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  1. #481
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovrad View Post
    You know, supposing the ED PL are decent, I'm ok with this change if i can keep my fate points!

    Seriously, the fate points are the main reason we grinded out all those ED, otherwise only a handful are actually useful per toon. If I were to lose most of my ED, but keep all my fate points, I'd be really looking forward to this change.
    Me too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osharan_Tregarth View Post
    I think the main sticking point here is for the people that went ahead and (using the current system as designed) maxed out all of their epic destinies.

    We (I'll include myself in this group) did this, by some horrendously tedious xp grinding, knowing that once we put the time and effort into doing it, we'd never have to do it again. 16.5 million xp, at a minimum. It sucked.

    We put up with lousy destinies for the character we were playing (My sorc really gets nothing out of shadowdancer. Or dreadnought. Or a large variety of other epic destinies), so that we could get them done, and with the system in place, we'd never have to go back to them.

    I understand that there were some unsanctioned "shortcuts" that people were using to sidestep the "having to progress through an off destiny to earn fate points", but if you put in a system where you are going to arbitrarily wipe out all current destiny progress except for the one "bonded" destiny, you are going to alienate those people. A lot. And by "those people", I mean me. And a fair chunk of the people I run with. I can't claim to speak for "everyone", and I won't try to.

    Whatever you come up with at this point, needs to take into account the existing players that have already put weeks and months into getting their characters done.

    For new characters going forward, no problem. I can see that the system will be much easier and less grindy.

    I'd suggest some type of token system when the update hits, that will serve as a one time unlock for each of the destinies that have already been done. So someone with 11 destinies at level five, would have 11 tokens that they could use after reincarnating, to preserve the time and effort that has already been done. Make em a min level 25, and do it for existing characters a week or two before the update hits. Or a month or two. But something.
    It's not just players who capped all their EDs. It's players who have invested ANY amount of time in the EDs. I'll use myself as an example. I have three characters that have ground out some EDs. Each one has only capped out a single ED, but each one has invested anywhere from 1 bubble to 5 tiers in other EDs. I will get just as penalized as a maxed ED players if there is a wipe when I TR. I hated several of those EDs and that's why I didn't invest more time in some than I needed to advance into a different sphere (looking at you GMoF).

    So what you are proposing would be just as big slap in the face to me as it would be to wipe all the ED XP for everyone. The best solution, I shall repeat, is to erase the Epic Level XP when you TR while keeping the ED XP, but players must choose the ED to bond with to gain the TR perks for that life. Everyone will be roughly on the same footing. Everyone will need to TR the same amount of TRs to become a completionist. No one will lose anything.

  3. #483
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osharan_Tregarth View Post
    I think the main sticking point here is for the people that went ahead and (using the current system as designed) maxed out all of their epic destinies.

    We (I'll include myself in this group) did this, by some horrendously tedious xp grinding, knowing that once we put the time and effort into doing it, we'd never have to do it again. 16.5 million xp, at a minimum. It sucked.

    We put up with lousy destinies for the character we were playing (My sorc really gets nothing out of shadowdancer. Or dreadnought. Or a large variety of other epic destinies), so that we could get them done, and with the system in place, we'd never have to go back to them.

    I understand that there were some unsanctioned "shortcuts" that people were using to sidestep the "having to progress through an off destiny to earn fate points", but if you put in a system where you are going to arbitrarily wipe out all current destiny progress except for the one "bonded" destiny, you are going to alienate those people. A lot. And by "those people", I mean me. And a fair chunk of the people I run with. I can't claim to speak for "everyone", and I won't try to.

    Whatever you come up with at this point, needs to take into account the existing players that have already put weeks and months into getting their characters done.

    For new characters going forward, no problem. I can see that the system will be much easier and less grindy.

    I'd suggest some type of token system when the update hits, that will serve as a one time unlock for each of the destinies that have already been done. So someone with 11 destinies at level five, would have 11 tokens that they could use after reincarnating, to preserve the time and effort that has already been done. Make em a min level 25, and do it for existing characters a week or two before the update hits. Or a month or two. But something.
    I have to agree with the message here. Players were under the assumption that destinies would be leveled once and that's it. We got used to that. It was "normal" and expected for players. The devs even went so far as to put in place safety measures for players that did unintentionally lose epic destiny xp during a TR. Now, that all changes. If we wish to participate in heroic TR like we used to, we are being punished (relatively speaking of course. We are worse off than we were if we TR'ed 6 months earlier). You are taking away something we never expected to lose. Not only is it poor form, but it also sets a horrible precedent. Any achievement in game that we think is sacred can be stripped away, nerfed or proxy nerfed on a whim. You cannot remove player faith in the game and mechanics. It's what we need to keep the desire to advance our characters. Why advance (grind) when it may be all for nothing at any given time? We need mechanical stability in the game. Stripping destinies upon heroic TR is the same as stripping away the mechanical stability of the game. If the game mechanics are ever changing, then our goals are ever changing as well. It's hard to set long term goals when you have no faith that goal will be worth pursuing in the future.

    Now there are certain aspects of the game that break this rule. We know that new loot will obsolete old loot eventually. However, this is a known factor. We play knowing this will happen. It's unfortunate that we have old underused loot, but there are no player illusions that this loot was ever going to be endgame forever. Epic TR also falls under this category. It's a completely new mechanic. I may not like the destiny wipe that is associated with an epic TR, but it doesn't break anything that was previously in place. It lives in its own mechanical bubble and I can take it or leave it. Discussion of epic TR is obviously important, but in the end it doesn't effect my game mechanic confidence the way that changing how heroic TR works.

    Please do not wipe destiny xp on heroic TR. Don't change something that was already working fine to suit your whimsical needs and shake player confidence in the process. Nobody wins.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  4. #484
    Community Member Kayla93's Avatar
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    Well... Ill say how I see it.
    Im glad devs posted it in here before implementing and hope theyll read our opinions and adjust changes.
    Few important matters for me.

    1. This is EPIC TR - I was really hoping I wouldnt be put on lvl 1 again... (yeah yeah.. Destiny ranks... so lets say 12 or Iconic 15 lvl). Id like Epic TR to be 20-28 only. What Im asking for is:
    a) Leave Heroic TR with no ED loss, as 1-20 TR.
    b) Implement Epic TR as 28 to 20 drop with EDs loss and Epic Advantage.
    Honestly - people who HAVE completionist and already ran probably like 20 times on 1 character 1-20 lvls are not going to be happy to have to do it again.
    And for most playerbase - like me - even with tomes and pots and bravery doing heroic completionist is a looong grind. I mean - I play like medium 3-4 hours a day (which is more like 9 in weekend and a lot less other days... but medium is 3-4. My 1 TR 1-20 - not alone - with at least 1 friend who has time always when I do - on BB, and 10% pot being on all time and 30% pot on shadow crypt, litania and wizzking - this TR takes me around 2 months to complete. Its a lot of time.
    Also - I TRed like 6 times (I play over 2 years now) and honestly - I really dont want to go thro the same again and again and again.
    I really like the idea of Epic TR putting us at 20. Even if it means loss my grinded out EDs. But Id like some advantage over ppl who did not grind them out. Maybe lets put these in epic ranks too? So some ppl can start at lvl 24 already.

    2. Loose of EDs.
    Ok, I get it, its ETR and all... I may agree to loosing my EDs if like above:
    ETR puts you on 20 and all destinies besides the bound one are giving you ranks to 20+.

    3. Fate points:
    This needs to be resolved - loosing them all after grinding them out wouldnt be cool...Maybe leave them as they are with max cap.
    I have one idea.... You may resign from fate points from your non-bound destiny to be able to put XP in one destiny, but play in your main one.




    Summary - my vision of Epic True Reincarnation:
    You loose all EDs besides the bound ones - when you ETR your active destiny becomes bound.
    You land on lvl 20 and all xp from non-bound destinies are given you back to your 20+ lvl.
    Also after every TR for each ED you gain some past life or however to call it.
    You dont loose your fate points - but you cant get more than X. You have an option to resign from all your fate points from unbound destinies which gives u ability to be in your main picked destiny and earn xp for another one.
    Thats all.

    Heroic TR stays as it is - with no touch to EDs.
    Last edited by Kayla93; 06-13-2013 at 12:52 PM.

  5. #485
    Community Member grausherra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)
    This seems backwards, shouldn't we only lose the 1 ED that we have maxed and active when we ETR?

    If you want to reward us for the work, rather than punish us, do this:

    "When you Epic TR you must have 1 active, non-bonded, max level ED. This ED is bonded and reset(but still unlocked!) and you get it's past ED feat. No other ED is touched, but fate points ARE lost for the ED that is reset. Upon reincarnation you receive exp enough for 7 bonus levels(or 3 for an iconic)."

    Also, if you go forwards with this backwards notion you initially proposed what are you going to with those of us who bought keys of fate?

  6. #486
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osharan_Tregarth View Post
    I think the main sticking point here is for the people that went ahead and (using the current system as designed) maxed out all of their epic destinies.

    We (I'll include myself in this group) did this, by some horrendously tedious xp grinding, knowing that once we put the time and effort into doing it, we'd never have to do it again. 16.5 million xp, at a minimum. It sucked.

    We put up with lousy destinies for the character we were playing (My sorc really gets nothing out of shadowdancer. Or dreadnought. Or a large variety of other epic destinies), so that we could get them done, and with the system in place, we'd never have to go back to them.

    Seriously, why do you think you 'have to go back to them' with that character? Just don't ETR the character(s) you ground out max destinies for. The rewards aren't worth it if you don't enjoy re-acquiring those xps.

    I've got one character with a lot of EDs who I will never ETR for that reason. Problem solved.

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Seriously, why do you think you 'have to go back to them' with that character? Just don't ETR the character(s) you ground out max destinies for. The rewards aren't worth it if you don't enjoy re-acquiring those xps.

    I've got one character with a lot of EDs who I will never ETR for that reason. Problem solved.
    I do not understand what it is you are failing to grasp about the plan as Glin said it in the original post. If you do *ANY* type of true reincarnation, then *ALL* your destiny experience gets reset to zero. So, does not matter if you heroic TR, Iconic TR, or Epic TR. Doing anything defined as "true reincarnation" will reset your destiny experience. Now do you understand why people are upset?

  8. #488
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This.

    If we can keep all our fate points, AND they get rid of the ED map (where you have to have 3-4 ranks in an useless destiny to unlock a destiny you do want), then I might be for this.

    This is a chance to fix the ED system... I don't mind losing all the grind I've already done if I can keep the fate points, and my twist slots and can level in any ED I want. Because then I can just relevel the 3-5 EDs I'm interested in (and have fun playing while doing it) instead of wasting time getting magister ranks on my fighter to unlock twists...

    If we have to re-grind the fate points again, wasting time AGAIN in EDs that suck for our character, then I agree the proposed system is terrible.

    Turbine . . . you lost Thrudh.

    Canary in a coalmine?

  9. #489
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Seriously, why do you think you 'have to go back to them' with that character? Just don't ETR the character(s) you ground out max destinies for. The rewards aren't worth it if you don't enjoy re-acquiring those xps.

    I've got one character with a lot of EDs who I will never ETR for that reason. Problem solved.
    Because if you Heroic TR, you lose all the XP. If you TR at ALL, you lose the XP. Your character is basically stuck without the ability to TR unless you want to lose all your ED progress (except for up to 1 ED).

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Epic Advantage


    With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  10. #490
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This.

    If we can keep all our fate points, AND they get rid of the ED map (where you have to have 3-4 ranks in an useless destiny to unlock a destiny you do want), then I might be for this.

    This is a chance to fix the ED system... I don't mind losing all the grind I've already done if I can keep the fate points, and my twist slots and can level in any ED I want. Because then I can just relevel the 3-5 EDs I'm interested in (and have fun playing while doing it) instead of wasting time getting magister ranks on my fighter to unlock twists...

    If we have to re-grind the fate points again, wasting time AGAIN in EDs that suck for our character, then I agree the proposed system is terrible.
    This and Amen.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    So, no, I have not over-reacted to the potential loss of over 20 million exp on each of three characters. If they go ahead with this plan, I will just leave the game. I left EverQuest with a 67 druid, 65 cleric, 56 monk, 51 bard, and multiple other lower level characters back when the cap was level 80 because I decided the grind to get there (and do all the Alternative Advancement ****) was too much. The grind here is considerably (even dramatically) less than that, but grinding is not fun and I avoid it as much as possible.
    I would argue against that, and counter it with the suggestion that grind in DDO is considerably bigger than what it was in EverQuest, which after all was an extreme example of a grindy game. Sure, getting to 80 was a bigger grind than getting to 20 (25) here. It was probably comparable to what, double or triple-tr. But, the AA points were about as much as one level (80 levels, so about 1 bubble here...), and at the top tier quests doing 15-20 points was fast enough. Beyond that point getting more AA was nice and dandy, but beyond the first class-based AA:s the rest were nice-to-have bonuses that accumulated with time, not something mandatory. Of course, in EverQuest leveling up was the mandatory bad to get you raiding, which was the actual game. Here where the leveling is the game.

    For max level toons the big difference was: when you did one more AA, your toon got better. Mostly by miniscule amounts, but still better. In DDO when you cap one more destiny, you'll end up with a way worse toon with a fresh 0-level destiny. Here the the destiny grind is just annoying. You either gimp your toon for a long time to grind the destinies on easy content / farming for gear, or you decide to fry your brain and go insane by repeating same boring quest a gazillion times for 30+ hours. I did do one ID-farm for 1 hour, won't be doing the same any time soon.

    Chaining TR is fun enough, and the tactics of doing 3-4 tiers of the next destiny bubble means I only have to repeat the epic quests at most once before TRing back to Bravery-running quests once each. New system means I'll just skip epic content for good, leaving plenty of fun quests untouched. Sounds boring enough: without the occasional epic stuff, the newbie quests get boring too. Doom and game dying imminent, or at least a personal retire, I even dropped from our TR train due to not really bothering right now, maybe I'll catch up, maybe not, time will tell.

    (Disclaimer: no, I don't have maxed destinies, at most maybe 5 destinies at 3-5 bubbles. And I still think this sucks balls enough to retire as it stands).

  12. #492
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This.

    If we can keep all our fate points, AND they get rid of the ED map (where you have to have 3-4 ranks in an useless destiny to unlock a destiny you do want), then I might be for this.

    This is a chance to fix the ED system... I don't mind losing all the grind I've already done if I can keep the fate points, and my twist slots and can level in any ED I want. Because then I can just relevel the 3-5 EDs I'm interested in (and have fun playing while doing it) instead of wasting time getting magister ranks on my fighter to unlock twists...

    If we have to re-grind the fate points again, wasting time AGAIN in EDs that suck for our character, then I agree the proposed system is terrible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Turbine . . . you lost Thrudh.

    Canary in a coalmine?
    This proves it, the doom is real.

  13. #493
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
    In the defense of the d00000m . . . that's not how it was presented to us. Also historically it takes and agry mob to get you guys to listen to us.

    It shouldn't get to 24 pages of d00m before we get some feedback, it should be a conversation from the get go.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyopa View Post
    If this is true (and it appears it probably is), then your producers should not come on here and say "Hey, look! We're planning to hose you by year's end!" - because that is exactly what Glin did. S/He said this was going to be released later this year, which means this has been in the works and is not "far in advance of its implementation". Get your facts straight within your company, have your talking points well-defined, and make sure your spokespeople know the talking points and stick to them and THEN start a dialogue with your customers.
    5+ months is pretty far in advanced for any mmo. (November for U20, which they did not commit to, could be later)

    And they said they were PLANNING on trying to implement it later this year. It's not a for real thing until it's and update on lammania.

    So, maybe you should get your facts straight too.

    I'm not a fan of Heroic TR resetting ED XP, and I've posted my feedback and possible solutions, but i also don't expect them to completely rework their ideas in a day. Instead, I now wait, and if i haven't seen any proposed changes to the system by this time next week, I'll post my thoughts again, in general or suggestions/ideas.

  15. #495
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post
    Keep the current TR system in place where you don't loose Destiny XP. Then ad an epic system that erases one destiny's XP at a time (not all of them) then you have to regrind it at an increased cost like current heroic TR.
    This is a very interesting idea...

    Say you have all 11 capped, and you want to get the ED past life for Fury... Well, you Epic TR, lose all exp in the Fury ED ONLY... But you get the "past-life" for Fury, and now you have to recap just Fury.. but it costs 3 million instead of 1.9 million... But the good news is that it probably is an ED you LIKE (since you wanted the "past-life" benefit), so releveling in it might actually be somewhat fun...
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  16. #496
    Community Member Towrn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    This is a very interesting idea...

    Say you have all 11 capped, and you want to get the ED past life for Fury... Well, you Epic TR, lose all exp in the Fury ED ONLY... But you get the "past-life" for Fury, and now you have to recap just Fury.. but it costs 3 million instead of 1.9 million... But the good news is that it probably is an ED you LIKE (since you wanted the "past-life" benefit), so releveling in it might actually be somewhat fun...
    Sounds similar (with a twist) to what many people (myself included) have already posted.

    This is more the line of thinking that seems to make sense to most players. At least the ones that are posting in the thread.
    Knorgh (Pally/monk) Currently on life number 32

  17. #497
    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
    ... If you disagree, that just means your opinion is worthless. ...

    If we were ever to adopt a motto for the new age of the forums...

    /Returns to lurk mode.
    CEO - Cupcake's Muskateers, Thelanis
    DDO Freebies ____ Monster Manual


  18. #498

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    Wonders which vendors sell pitchforks?

    http://ddowiki.com/index.php?search=...ecial%3ASearch

    Wander off to search the DDO store for Pitchforks...

  19. #499
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Well, after having been logged out while typing a reply numerous times.. (I thought this was fixed?!?!)

    I'll shorten my response to this:

    1. Losing months worth of effort grinding out destinies just to reincarnate is a terrible idea. Please don't do this. I will never TR again if this is implemented. It takes all the effort, feel-good, progression (call it what you will) and throws it in the trash if you decide you want to TR.

    2. Heroic TR and Epic TR should have absolutely nothing to do with each other. This is the way they were designed, and it works just fine. Allow Epic TR's to restart at lvl 20 without impacting any of their heroic build choices. Allow Heroic TR to restart at level 1 without impacting any of their EP build choices.

    So far those are my 2 copper.

    There are so many more, but frankly, I'm disgusted by these intial ideas, and it appears I'm not alone on this.
    Please don't kill this game, it's nearly on life support already. Couple bad management with rushed buggy products and poorly conceived ideas and... *sigh*
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  20. #500
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerPounce View Post Keep the current TR system in place where you don't loose Destiny XP. Then ad an epic system that erases one destiny's XP at a time (not all of them) then you have to regrind it at an increased cost like current heroic TR.THIS


    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    "I like pie. Pie is delicious." "You know, cake is better", and a sudden nerf gun war breaks out because Pie is supreme. Then someone says, "What about dinner?"

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