code in?

    You seem to know our Fate Points are in limbo land. What else do you know you have NO CLUE how to work with? Maybe make a list of all the crazy in your program, go through, FIX IT, and then try releasing "expansions". Maybe then, people will trust you, trust your game, and trust what you say.

    Cause after automatically billing people, constantly locking us out of the game, and proving you have no interest in applying feedback....I'm still mighty skeptical.

    But continuing to chide us like angry children sure is working. Keep that up.
    Maybe if posts like this, that look like they were written by an angry child, weren't here, they wouldn't have to treat us that way? I've seen plenty (plenty!) of perfectly reasonable, well thought out responses in this thread. But this is the equivalent of going into McDonald's and yelling your head off because thy screwed up your meal. Is it bad? Yes. Is it their fault? Probably. Do you have to act that way? No. Could you accomplish just as much, if not more by being polite? Probably.

    Also, piloto might not be responsible for fate point code. Or the fate point code in its current implementation may not support the carrying over of "earned" fate points, and they are currently trying to rewrite/reimplement the code to make it work. I'm guessing store bought fate points carry over because their a tag marked on your character, similar to store bought inventory, or even stat tomes.

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