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  1. #641
    Community Member Henky's Avatar
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    Again turbine shows us that they dont know how we play the game. Leave Heroic TR as always, dont touch it. And with Epic TR whatever, just make sure that loosing 18M of XP is worth.
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  2. #642
    Time Bandit & Hero SirShen's Avatar
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    I was thinking EPIC TR was going to be just TR back to level 20 and level back up to level 28 and nothing todo with ED at all.

    If this goes though i would like

    1. Trees to remain open if you opened them that life.
    2. Keep all your fate points that you worked for that life.

    3. Heroic TR should stay as it is now, no loss on ED xp.

  3. #643
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Default Simple Solution?

    How about this.

    Forget all about Epic Advantage, it doesn't exist.

    Heroic TR's = Same as on live now.
    Iconic TR's = Treat like heroic TR's but cannot TR until level 25+

    Epic TR's = Start at level 1 (with TR 1 leveling requirements). You sacrifice & bond the ED you want gain the past life from, and you cannot use / twist unbonded ED's again until you reach level 28

  4. #644
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    want to see if I understand this correctly
    I have all ED's filled

    I see the ED past life thing for say juggernaught is +2 damage and figure - this is nice ill get that one - all the rest not much interest to me

    so I Epic TR
    my first TR I start at rank 5 (so that has saved me around 60 seconds and 1 quest woohoo)
    I work my way back to 28
    ill prolly get to fill 3 ED's as part of this.
    Then I need to refill my other 8 ED's to get to where I was again

    so 1 ED past life = lvl 2 to 28 + 8 more ed's - north of 20 mil xp?

    really?

    if im misunderstanding the post just point out my mistake. Will go get another beer as punishment.

  5. #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Or maybe just start them the same way a new toon is started when Veteran status is unlocked. That mechanic is already in use.
    Adding more dialogue options and starting your character on the Heart of Wind instead of on Korthos beach but only when you Epic TR would seem to be a neat solution, good call.



    So you'd maybe get something like this?

    Give people all of the options and it's then up to them which one they want to choose.

    But maybe add an "Are you sue you want to .... " when you select it, where there unfortunately isn't one now.

  6. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piloto View Post
    We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.
    If you wanted a simple proposal, do the following when you bond a Destiny:
    1. You gain the Level 0 innate ability for that Destiny as a passive feat available to you at level 1
    2. You gain 1 extra Fate Point
    3. You gain 8 more points to spend in that tree

    When you have all of them bonded:
    1. You automatically gain the passive feat Epic Completionist which grants a stacking +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores.
    2. You gain a 4th Twist Slot
    3. You can now upgrade your Twist Slots to Tier 5

    And while you're doing this, please make the Completionist feat an auto-grant. You'll make a lot of people happy and won't break the game in the process.

    If you want extra fluff, how about the following:
    Completionist: Show double-wings around a character's name
    Epic Completionist: Add a flourish to the wings.
    Triple Completionist: Make the name and wings and flourish golden.

  7. #647
    The Hatchery Hutoth's Avatar
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  8. #648
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    Default Clarification Requested from Devs

    1) I assume that since an ED is locked once you epic TR it means you can gain the epic TR destiny feat once and only once. Is that correct.

    2) Once you epic TR from each destiny, I assume this would entitle the player to epic completionist. Will this be an autogrant or selectable feat?

    3) If I epic TR to an iconic and have maxed ED this will take me to 28. Do I still need to grind to fill out a new destiny or does the epic advantage include ED experience?

    4) Would you be open to the idea of offering a heroic TR option that allowed players to keep their ED. That way Epic TR is optional and people still have a way to gain past life feats without messing up their ED tree. This is especially important since people may want to get new past life feats due to the enhancement pass and other changes


    other comments - I am not requesting a response to these
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My first reaction was very much like everyone else's reaction - **** - I am losing my ED experience except for one tree. ED farming generates at least 400k xp/hour and more if the group is a bit faster. With that it means capping al ED would take around 55 hours or so. If I epic TR into an iconic with maxed EDs I will cap to 28 immediately and can then do another Epic TR unless I need to still fill out a tree. This would easily save me 55 hours so I am not grumbling quite as much as yesterday. Not to mention much of that xp was accumulated running quests I would have run anyhow so the actual grinding was probably under 50 hours..

    Not everyone grinds for ED so for some people the time investment is much more than 55 hours.
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  9. #649
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    In no particular order:

    More build points would only be useful in certain special cases since it would still be impossible to start with more than 20 in any one particular attribute. Would be like the current maximum spell level problem.

    Careful not to set premium too far apart. We are here because we can play with our friends, which is the point of a massive multilayer game. Many of those friends are either free or too casual to purchase the whole thing. Give then reasons to give up and that would be akin to giving us those reasons by proxy.

    Good faith is paramount, this is a planning game, it requires a long therm view. No problem whatsoever with extensions, but changing things after long efforts, planning and time spent towards some goals is a betrayal.

    Few actually enjoy all classes. I for instance would not stand a play through with a barbarian. Farming useless destinies for the target build is annoying enough even relying on only having to do it once. Keep in mind that trying to increase game length/coverage through some TR scheme is a fallacy like it would be trying to do the same to a grand strategy game by filling it with sports sub-games. And the current TR scheme is already pushing it.

    Be sure to listen to all feedback to those enhancement changes, being hit by both those and this in sequence would be enough to push many over the edge. By the way, where is it I could comment on them? They seemed to go to a lammania thread but then changed and I am quite lost now, would really like to give my input. Example: Your very first expansion was about magic itself, with the goddess of magic as a subject and even Elminster in person and no Dragon whatsoever at any of the main storyline quests. Then why is that the only sorcerer capstone would be like that? The normal choice is in between a more self sufficient one like warforged sorcerers who think the charisma hit is worth of it, to whom that would be a perfect choice, against a more group work oriented build. In the latter the main purpose of sorcerers is large area damage against groups in complement to melee types which are more effective against stronger foes like bosses in contrast to the myriad of different rules for more sophisticated classes like monks/rogues, everyone still working together. Think of it as choosing between channeling the power to increase the body resistance/strength and channeling it to, so to say, blow things up.

  10. #650
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
    Simply providing opportunity to shift the system is not a guarantee it will be altered in any way.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 06-14-2013 at 07:31 AM.
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  11. #651
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    Another way to do it.
    You have max ED, bond it and then you epic TR back to 20.
    While levelling you choose an ED (as usual) to gain XP from. BUT you now have the option to use your bonded ED instead of your chosen one while still gaining XP for the chosen one.
    Flufty, Flufs, Fluffi, Fluffit

  12. #652

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    I don't really undestand this part. If you bond a Destiny and gain the Epic Destiny Past Life Feat for it, why would it's XP be reset to zero? The idea of bonding it is to make it permanent.
    My theory is very simple and Sir Valentine has suggested the same.
    We are treating a particular epic destiny in the same manner a heroic class is treated for TRing.

    If you TR a Wizard Life, you receive a past live and your xp is reset to zero.





    Hello DDO Staffers,

    I use Internet Explorer to use the forums.
    I have McFee or Norton Online security.

    I cannot use the Pando Downloader to obtain DDO, but Steam works.
    I have trouble and must work around posting on the forums.

    I am not a computer expert, I use what comes with my computer.
    Please pass along to others these issues.


    Also Amarath Quests, Cannith Quests, IQ one Quests, and Cannith Challenges
    are very poor for xp. Sins is brutal but potentially better than the rest if you
    are truly uber. We the DDO community have difficulty understanding why
    after years these quests have not been readjusted by simply doubling the xp granted?
    How difficult would it be to just go into these quests and swap the xp numbers there?
    It is major design flaw to factor xp with loot as loot quickly fades from glory.

    Bards need love ~ a spell that actually does damage and resist energy for starters.
    You have tons of notes on that subject.

    Divines always need to be loved as Raids / End Game Quests will not group well
    without them.


    I have read thru your new ideas regarding TRing.
    If you are coming forward early and allowing us to be part of the brainstorming
    process, then thank you very much. We are privileged to be a part of this.


    So maybe something like this will work:

    Anytime you Epic TR, a dialog opens up.
    "Which capped Epic Destiny would you like to bind
    and gain the past life for?"

    At that point you choose which Destiny you wish.
    This prevents people accidently being in the wrong destiny.
    This epic destiny applies to epic advantage and its xp
    is reset to zero.

    Also anytime you use any kind of TR, another dialog opens up.
    "Would you like to use Epic Advantage?"

    You can reply yes or no.

    If the answer if no, then you keep all your epic destiny xp
    except an epic destiny that is capped and will be bound during this TR.

    If the answer is yes, then you can mark one by one,
    each unbound epic destiny you would like to convert to heroic xp.
    {The reason one would want to do this is to farm more
    fate points in an enjoyable destiny.}

    If you heroic TR, everything else remains the same.

    Iconic TRing allows you to TR into an Iconic Class without
    binding any Epic Destinies.

    If you are Epic TRing then you receive either a class past life
    or an iconic past life depending on what your current character is.

    With epic TRing your new life starts at level 1 as heroic class or level 15 as iconic class.
    You are granted bonus xp for any epic advantage applied. This xp
    is hard capped and you must take it before earning more xp.

    When you reach epic levels and gain a level in any epic destiny
    whether it has been reset or not this level is added to your fate counter:
    epic destiny levels gained / 3 = fate points

    Heroic Class Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level one.
    It is the same as the normal Completionist feat.

    Iconic Completionist becomise an auto grant feat at level one.
    It grants you a bonus feat?

    Epic Completionist becomes an auto grant feat at level twenty.
    It grants you an extra twist slot and X fate points.

    For every four Epic Destinies bound you receive an extra twist slot.
    Twist remain capped at level four.

    Any destiny that was previously unlocked remains unlock for the next life,
    regardless of ED XP resets.



    If you do choose to be more generous with beta enhancements and take note
    of our great fears regarding your current brainstorming and act upon these things
    we will be impressed.


    Thank you sincerely,
    Fawn

  13. #653

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirShen View Post
    I was thinking EPIC TR was going to be just TR back to level 20 and level back up to level 28 and nothing todo with ED at all.
    A reasonable option. Drop toon back to 20 in a +0 lesser heart action.
    If this goes though i would like

    1. Trees to remain open if you opened them that life.
    2. Keep all your fate points that you worked for that life.

    3. Heroic TR should stay as it is now, no loss on ED xp.
    Reasonable requests.
    Unlocked Epic Destinies must stay unlocked.
    Every time we level up an Epic Destiny it should be applied to a permanent fate counter:
    Epic Levels gain on all lives / 3 = fate points.

    Both Heroic and Iconic TRing should be available in a form that does destroy Epic Destiny progress.

  14. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I also play for sheer entertainment (like all games I play), and for me progression is a key component of that entertainment. That's why when the cap was 20, I'd just TR rather than grind end loot to play 'end game' to grind end loot. Gear acquisition is not progression to me.


    In many ways, ED acquisition feels like gear acquisition to me. Unlock more EDs to play EE content to acquire EE gear... bleah. Once I hit 25 I am ITCHING to TR. I have only two characters who I have left at 25 for more than a couple of weeks: my crafter, and my monk. My monk is the only character I have where I have unlocked more than 5 EDs.


    So for players like me, I really don't see these changes being an issue. For maxers and end-game-grinders, I can see why they would be upset, because to increase their power they have to take a big step backwards and re-grind a lot of stuff.
    In my experience, most people with this attitude aren't very good players and tend to look for excuses to avoid situations where this will become apparent to others. I've seen it time and time again on these forums, often from some of the most vocal and trollish posters, who often chime in with their opinions regarding parts of the game even they themsleves admit they prefer to avoid. TR'ing is just a safer, less challenging form of grind, that allows people to stay in their comfort zones.

  15. #655
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    As im sure many have said, Deleting all destiny EXP is out of the question, even with converting it into heroics ranks, it just isnt a fair tradeoff. While the idea of skipping past levels of a TR is nice, it would be much better implimented if you delete only the exp from the destiny being bounded and leave the rest alone, perhaps then by giving us heroic LEVELS rather then ranks (thus giving us 5 levels thus starting us at lvl6 for giving up only 1 destiny worth of exp (currently a capped destiny has 1,980,000 exp, which is technically enough exp to level up to 15 again on a 3rd life, so 5 levels isnt that b

    although quite frankly the leveling from 1-18 isnt bad, it the 18-20 that is the killer for most TR's, so even giving us 1 or 2 levels (perhaps as a stone that gives us enough exp to level up exactly 1 level no matter which level we use it, and which we can use at any time) would be a more sought after choice, especially if it would be able to be kept for later lives.


    so so summary, do one of two things.
    • Leave ALL destinies exp alone except the bonded destiny, which would be reset, and give people 5 extra levels for when they TR (this would make iconics lvl 20, so wouldnt be the best choice)
    • Leave ALL destinies exp alone except the bonded destiny, which would be reset, and give people a leveling stone enough to level up atleast 1 level, not matter when they use it. (the preferred choice, since as I mentioned a destiny is 1,980,000 exp 1-2 levels on any life (with the current exp requirements, even the 2 levels between 18-20 is still lower then the amount of exp we're giving up)


    this will allow for a few things
    • to not aggravate the people who spent months leveling up their destinies by wiping their work out of existence
    • to give some incentive to actually use the epic TR system from bother new and vet perspectives
    • For those who already have grinded out their destinies, the EPIC TR will be more appealing since they could level up to cap and then bind another destiny quicker since they would have the destinies already either semi or fully filled, but the time it would take a newer person would still be lower then it would've taken these vets due to the fact that your reworking the EXP requirements.



    obviously fate points, the main reason people go and level other destinies, would have to be commented on by the dev's although with the above change I doubt too many people would be too upset if they were to lower on an epic TR since we'd only lose 1-2 per life until we regain the previously bounded destinies exp.

  16. #656

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    If you wanted a simple proposal, do the following when you bond a Destiny:
    1. You gain the Level 0 innate ability for that Destiny as a passive feat available to you at level 1
    Lets not mix epic and heroic bonuses, that could backfire.
    2. You gain 1 extra Fate Point
    So, you bound the destiny no longer having to level it up again,
    and grant an extra fate point. I much prefer keeping any fate points
    that I have earned. There is plenty of room for expanding twists,
    and the twist math will eat up fate points like the cookie monster
    eats cookies.
    3. You gain 8 more points to spend in that tree
    Oh my, that is plush. I like that. It would make up for less fate points.

    I would love to see more points in the epic destiny trees.
    In fact, why not add more epic levels, points to each level and a bit more on the
    top two tiers. My angel destiny could use 20 more points spent in it easy.
    When you have all of them bonded:
    1. You automatically gain the passive feat Epic Completionist which grants a stacking +2 bonus to all skills and ability scores.
    2. You gain a 4th Twist Slot
    3. You can now upgrade your Twist Slots to Tier 5
    Interesting Ideas there.
    I would prefer to end up with 5 twists at least instead of four, and would be
    willing to let of the copy of the completionist feat to do so.
    I like the twists going to tier five.
    Again Twists are widly popular, Devs please expand them as you can.
    And while you're doing this, please make the Completionist feat an auto-grant. You'll make a lot of people happy and won't break the game in the process.
    Indeed.

    If you want extra fluff, how about the following:
    Completionist: Show double-wings around a character's name
    Epic Completionist: Add a flourish to the wings.
    Triple Completionist: Make the name and wings and flourish golden.
    Nice fluff.


    Overall, your ideas have merit.

    Obviously there should be some form of TRing available to those who want to TR
    into Iconic or Heroic without losing their epic destinies.

    I and Sir Valentine approach this from kill the xp in the bound slot which ignored
    the whole bound concept and treats the epic destiny like a class,
    while you approach the matter of save the bound ED XP and kill the rest.

    Both ideas have merit.

    For me personally, I could live with your approach to this matter of giving up
    all epic destiny xp except the bound ed.

    However, I disagree with you on the points that you seem to think epic destinies
    will not remain unlocked and earned fate points should not be kept. I feel strongly
    about these matters. What we have earned we should be allowed to keep.

  17. #657

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    Quote Originally Posted by Violith View Post
    As im sure many have said, Deleting all destiny EXP is out of the question, even with converting it into heroics ranks, it just isnt a fair tradeoff. While the idea of skipping past levels of a TR is nice, it would be much better implimented if you delete only the exp from the destiny being bounded and leave the rest alone, perhaps then by giving us heroic LEVELS rather then ranks (thus giving us 5 levels thus starting us at lvl6 for giving up only 1 destiny worth of exp (currently a capped destiny has 1,980,000 exp, which is technically enough exp to level up to 15 again on a 3rd life, so 5 levels isnt that b

    although quite frankly the leveling from 1-18 isnt bad, it the 18-20 that is the killer for most TR's, so even giving us 1 or 2 levels (perhaps as a stone that gives us enough exp to level up exactly 1 level no matter which level we use it, and which we can use at any time) would be a more sought after choice, especially if it would be able to be kept for later lives.


    so so summary, do one of two things.
    • Leave ALL destinies exp alone except the bonded destiny, which would be reset, and give people 5 extra levels for when they TR (this would make iconics lvl 20, so wouldnt be the best choice)
    • Leave ALL destinies exp alone except the bonded destiny, which would be reset, and give people a leveling stone enough to level up atleast 1 level, not matter when they use it. (the preferred choice, since as I mentioned a destiny is 1,980,000 exp 1-2 levels on any life (with the current exp requirements, even the 2 levels between 18-20 is still lower then the amount of exp we're giving up)


    this will allow for a few things
    • to not aggravate the people who spent months leveling up their destinies by wiping their work out of existence
    • to give some incentive to actually use the epic TR system from bother new and vet perspectives
    • For those who already have grinded out their destinies, the EPIC TR will be more appealing since they could level up to cap and then bind another destiny quicker since they would have the destinies already either semi or fully filled, but the time it would take a newer person would still be lower then it would've taken these vets due to the fact that your reworking the EXP requirements.



    obviously fate points, the main reason people go and level other destinies, would have to be commented on by the dev's although with the above change I doubt too many people would be too upset if they were to lower on an epic TR since we'd only lose 1-2 per life until we regain the previously bounded destinies exp.
    This is why I am suggesting my proposal.
    Having listen to many people while playing the game, they seem much more comfortable with this approach.

    Even though I personally don't mind blowing up all my epic destiny xp, I don't expect others to feel the same way.

  18. #658

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrdf View Post
    Careful not to set premium too far apart. We are here because we can play with our friends, which is the point of a massive multilayer game. Many of those friends are either free or too casual to purchase the whole thing. Give then reasons to give up and that would be akin to giving us those reasons by proxy.
    Nods solemnly.

    Expanding twists seems the best approach to keep things more balanced.
    Ask anyone in the game how many twists they consider using with their epic build?
    I bet they name more than three.

  19. #659
    Community Member Levonestral's Avatar
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    Writing to have fallen on deaf ears, but writing because I feel I need to at least say it.


    The new Epic TR plan isn't exactly what I was hoping for. To me the idea of "Epic" TR'ing suggested that I could continue playing my "epic" characters in epic content. I was hoping it would reset us back to level 20 and we'd continue down our epic path once again. I wasn't expecting huge powerful gains, just nice benefits for choosing to run the epic content more often.

    That said, what they are suggesting isn't bad, just not quite what I had hoped for.


    With the exception of one thing: Deleting your previous ED xp.


    ED experience was promised to be kept after TR's. This is why so many people are now upset with Turbine because for many people like myself, we decided to spend a significant amount of time and energy working on our ED plans instead of working on TRs. We felt that we would be safe in our decision because it was stated, by Turbine, that we would keep our earned ED experience so we chose to focus our play time working on this area of the game instead.

    It's not like we were using something that wasn't "quite right" (like evasion working in medium armor). This was something that Turbine specifically stated would not be affected by TR's, giving people the false sense of safety in their future endevors.

    Now comes along their decision to change that plan, slighting a large group of players for something that we were originally promised would not happen.

    Players are left feeling ripped off. All our time, effort, xp pots etc, all "wasted". Sorry but trading in one destiny level for a single heroic rank is not acceptable. What's worse is that those ranks push us into levels where we'd still have to go back and run the content anyway just for the purpose of favor (bank, pack space etc).

    There have been a lot of great suggestions for handling the "lost" xp. Please listen to them and take them into consideration.


    This all said, the plan itself isn't bad but it should have been put in place long before this so that people could have positioned themselves better without being left feeling ripped off by being mis-lead by other Turbine employees.

    The biggest problem with ED's is that a player is forced to grind out experience in destinies that provide very little to no benefits for their character while playing it, just for the purpose of grinding out fate points. There isn't much fun involved in that which is why you see so many endless grind-a-thons running the same 2-3 quests just to "get this over with". Is that really what you wanted your players to do?

    I have never been a big fan of that design, but sucked it up and have done several 4/2/1 and 4/1/1 mixes over the last few months. I'm now being told that all that work will be lost should I ever choose to TR my character again. Ouch.

    I could live with some of the losses should we be allowed to keep all our fate points from our previous lives and only be forced to re-grind the destinies we want to twist again. Not a great solution, but better than what's being suggested now.


    I've touched base on this before about ED's vs Fate Points and I'll rehash it again here. I truely believe (especially now) that fate points and destiny experience need to be separated so that you can continue earning fate points regardless of your current destiny. This allows players to enjoy the game more while playing their characters the way they were intended. You could make the fate point experience higher, but a flat rate possibly, I'm not sure. I just know that the current form is not really working well, and with the new plan they've suggested, will only make things even less desireable.

    Combined with that, I also think that the connection between destinies needs to be removed. Allow us to choose any destiny we want from anywhere in the tree. If we're going to be forced to have it all deleted upon each TR, then we should only have to do the one's we want and not be forced to grind our way around the tree again.


    Turbine, you have a great game, and from time to time you come up with great idea's (I love the new augment system). This one isn't bad, but please listen to your players and make adjustments to it based on everyone who will be affected.

    Remember, one of the major issues everyone is having is that up until now you've promised us that our ED xp would be maintained and now you're saying it won't be.

    Thanks for listening
    Leader of The Madborn, Thelanis
    Searros, Kangaros, Xearos, Fearos, Tearos, Zenros, Rocknros, Rargasauros, Whilyros, Frostyros, Rosificer, Levonestral, Clankros, Stabbyros

  20. #660

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    Quote Originally Posted by fluffi View Post
    Another way to do it.
    You have max ED, bond it and then you epic TR back to 20.
    While levelling you choose an ED (as usual) to gain XP from. BUT you now have the option to use your bonded ED instead of your chosen one while still gaining XP for the chosen one.
    Hmm...an interesting idea.

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