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  1. #781
    Uber Completionist Lithic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.
    .
    I'm rather torn about the whole starting with more EXP after a TR thing. The lowbie levels are really where a TR character shines brightest and I really enjoy the early to mid game. Personally I would prefer if the epic destiny exp were converted to a bonus % buff that lasts until level 20, with it's magnitude adjusted accordingly. Note that this should be an overall exp bonus like the exp pots, rather than a base exp bonus like exp bonus days, otherwise you are really screwing over the bravery streakers in favor of the ones who farm high base exp quests over and over and over and zzzz and over. This would allow people to play every level, but the more of a bonus you start with, the more you can pick and choose your favorite quests.

    I use to wish that past lives would give a stacking 5-10% stacking bonus exp so that future TR's would be faster, and this would accomplish something similar.

    As for adjusting the TR exp curves, if you make it a base % increase that is equal among all levels, then you make TRing much more pleasant. 1.5x for a first TR, 2.5x for every other would be pretty reasonable without cutting much of the total exp. Even making it so you end up needing exactly the same exp total to hit 20 as now would still be much better as long as it is a static increase for every level rather than an exponential curve. Sure you don't get to higher levels as fast, but you move lots of exp to the lower levels and away from quest-poor levels (or levels where there are enough quests, but where the exp/min is atrociously low like in shavarath and the house cannith quests).
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  2. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    You're just planning on killing TR ( heroic and epic... well epic will be stillborn, and heroic will be murdered )
    Exactly this.

    People who are saying "Don't delete all Epic Destiny XP on Heroic TR, but its OK to do so on Epic TR", are for the most part saying "I never plan to Epic TR". If it breaks Heroic TR, it breaks Epic TR. Its really not a great idea to invest the time to put a new feature into the game, only to have a large number of people avoid it simply because it has a bad design.

  3. #783
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    TLRL: Make your end-game better if you want people to play it. People not playing it now is your fault for making it so lame.
    I'm going to disagree with you a bit on this. I don't dislike endgame. I enjoy playing the epic level stuff. I just enjoy tr'ing a little bit more. Best of all is having both as an option.

    If this system had been introduced soon after ed's had come out, there wouldn't really be a problem. It actually completely matches my playstyle. You level up a couple of ed's, lock one in, then tr and get a bonus.

    The problem is, that it wasn't put in shortly after ed's were. It won't even be put in soon starting from now. It will retroactively destroy all epic leveling that has been done, and will be done, from the time ed's came out until this system goes live.

    I never actually want my character to be 'done'. For me, that would mean that he was retired. Dead, essentially. May as well delete him to open another slot. If the only option to avoid ed wiping is to never tr, then once i finished leveling ed's, my characters would all be done. And for me, that would be when the game over screen pops up.

  4. #784
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusCleardawn View Post
    Questions:

    5. Why the necessity of zapping Epic Destiny Experience at all?
    If I were to guess, XP pots.

  5. #785
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    Default Past Life feat and ED XP

    First I would like to say I love the game and very rarely post on the forum. This proposal is out of whack.

    My first question is if you Epic TR do you still get the heroic Past life feat as well as the epic past life Feat?

    I see no reason at all to touch ED XP in either Heroic or Epic TR systems. Who cares if you have all EDs or not. You are only using one at a time with 3 twists. To TR is to redo lower level content over again to break up the boredom of the end game. At least that is why I do it.

    The new proposal of using ED XP to give you levels in the new life is really for the most part of use in the first Epic TR. I say this because who would grind all the EDs over again if you are going to lose it anyways. So this really gives us nothing.

    So I am pleading that you just leave ED XP alone.
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  6. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

    Question: will iconics be able to undergo epic TR? I just realized as I read this that neither glin's nor your post ever mention that combination. However, if iconics must level to 28 in order to reincarnate, they should be allowed to epic TR, since they'll have at least one capped destiny.

    Next question: you mentioned your plans/concerns with fate points(thank you for looking into keeping them), but what are the current plans for unlocked destinies?

    I know it's been mentioned before, but I have a character that used 3 keys to get my artificer right into shiradi(not what I was planning, but my then gf decided that they'd be a nice gift)

    So, that's over 3k tp right there. Is there anyway you can make sure that once a destiny is "unlocked" it remains "unlocked" through epic TR?

  7. #787
    Community Member Permian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusCleardawn View Post
    Questions:

    5. Why the necessity of zapping Epic Destiny Experience at all?
    It actually is not necessary in the least. Instead of leaving the epic XP system and the destiny XP systems separated, which is logical to most that have replied, they are tossing destiny XP into the grinder along with epic and heroic XP. It's basically guaranteed from Piloto's post that all destiny XP will be gone for anyone who TRs at any point after this system is implemented and this is not going to change. It has been written by the development so, imo, everyone (who isn't leaving) should start planning appropriately. And I personally wouldn't go throw a bunch of effort into farming ANYTHING at this point until this stuff goes through.

    I believe we will all be playing a brand new game basically and based upon the dev responses I'm going to go ahead and accept it as fact. Historically this has been the case.
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  8. #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).
    This is where you are 100% wrong and indicates that you guys need to have a fundamental rethink. This kinda leaves me dumbfounded, and for a Scottish guy with a couple of beers in him, that's saying something.

    Your proposal to wipe ED XP on a Heroic TR is what will create the divide. The reasons for this are both basic and obvious.

    Up to now you can do your Heroic lives, and spend whatever amount of time you like doing Epic content before you choose to TR again. You do this in the knowledge that you can put some points into your ED's and build them up over time. This is a massive plus.

    So as we have it right now, there is no disincentive to doing Epic content on your character even when you fully intend to TR it again at some point.

    Your proposal changes this completely and leave only two sensible options:
    1. Heroic TR as soon as you hit 20 and ignore all Epic content.
    2. Continue on to Epic TR at level 28.

    So you are removing the option for people to spend some time in Epic until they have completed all of their Heroic TR, unless they are fully prepared to commit to capping at 28 regardless of how much grind that involves.

    Take a step back from this and look at it again. You have no reason to touch Heroic TR in any way whatsoever. Don't mess with a system that works. Invest your time and energies in the new systems that you are proposing. Listen to the players who have more experience of how the game is actually played than you do.

    EDIT: PS - Welcome to the forums.

  9. #789
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny.
    Rather than simply starting at a higher level, what about an 'XP buff' that persists for the entirety of the next life. It could offer a percentage increase on all XP earned, just like XP potions do, with the percentage adjusted based on how significant the 'XP burn' was. This way people get an XP return on their investment, but it is not front loaded causing you to miss all of the low level stuff that is much more plentiful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.
    So, if this system works out people would be able to retain their Fate Points, and then earn even more as they re-level their Epic Destinies? That alone would entirely take the wind out of everyone's sails over this, seeing as the entire point of leveling off EDs is to gain Fate Points, and if the system works this way then it will allow them to earn even more Fate Points. Not to mention it would make the Tomes of Fate no longer such a pay-to-win item, since there would be an in game way to duplicate their effect.

  10. #790
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Exactly this.

    People who are saying "Don't delete all Epic Destiny XP on Heroic TR, but its OK to do so on Epic TR", are for the most part saying "I never plan to Epic TR". If it breaks Heroic TR, it breaks Epic TR. Its really not a great idea to invest the time to put a new feature into the game, only to have a large number of people avoid it simply because it has a bad design.
    The question is how many pages full of nerd-rage will it take to sink in that this whole idea is a big bucket of fail?

    We're at 40 now. 50? 100?

    There's no point in changing a system people love and that makes Turbine money if it's going to kill the only aspect of the game that keeps it afloat.

    People will stop TRing, this will lead to them eventually stop playing.

  11. #791
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.
    Or maybe what it does is NOT take away your hard work for epic leveling you have chosen to do.


    See, here's the base problem. ED's as they are work just fine. EXCEPT for the part that you have to grind your way through who-knows-how-many million xp to get to the one you actually WANT. This is unpleasant. It's like telling us we have to play as a gimped sorcerer for x levels if we want to play a barbarian. But... We do that because that is the system.

    Now you're telling us that you're going to take all that and throw it in the trash if we want to do a heroic TR?
    Sorry, no. There is nothing you can give us to "make up" for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat).
    Which we do! yippe!
    Now in order to do that, you're telling us we have to obliterate x million xp as well? Seriously?

    *tap tap*
    Is this thing even on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.
    SO you guys can't figure out the code? Come on.
    Or is it... Your bosses say no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.

    Sigh..

    Bottom line:
    Leave Heroic TR'ing alone.

    Here, let me repeat that.
    L.E.A.V.E. I.T. A.L.O.N.E.

    Just fix the ridiculously low xp on the 18-20 quests available and poof!
    Lookie there, I just saved you guys tons of work AND made the customers happy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlteredState View Post
    If I were to guess, XP pots.
    Which brings up an interesting point. I spent turbine points for a single 30% xp pot for my ED farming. Now, I know that's a small amount but I'm sure there are people out there that have spent many times that on xp pots for ED farming. The reason I spent that is that I knew once I got that xp I'd never have to do that grind again. Now it's taken away in direct contradiction of previous dev promises.

    Also, many people have suggested retaining twist points as a compromise. That's not enough. The problem with that solution is that players are expected to have certain twists to run their toon. I can think of twists from every side-sphere that are critical to toons depending on class/race/gear. Specifically Brace for Impact from Unyielding Sentinel, Energy Sheath from Draconic Incarnation, and Rejuvenating Cocoon from Primal Avatar. Even if I start out with a single bonded destiny and full twist points I'm nowhere near being able to twist appropriate abilities.

    Simply put, the dev's need to step up and honor their promise. They need to keep heroic TR and ED xp separate. There is no middle ground that will keep me happy as a customer and I'm pretty sure I'm not in the minority on that.
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  13. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

    2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

    Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
    If you compensate with an extra fate point for each maxed and non-bonded ED I bet people will be jumping in line to do it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

    Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

    1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).
    Just wow. So first you present super restrictive enhancements with no flexibility (which I believe you are not going to change at all as you promised) and now this. Like seriously? What if i actually enjoy questing lvl 1-20 and I dont really see exchange ED xp -> heroic xp as a reward? Plus I really dont get why do you compare spending some time in epics and earning some xp into a few lvls of EDs and then TR to cheating. I like when i can stay some time in epics and play with build, earn some EDs levels (so I could possibly be on my next life in the right destiny when I get back into the epics). But I got bored very soon because of the lack of content and TR again (usually around lvl 23-24). And now you just come and take this all from me so when I TR from fighter suddenly I will be lvl 20 sorecerer (yet I enjoy leveling 1-20) in legendary dreadnought destiny. WOOT. So what you are basically saying is to play only the epics and I just wonder why.....At this point i am not even angry...I am just sad...sad about the direction this game is taking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrkGrismer View Post
    If you compensate with an extra fate point for each maxed and non-bonded ED I bet people will be jumping in line to do it.
    Not me. Not interested. My only compensation I'm interested in is separating heroic TR from ED xp the way it's been since release. I'm not compromising. My compromise would be to ignore all TR options in the game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I'm going to disagree with you a bit on this. I don't dislike endgame. I enjoy playing the epic level stuff. I just enjoy tr'ing a little bit more. Best of all is having both as an option.
    I do to but you cannot refute the reality (though Fanbois have for months when I've been complaining about the lack of end-game). Look a the who list, look at LFMs. End game is dead.

    I love end-game it's fun, but ther raid scene is dead, that drop rates suck, and too many builds have been marginalized to the point of being crappy.

    This again is 100% Turbine's fault.

    If they want people to play end-game, make end-game more fun to play. Right now it's not more fun than Heroic leveling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If you see the later posts here, you'll see further proposals on how you can Epic TR and start at a range of levels. I like the idea of being able to start at level 1, 4 or 7 with or without the Advantage boost. That to me is a much better set of options and gives fair compensation for the loss of ED XP.

    Are you saying that you want more than one heroic rank per ED rank and also saying that you want to start at level 1 at the same time? I'm not sure how you can make that work.

    Following the best suggestion I've come across from Tscheuss, you would have the option of starting at Level 1, if you choose to, or using your full Advantage and starting at level 18, or a number of options inbetween.

    If you're trying to come up with a solution where you can Epic TR but the cost is removed just because we already have our ED's capped then I'll happily disagree with your opinion on how it should be. I'm happy with there being a cost to Epic TRing, I'm even happy with the proposed cost, but I would like to see the compensation increased as described in the linked post. I would also like the ED Past Lives to be powerful enough to further compensate for the additional effort in gaining them.
    It seems that you are wedded to the idea that the "reward" for your ED ranks must be Heroic ranks. I am not wedded to that idea - perhaps there are other perks that you can get instead. Or I read an idea of gaining an "item" that you can use at any point in Heroic leveling to give you X experience. That idea is something I was thinking about as well. Although I don't agree with it being a static number of XP no matter how many XP it took you to attain the ED rank in question. I think it should be a sliding scale.

    The point is that there can be other methods of compensation that might be more valuable to people who aren't trying to just grind past lives as quickly as possible. Maybe instead of only one compensation you could choose between one that supports quick grinding of Past Lives (like the Heroic Ranks) and one that supports someone who just wants to play the game.

  18. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkrok View Post
    Which brings up an interesting point. I spent turbine points for a single 30% xp pot for my ED farming. Now, I know that's a small amount but I'm sure there are people out there that have spent many times that on xp pots for ED farming. The reason I spent that is that I knew once I got that xp I'd never have to do that grind again. Now it's taken away in direct contradiction of previous dev promises.
    This is one of the other reasons I'm so ticked off too. I'll admit that I used way more XP pots *gulp*, even sovereign ones, just to get through the tedious/ultra-boring grind...Makes me sick that I will most likely never see a return for that investment in any way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Uhuh, we got that bit already

    But are you are suggesting that this is part of the intended design? That it's intentional that you won't be able to obtain 3x past lives on all of the 4 iconic classes (never mind any future additions)?

    You might want to rethink that

    We're not asking for an Iconic Completionist Feat here, we're simply talking about the basic ability to take all of the possible Iconic Past Lives if we decide that's something we want to do.

    I'm 99.999% sure that this is what they intended, but the way it's been described this wouldn't be possible. So it should be a very, very straight forward thing to clarify I'm not asking anyone to put their nuts in a vice here, just clarify a few simple points. The complex stuff we can worry about another day
    Iconic TR only requires level cap (28); it does not require any ED, bonded or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return.
    This completely misses the point of the complaints. Acquiring destiny xp isn't fun. Full stop. There is no amount of "getting something in return" that I would consider compensation for losing destiny xp. I simply will not tr again. Ever.

    So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR.
    This one sentence makes it clear that you guys are committed to losing destiny xp on heroic tr. That's an epic fail regardless of the rewards. Literally, epic fail. heh. But seriously, this is a non-starter, a deal-breaker. You've just ensured I will never tr my characters again, which in turns greatly reduces the amount of playtime available to me since what I find fun is TRing, with a few weeks/couple months at cap in between.

    One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character.
    I would HATE this. Let me rephrase: I WILL hate this, because this is clearly the path you're choosing and nothing will dissuade you.

    Skipping content is not a perk; it's a penalty. I like playing all content. That's why the bravery bonus is such genius. Because it gives incentive to play all content, which in turn greatly extends the life of the game. Skipping content shortens the life of the game. The only reason I can think of that you guys are doing this is to give disincentive to run all content in an effort to reduce free TP earned through favor.

    Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play.
    You really, really, really don't get it, do you? Having heroic TR wipe out destiny xp is a STRONG incentive to avoid epic level play, because it's all lost. It's when heroic tr preserves destiny xp that you have incentive to actually play some epic content before tring again.

    It boggles my mind that you guys don't understand or refuse to see this. I mean, seriously, you honestly think that heroic tr wiping destiny xp is an incentive to do epic play? For realsies?

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