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  1. #41
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Yep. On the same time and same timezone.

    And yeah - epic is a wasteland.

    I've been trying a little experiment to see under what conditions, groups get filled. I've made 5 attempts: 2 f2p quests and 3 p2p quests, all below lvl 18. Of the 5 attempts, I've had 2 parties fill 2 4 slots. The rest, no one joins. Even when I specifying "anyone welcome", it is literally a crp-shoot to get people to join.
    Which quests though, if you're p2p content was for example threnal or restless isles content well would that really be surprising that they didn't fill?

  2. #42
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Which quests though, if you're p2p content was for example threnal or restless isles content well would that really be surprising that they didn't fill?
    Thta's a good question.

    The f2p was Lords of Dust - one filled, one did not. Those, I'm fairly certain, are popular quests. The the others were Fleashmakers (in Orchard) where I had one fill, and one did not, and Inferno (orchard again) where it did not fill.

    Now, I'm uncertain about the popularity of orchard quests, but the Orchard wilderness seems to be up, and active quite a bit.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    It is EASIER to solo 99% of the Heroics than it is to group.

    You are denying reality if you don't think scaling affects grouping.
    The reality is, for me, I've never cared outside of Colossal Crystal grinding (because wiping in the last 2m does mean a waste of 20m). Sure, it might be nominally easier to solo content, but I can barely even remember the last time I wiped in heroic content regardless of party makeup or scaling. Now, I'm pretty caerful about building toons, so I can solo most content even with a full party, but even when I couldn't, I never cared about relative difficulty as it relates to party size.

    I don't PUG because it's easier or tougher (being clear that tougher is itself hugely easy to a prepared toon), I do it because I like playing the game with others. I know I'm not the only toon doing that and large portion of the regular PUG scene has zero concern about scaling if we're judging by the actual discussion of what goes on in PUGs chat or verbal.

  4. #44
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Thta's a good question.

    The f2p was Lords of Dust - one filled, one did not. Those, I'm fairly certain, are popular quests. The the others were Fleashmakers (in Orchard) where I had one fill, and one did not, and Inferno (orchard again) where it did not fill.

    Now, I'm uncertain about the popularity of orchard quests, but the Orchard wilderness seems to be up, and active quite a bit.
    inferno is pretty well hated in my experience, and fleshmakers has some issues because of the interrupt bug, I wouldn't want to try fleshmakers right now without a very good enhanter wizzy in the party. Normally fleshmakers would be very good imo but with the current bug it's rough.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Thta's a good question.

    The f2p was Lords of Dust - one filled, one did not. Those, I'm fairly certain, are popular quests. The the others were Fleashmakers (in Orchard) where I had one fill, and one did not, and Inferno (orchard again) where it did not fill.

    Now, I'm uncertain about the popularity of orchard quests, but the Orchard wilderness seems to be up, and active quite a bit.
    Orchard quests have always been unpopular outside of Temple of Vol, but wilderness has always been popular to grind XP and Tapestries. Your only real chance to fill those others is doing it using the BB hook, and even then it might not happen.

    Lords... definitely less popular than it used to be. Most of the gear is meh given newer stuff, so it gets run once on herioc, and a bit more on Epic. Even on EPIC there's little sense in running it often because you'll risk degrading the XP until you cap at 25. I'd say that is a bigger concern than BB, or any other factor between 20-24 for me. I won't run something more than twice on Epic levels until I hit 25.

    I'd say the most popular quest chains right now, at least end game:

    GH
    High Road
    Schindrylyn
    Carnival
    Vault of Night

    A lot of that has do with there actually being something of value that can drop from those quest chains that means a lot of people will jump on for that chance and the xp. XP alone isn't reason enough.

  6. #46
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    inferno is pretty well hated in my experience, and fleshmakers has some issues because of the interrupt bug, I wouldn't want to try fleshmakers right now without a very good enhanter wizzy in the party. Normally fleshmakers would be very good imo but with the current bug it's rough.
    Yeah, Inferno sucks. Totally agree.

    Fleshmakers? Not sure about the interrupt bug, but we finish3ed successfully without enchantment spells. The key is everybody being invisible except maybe one person who can aggro mobs. In fact, when we did it, it was one of the few times the runes were hit like clockwork.

  7. #47
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    Orchard quests have always been unpopular outside of Temple of Vol, but wilderness has always been popular to grind XP and Tapestries. Your only real chance to fill those others is doing it using the BB hook, and even then it might not happen.

    Lords... definitely less popular than it used to be. Most of the gear is meh given newer stuff, so it gets run once on herioc, and a bit more on Epic. Even on EPIC there's little sense in running it often because you'll risk degrading the XP until you cap at 25. I'd say that is a bigger concern than BB, or any other factor between 20-24 for me. I won't run something more than twice on Epic levels until I hit 25.

    I'd say the most popular quest chains right now, at least end game:

    GH
    High Road
    Schindrylyn
    Carnival
    Vault of Night

    A lot of that has do with there actually being something of value that can drop from those quest chains that means a lot of people will jump on for that chance and the xp. XP alone isn't reason enough.
    Ok, well, since I have a toon that is in the correct range for High Road, I'll do a little test on that (hopefully soon).

    And I think I am wrong on the number of quests. I think I did 4 in the Orchard - 2 fleshmakers, 1 Inferno, and one Temple of Vol (now that you've jogged my memory here). Only one of them filles. I got one guy to join the Temple quest, vbut after the 20 min limit was up, we had no takers. So we disbanded.

    But again, I'll try High road and see what happens.

  8. #48
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Yeah, Inferno sucks. Totally agree.

    Fleshmakers? Not sure about the interrupt bug, but we finish3ed successfully without enchantment spells. The key is everybody being invisible except maybe one person who can aggro mobs. In fact, when we did it, it was one of the few times the runes were hit like clockwork.

    That works too, just if you get interrupted right now it bugs out completion, my solution was a wizzy to charm them, invis with a kiter works too.

  9. #49
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    The reality is, for me, I've never cared outside of Colossal Crystal grinding (because wiping in the last 2m does mean a waste of 20m). Sure, it might be nominally easier to solo content, but I can barely even remember the last time I wiped in heroic content regardless of party makeup or scaling. Now, I'm pretty caerful about building toons, so I can solo most content even with a full party, but even when I couldn't, I never cared about relative difficulty as it relates to party size.

    I don't PUG because it's easier or tougher (being clear that tougher is itself hugely easy to a prepared toon), I do it because I like playing the game with others. I know I'm not the only toon doing that and large portion of the regular PUG scene has zero concern about scaling if we're judging by the actual discussion of what goes on in PUGs chat or verbal.
    Scaling doesn't affect puggers. Puggers are grouping. Scaling affects the number of people who are grouping. It's easier to solo a good portion of the content so there is no need to group. Pulling off the content for a good portion of the game as an inexperienced player soloing then grouping at the point where you can't manage to solo is where scaling will kick you in the groin. Been in a couple of runs where the guy leading says something along the lines of "This should be easy cause I soloed it earlier on hard I just couldn't get elite alone" followed by the inevitable charge of confidence from having help only to get completely stomped in record time. I know it's coming every time. Scaling also removed alot of the challenge option from the game and it's pointlessly redundant with difficulty settings. But difficulty settings are pretty pointless now as well and equipped buffed Trs make challenge pointless for most anything but endgame. Still getting rid of it would be another step in the right direction as long as it correlated with making all of the difficulty settings once again viable choices for running in groups instead of hard/elite only.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Ok, well, since I have a toon that is in the correct range for High Road, I'll do a little test on that (hopefully soon).

    And I think I am wrong on the number of quests. I think I did 4 in the Orchard - 2 fleshmakers, 1 Inferno, and one Temple of Vol (now that you've jogged my memory here). Only one of them filles. I got one guy to join the Temple quest, vbut after the 20 min limit was up, we had no takers. So we disbanded.

    But again, I'll try High road and see what happens.
    I filled High Road in <5m for the whole chain the other day. Same with Epic Carnival.

    I forgot in the earlier post, but Epic Druids Deep (sic) tends to fill as well, but few people like to lead it I've found.

    You can almost always fill a group for Don't Drink the Water, but again, it's about a chance at scales for most PUGs.

    Regardless of how welcoming your LFM is, I feel like you have to be PUGging some content that has a draw other than XP, unless you're talking pure speed XP runs like ID. I scan the LFMs the minute I get on, and if there's little in the quest worth running for beyond XP, I'll either put up my own LFM for something else, or wait until one that's more interesting pops up. There's way too many ways to get XP and a chance at some nice rare loot/drops at the end game to spend it in quests that don't offer it. And once people have the PDK favor, there's little sense in re-running some Epic PDK stuff.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orratti View Post
    Scaling doesn't affect puggers. Puggers are grouping. Scaling affects the number of people who are grouping. It's easier to solo a good portion of the content so there is no need to group. Pulling off the content for a good portion of the game as an inexperienced player soloing then grouping at the point where you can't manage to solo is where scaling will kick you in the groin. Been in a couple of runs where the guy leading says something along the lines of "This should be easy cause I soloed it earlier on hard I just couldn't get elite alone" followed by the inevitable charge of confidence from having help only to get completely stomped in record time. I know it's coming every time. Scaling also removed alot of the challenge option from the game and it's pointlessly redundant with difficulty settings. But difficulty settings are pretty pointless now as well and equipped buffed Trs make challenge pointless for most anything but endgame. Still getting rid of it would be another step in the right direction as long as it correlated with making all of the difficulty settings once again viable choices for running in groups instead of hard/elite only.
    I understand that's what is claimed. But, here's what complaining about scaling sounds like to me, using my experience with streetball as a reference.

    Soloers play essentially a game of one-on-one versus the other team (or machine).
    Full parties play a game of six-on-six.
    Anti-scalers appear to want play a game of six-on-one.
    Regular PUGgers already PUG quests like the scaled version of the game is six-on-one the vast majority of the time.

    Do more people want to play twelve-on-one than people who will quit because twelve-on-one could hardly be even described as a game?

    Sure, since there's no intelligence or toon test before putting up an LFM, there are going to be people who aren't prepared to lead, really at any difficulty, but will throw their hat in the ring. Should they get obliterated by the quest as a result? Absolutely. Hopefully they learn, sometimes they don't. Now, if someone keeps joining their LFMs, as opposed to just putting up their own, I'd suggest some fault doesn't lie with leader.

    If one knows enough to lead a quest and is remotely well-geared, scaling isn't something to be the least bit afraid of. I've been in everything full scale and I think people are imagining this huge bogeyman when it come to scaling that doesn't exist except for the unprepared. You want real scaling, as in gives even experienced toons a real challenge, run Colossal Crystals with a full party and see what happens when the mobs spawn after you take the crystal.

  12. #52
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliftkk_v2 View Post
    I understand that's what is claimed. But, here's what complaining about scaling sounds like to me, using my experience with streetball as a reference.

    Soloers play essentially a game of one-on-one versus the other team (or machine).
    Full parties play a game of six-on-six.
    Anti-scalers appear to want play a game of six-on-one.
    Regular PUGgers already PUG quests like the scaled version of the game is six-on-one the vast majority of the time.

    Do more people want to play twelve-on-one than people who will quit because twelve-on-one could hardly be even described as a game?

    Sure, since there's no intelligence or toon test before putting up an LFM, there are going to be people who aren't prepared to lead, really at any difficulty, but will throw their hat in the ring. Should they get obliterated by the quest as a result? Absolutely. Hopefully they learn, sometimes they don't. Now, if someone keeps joining their LFMs, as opposed to just putting up their own, I'd suggest some fault doesn't lie with leader.

    If one knows enough to lead a quest and is remotely well-geared, scaling isn't something to be the least bit afraid of. I've been in everything full scale and I think people are imagining this huge bogeyman when it come to scaling that doesn't exist except for the unprepared. You want real scaling, as in gives even experienced toons a real challenge, run Colossal Crystals with a full party and see what happens when the mobs spawn after you take the crystal.
    Really past the point of 6 on 1 you lost me. I'm certainly not afraid of scaling although it has even caught me by surprise after running several quests solo then grouping up. It's not that people aren't prepared to lead either. It's that when they come upon an encounter in a group the enemies are tougher than expected for no obvious reason. Whether you get obliterated by a quest should depend on what difficulty you choose to play it on and nothing else. Certainly not by changes to the enemies based on the number of people you have with you.

    I'm not looking for "real" scaling either. The dungeons were designed to run in groups. Choosing to solo or shortman them should have no effect on them at all. If there is an effect it should be as a difficulty setting called "solo".

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Bravery bonus is the best thing to happen to leveling in DDO.
    Yup! I remember the pre-BB days. I don't miss them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Repeating quests is boring, sucks, is retarded, etc . . . anything that reduces the need to repeat content is awesome.
    <snip>
    Window farming sucks.

    Running Shadowcrypt/RWTD/Litany until your eyes bleed sucks.
    Yes, all that, too.

    I prefer running all sorts of different quests, not just a few many times.

    I prefer getting XP in a somewhat efficient manner.

    Before BB, I could have one or the other. Bravery bonus lets me have both.

    I've never heard any coherent explanation for how BB destroys grouping. I have no particular difficulty joining groups or getting others to join mine.

    Is it really so hard to start your own Hard or Normal LFM if you don't want to do Elite? Or is it just sour groups? "If I can't handle Elite, nobody else should get any kind of bonus for it!"

  14. #54
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    I like the bravery bonus too. I agree with some things mentioned by the op, and disagree with others.

    I agree that for veteran players, elite is the only difficulty that is remotely challenging. At least up until the late teens.

    I strongly disagree with the fallacy that dungeon scaling makes soloing elite easier than it is for a group. This is a belief that i only see on the forums. Nobody i have played with in game thinks this. This belief must come from the method of splitting up, i.e 'solo a tower' style of play. For players that actually stick together in a dungeon, there is just no way it's true.

    As for anyone who encounters lfm's which exclude at level players in elite streak runs, i swear i've never seen one. I play on Argonessen, and i really haven't. I personally only consider power leveling when i make my lfm's. At 4 levels apart, the lower level player receives a 50% xp penalty. So i make my lfm's with a 3 level range.

    That being said, it's pretty silly if somebody who is level 8 wants to run a level 12 quest on elite. Even if they can handle it. For me, it's kind of like watching a dog drink out of a toilet. If you've gone through all of the content up till level 11, and you're only level 8, you've done something wrong. Buy some packs. Something.

  15. #55
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Is it really so hard to start your own Hard or Normal LFM if you don't want to do Elite? Or is it just sour groups? "If I can't handle Elite, nobody else should get any kind of bonus for it!"
    It isn't hard to make those lfm's. It's just hard to get anyone to join them. Most veteran players wont do them. It means that they still would have to go back and run the quest on elite. There simply aren't enough new players on at any given time to fill them.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There's been a lot of whining about BB being terrible, and all these people are wrong.

    Bravery bonus is the best thing to happen to leveling in DDO.

    Repeating quests is boring, sucks, is retarded, etc . . . anything that reduces the need to repeat content is awesome.

    This game is only remotely challenging on Elite. Anything that encourages people to up their game and run things on the highest difficulty is a good thing.

    Window farming sucks.

    Running Shadowcrypt/RWTD/Litany until your eyes bleed sucks.

    Can't cut it in elite? Run hard it's much easier and you'll still get a ton of XP.

    Drop you streak when done with Heroics, you'll still level up just fine. Having a streak in the hundreds or thousands doesn't make your package any bigger nor does it increase the size of your bank account, heck it isn't even envy worthy of other players.

    So keep bravery bonus, it's awesome.
    I like BB too. most of the heroic content isn't as hard to complete solo or solo with hire like it used to be, so with a little game experience and knowledge, I can make my way to 20 pretty much on my own. dropping to hard BB in epic levels, I am able to do the same thing. I just pug elite for certain heroic quests and in epics for better loot, favor, may be too tough to solo or need extra lever pulling bodies and challenge.

    I try to limit how much repeating quests I do. I still like a lot of the quests, but I don't want to get bored of them. when I level, I try to do as much as I can in the level range on elite before resorting back to hard and normal for first time xp. even when I was on my TR train, I didn't hard farm the best xp or xp/min quests to hurry my way to 20.

    im a big fan of challenge and im always talking about how the game has been dumbed down over the past few years, but the biggest problem with BB, which is almost always elite, is that is what players mostly run and what you mostly see on the lfm. this includes first life characters when running hard/norm would be enough xp to cap. when new players or inexperienced players look at the lfm, they see mostly elite BB lfms and those are probably not the best fit for them. unfortunately, it can be hard to fill a group just running hard or norm, so I can see these kinds of players joining elite BB groups. it can be frustrating for some players who would like to group with others and they see its easier to join groups that they are not yet ready for. when this happens, finger pointing, drama and griefing can happen and than we get to read about these stories on the forums.

  17. #57
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    I just think people have forgotten a few facts when they rage about bravery bonus.

    1) Jerk behavior in groups and on lfms has been in this game since I started. It's not new. It's not because of the bravery bonus. If the bonus went away right now, the jerk behavior would continue, just over different things.

    2) As was stated before, but it bears repeated, redoing the same tired quests over and over is...boring. Doing once and done and onto the next quests every life is a LOT more fun than doing a few high xp quests over and over and skipping the rest of the game. Bravery bonus actually encourages people to branch out and do more quests than they were doing by upping the xp they receive on those quests.

    3) Scaling was in the game long before bravery bonus, and people were already making group/solo decisions on that. And a lot of people actaully are not social. Some people want to make a few freinds and stick to their group. Some will play with anyone. And some don't want to play with anyone, period, outside of raids. Each to their own, if you try to change the mechanics to force people to play with others who don't want to, no one is going to have a good time.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Then again it's usually 3-4 of us filling 2-3 spots and we never need a healer or a rogue so admittedly it's easier for us than some other groups.
    It's probably easier for you and different perspective, because you are "known". If you say we got half the playerbase, it must be much worse for someone else.
    One can be the nicest person but we all know many people are "selective" on different levels. Sometimes you just want stuff done.

    Unknown citw/fot/elite Shroud might never fill, well known "raider"/guild/name will much faster. Just saying.

  19. #59
    Community Member Orratti's Avatar
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    If I'm running lvl 6 elites on a lvl 8 toon the sweet spot for the lfm posting is "blank quest elite for BB lvl 7-8". Knowing how the mechanic works I already know that while I could open it up to a 5-8 lvl group the 5s and 6s in the group would be better off running lvl 3 and 4 quests on elite before they pass on to lvl 6 quests. In fact the sweet spot really is just plain lvl 8 toons.

    Almost no one is saying they can't handle at lvl elites for the bonus. Elites for a good while are easy enough that one good party member can carry a whole group through them. What is recognized by those who would have preferred a better solution to the huge Tr xp requirements is that the mechanic of it narrows the level range of the group. Beforehand a group could have been 5-8, 6-9, 7-10 and still gotten full xp for the quest.

    Bravery bonuses make leveling easier. So what? This is the only solution that could have made leveling easier? Dropping xp requirements couldn't make leveling easier? Selling 100% xp pots couldn't make leveling easier? Seriously you can't think of anything else that would have made leveling easier? Not very creative.

    It doesn't improve the game. It just fixes an annoying grind that isn't even necessary to take part in in order to appease those who whined about the grind.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    2) As was stated before, but it bears repeated, redoing the same tired quests over and over is...boring. Doing once and done and onto the next quests every life is a LOT more fun than doing a few high xp quests over and over and skipping the rest of the game. Bravery bonus actually encourages people to branch out and do more quests than they were doing by upping the xp they receive on those quests.

    3) Scaling was in the game long before bravery bonus, and people were already making group/solo decisions on that. And a lot of people actaully are not social. Some people want to make a few freinds and stick to their group. Some will play with anyone. And some don't want to play with anyone, period, outside of raids. Each to their own, if you try to change the mechanics to force people to play with others who don't want to, no one is going to have a good time.
    To show how creativity can be used to solve these problems better than they were actually solved here you go.

    #2)Trs could have been autograted a feat that let them recieve extra xp as long as they were doing at level hard/elites no matter whether the people around them were at level or the two levels over the quest range where regular xp was recieved. Probaly would have been bugged for a while of course but after being fixed wouldn't have affected the rest of the playerbase.

    #3) A box could have been created that could be checked by the players to turn on and off scaling for those who wanted it and for those who didn't. See bug disclaimer above.

    These changes wanted by a few players changed the ENTIRE GAME for EVERYONE. It's not the player's fault though because there could have been solutions that didn't force some new mechanic down EVERYONE'S throat whether they wanted it or not.

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