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  1. #1
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Default I love Bravery Bonis

    There's been a lot of whining about BB being terrible, and all these people are wrong.

    Bravery bonus is the best thing to happen to leveling in DDO.

    Repeating quests is boring, sucks, is retarded, etc . . . anything that reduces the need to repeat content is awesome.

    This game is only remotely challenging on Elite. Anything that encourages people to up their game and run things on the highest difficulty is a good thing.

    Window farming sucks.

    Running Shadowcrypt/RWTD/Litany until your eyes bleed sucks.

    Can't cut it in elite? Run hard it's much easier and you'll still get a ton of XP.

    Drop you streak when done with Heroics, you'll still level up just fine. Having a streak in the hundreds or thousands doesn't make your package any bigger nor does it increase the size of your bank account, heck it isn't even envy worthy of other players.

    So keep bravery bonus, it's awesome.

  2. #2
    2015 DDO Players Council Sebastrd's Avatar
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    Post deleted
    Last edited by Sebastrd; 06-12-2013 at 01:38 PM.

    Astreya the Unturning

    It's always a shame when the hammer of poor design choices smashes the fun of player tactical adaptation.

  3. #3
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    Agreed.

    There's been a lot of blaming jerky behavior lately on Bravery Bonus, but it's usually a safer bet to blame jerky behavior on jerks than trying to appease them. A jerk is just a jerk.

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    What do you do at cap ? Run FoT, Citw, occasional EE, Rusted Blades/Demands, look pretty on the guild ship. Then you get bored so you TR.
    There would be much less TRing ( and DDO ) if bravery wouldn't exist. Usual complainers are people with 1st life toons.
    But
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Running Shadowcrypt/RWTD/Litany until your eyes bleed rocks.
    ftfy

  5. #5
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    Just piping in that if it weren't for Bravery Bonus I would most likely play a lot less or not at all. In addition, I'd be less likely to try out new quests. Bravery Bonus rarely gets in the way of me joining a group but it often entices me into something I'd never run before.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There's been a lot of whining about BB being terrible, and all these people are wrong.

    Bravery bonus is the best thing to happen to leveling in DDO.
    The problem with BB isn't that it makes leveling nicer and also does a great job of encouraging people to run different content. I love that aspect of it myself.

    The problem with BB is that it makes 90% of the LFM's at quest level or two higher, by default. NO ONE includes one level below quest level, and in many cases you even see LFM's that wont allow AT QUEST LEVEL characters to join.

    So pre BB: 4 level range LFM by default, often more than that if the lower level character didn't mind taking a 10% powerleveling penalty.

    Post BB: at level or two higher, no exceptions, almost never see LFM's for normal or hard, and almost never see anyone willing to take a level lower than the quest level.

    This wouldn't be that big of a deal if the game wasn't already strangling grouping with other needless and sometimes obsolete exclusions like: flagging, quest location knowledge, power leveling penalty, the lack of a "sidekicks and mentors" style mechanic, and meta game knowledge assumed of the party leader or drama ensues. Among other things.

  7. #7
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    There's been a lot of whining about BB being terrible, and all these people are wrong.

    Bravery bonus is the best thing to happen to leveling in DDO.

    Repeating quests is boring, sucks, is retarded, etc . . . anything that reduces the need to repeat content is awesome.

    This game is only remotely challenging on Elite. Anything that encourages people to up their game and run things on the highest difficulty is a good thing.

    Window farming sucks.

    Running Shadowcrypt/RWTD/Litany until your eyes bleed sucks.

    Can't cut it in elite? Run hard it's much easier and you'll still get a ton of XP.

    Drop you streak when done with Heroics, you'll still level up just fine. Having a streak in the hundreds or thousands doesn't make your package any bigger nor does it increase the size of your bank account, heck it isn't even envy worthy of other players.

    So keep bravery bonus, it's awesome.
    You don't like bravery bonus: you like the increased XP on a first time completion. If you increase the first time bonus on elite by the maximum streak bonus you will be the same off without actually having to run elite first. That's a lot less restrictive.

  8. #8
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The problem with BB isn't that it makes leveling nicer and also does a great job of encouraging people to run different content. I love that aspect of it myself.

    The problem with BB is that it makes 90% of the LFM's at quest level or two higher, by default. NO ONE includes one level below quest level, and in many cases you even see LFM's that wont allow AT QUEST LEVEL characters to join.

    That's not an issue with BB . . . that's a malfunction with the players on your server. One mine (Ghallanda) the LFMs are always opens for a level range.

    If you think stupid people wouldn't continue to be stupid if BB is removed you're just wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    This wouldn't be that big of a deal if the game wasn't already strangling grouping with other needless and sometimes obsolete exclusions like: flagging, quest location knowledge, power leveling penalty, the lack of a "sidekicks and mentors" style mechanic, and meta game knowledge assumed of the party leader or drama ensues. Among other things.
    So in other words you play on a server full of jerks?

    I simply don't see this and I pug a lot.

    They were jerks before BB, they will continue to be jerks after BB. BB didn't make people jerks nor does it encourage people to be jerks.

    You want to talk about a mechanic that kills grouping you can start a Dungeon Scaling thread. Remove dungeon scaling on Elite so every added member is a benefit and not a hindrance and you'll see more people grouping. Heroic elite is easier solo by an order of magnitude and that's just plain wrong . . . but that has nothing to do with BB.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    You don't like bravery bonus: you like the increased XP on a first time completion. If you increase the first time bonus on elite by the maximum streak bonus you will be the same off without actually having to run elite first. That's a lot less restrictive.
    Restriction in games is good and a necessity. The bravery bonus concept is a good one. People having troubles grouping have something else going on, as evidenced by the fact the others of us have no trouble. That something would still exist even if BB changed.

  10. #10
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    You don't like bravery bonus: you like the increased XP on a first time completion. If you increase the first time bonus on elite by the maximum streak bonus you will be the same off without actually having to run elite first. That's a lot less restrictive.
    I like running as many quests as possible and I hate repeating quests just for XP. When I level I like the pseudo immersion you get from being an adventurer, I prefer my power-gaming retard side for end-game.

    So if what you're proposing is a big-ass bonus for first time elite that accomplishes the same thing as a streak then I'd be cool with that as well.

  11. #11
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    This wouldn't be that big of a deal if the game wasn't already strangling grouping with other needless and sometimes obsolete exclusions like: flagging, quest location knowledge, power leveling penalty, the lack of a "sidekicks and mentors" style mechanic, and meta game knowledge assumed of the party leader or drama ensues. Among other things.


    So in other words you play on a server full of jerks?

    I simply don't see this and I pug a lot.
    The thing you quoted doesn't match up with your comment, as they are all Turbine design choices and have nothing to do with the attitude of the player base on Thelanis.

    As far as the player base goes, yes I see this in nearly every LFM all night long, every night I log in. it's so rare to see a LFM that says "Elite BB" and is also open to one level below quest level, that they stick out like a sore thumb.

  12. #12
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Restriction in games is good and a necessity. The bravery bonus concept is a good one. People having troubles grouping have something else going on, as evidenced by the fact the others of us have no trouble. That something would still exist even if BB changed.
    Ah the good old, "every 1 man LFM in the panel is someone who's unpopular" canard, half the LFM's usually and rarely anyone recognizable. The things people make up to avoid reasonable but uncomfortable cause and effect relationships never fails to amaze me.

  13. #13
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    TR'ing would be so terrible without BB would be back to the limited content days of N/H/E runs effectively making it twice as long to level, I find this strange as I personally haven't heard many ppl complain about BB being too much XP. To the OP if you are looking for more of a challenge try and keep you bravery streak through epic leveling. Just my 2cp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    *fist shake* "Back in my day, we had to run the Coalescence Chamber up hill both ways! There wasn't even snow and the only slippery ice you could find was sleet storm! We had to imagine what snow would look like at Festivult time, and we liked it!"
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  14. #14
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Bravery Bonus in and of itself was a great idea that encourage and allowed for those of us that don't want to run the same quest over and over and over and ....

    But just like every great idea out there, it got twisted along the way. The community that is DDO's servers have redefined how it is used to meet their individual play styles. Being able to run elite the first time is now seen as some kind of Badge of Honor and anything run under elite is looked at as either being weak or a Farming run for speed.

    The problem is not the streak itself but how the number is perceived. Change the Streak counter to Max out at 5 and you will change the perception. People mentally can handle a small number like 5, but for some reason giving up numbers in the hundreds even though it equals 5 is harder to do.

    Also doing a one time big bonus of XP on Elite/Hard for first time completion will probably not change the current LFM system as people running elite now will continue to run elite for the bonus.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    pre BB: 4 level range LFM by default, often more than that if the lower level character didn't mind taking a 10% powerleveling penalty.
    That 4-level range is just due to the default values being really stupid. It's not a TEN percent power-level penalty, it's FIFTY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    The problem with BB is that it makes 90% of the LFM's at quest level or two higher, by default. NO ONE includes one level below quest level, and in many cases you even see LFM's that wont allow AT QUEST LEVEL characters to join.
    <snip>
    Post BB: at level or two higher, no exceptions, almost never see LFM's for normal or hard, and almost never see anyone willing to take a level lower than the quest level.
    Not my experience. Sure, for a base-level-8 quest on Elite, I SEE the listed range as 8-10, but that's just because the level-10 LFM poster was too lazy to bother changing both numbers from the default 8-12. (Whereas they had to lower 12 to 10 for BB.) I often hit such LFMs with, say, a level 7 toon, and have never been turned down yet.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoach View Post
    The problem is not the streak itself but how the number is perceived. Change the Streak counter to Max out at 5 and you will change the perception. People mentally can handle a small number like 5, but for some reason giving up numbers in the hundreds even though it equals 5 is harder to do.
    This is a really good idea and I admittedly do this sometimes too even though I know it doesn't mean anything significant. I hope a dev sees this and passes the idea on. (although there will still be the ppl that are like I have an 8 billion leet streak lol).
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    *fist shake* "Back in my day, we had to run the Coalescence Chamber up hill both ways! There wasn't even snow and the only slippery ice you could find was sleet storm! We had to imagine what snow would look like at Festivult time, and we liked it!"
    http://soundboards.cubicleninja.com/

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Ah the good old, "every 1 man LFM in the panel is someone who's unpopular" canard, half the LFM's usually and rarely anyone recognizable. The things people make up to avoid reasonable but uncomfortable cause and effect relationships never fails to amaze me.
    I'd expect 1-man LFMs to be the most common, and it has nothing to do with who is leading it. People don't like to wait around if they can avoid it, and hence, prefer to join LFMs that are closer to full (since it will take less time to fill). That means that LFMs are subject to preferential attachment, which implies the the frequency of LFMs to # of people in them is a power-law distribution. It gets distorted a bit at the end if the group wants healers or some specific role filled, however. But over all, because of people not want to wait and joining LFMs with more people in them, I'd expect 1-man LFMs to be vastly more common then the others, and the more people in the LFM, the rarer it will be.

  18. #18
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    This game is only remotely challenging on Elite. Anything that encourages people to up their game and run things on the highest difficulty is a good thing.
    True for us TR-Train Wrecks.... but the newbies just stepping off of Korthos, or Veteran or Vet II (Or Iconic.... L15 and Mod Fort?!?!) not so true. I think the best ever suggestion that I have seen on the forums was to disallow the BB for first life toons..... there is more than enough quests out there to get to 1.98 mill without too much repeating.

    There is nothing sadder* than a newbie that thinks he has to run Elite... even though he cannot.

    *every lost player is a player that is not paying turbine to develop *cough* my game.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    One mine (Ghallanda) the LFMs are always opens for a level range.
    ...

    Remove dungeon scaling on Elite so every added member is a benefit and not a hindrance and you'll see more people grouping. Heroic elite is easier solo by an order of magnitude and that's just plain wrong . . . but that has nothing to do with BB.
    On the first, agreed, I always post my PUG LFMs for one level below quest level regardless how many levels above I'm running it for.

    On the second, I can't really ever think of a time when I cared about scaling and I've PUG'ed everything. The only thing it really makes wild is a couple of the Cannith Challenges, namely Colossal Crystals and the Mansion. If someone's sweating scaling in the other quests, they might want to adjust tactics.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    People don't like to wait around if they can avoid it, and hence, prefer to join LFMs that are closer to full (since it will take less time to fill).
    Fastest way to fill an LFM is start running the content.

    Unless I'm running a chain, in which case I will give the LFM like 5 or so minutes to fill, I usually put up the LFM as I'm on the way to start the quest or as I step in. From my albiet limited anecdotal experience, people will hit an active LFM long before they'll hit a non-active one.

    I feel like an active LFM connotes a couple things to the LFM searcher:

    1. The leader who started the quest already knows what they're doing (this isn't an absolute rule, as I know at least one end game toon on the server that has a penchant for putting up EE LFMs that are destined to fail, but it's pretty close).
    2. The leader committed to running the content now, so no waiting.
    3. The leader isn't likely to turn you down, since they obviously don't need you to start.

    I'd say almost all my random LFMs fill while active.

    Then again, I'm a pretty active end gamer and most of my toons are fairly known, so that may have some effect as well.

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