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  1. #1
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    Default How do +admins define bug?

    So game just "crashed" on me, by this I mean it became unresponsive, and I couldn't quit it, so I CTRL-ALT-DEL out to try to close the game, I nearly succeeded, but my mouse was somehow disabled by exiting ddo and in frustration I just did a soft reset.

    So that's why I have time to write this, because the group I was in has surely finished the quest by now, that I badly needed and at lvl 19 couldn't solo on E for bb.

    Anyhow, ranting and raving off and to the point.

    Before the crash id been soloing the quest mining for ancient secrets(on hard if it matters). Got to end, not too rough, character has good ranged damage so I range 1st control crystal, kill spawn up top, then head down to finish, kill rest, take out other crystal and nothing...

    Didn't complete, not sure why, but one of the control crystals didn't register as destroyed, with the recent similar bugs lately not too surprised, im cooking food so I figure ill open a ticket and maybe get lucky and have it resolved while im cooking and save some time not running again after.

    Admin replies maybe a minute later, fixes it, went well. He asks if theres anything else.

    I say, "I ranged the crystal before engaging in endfight, I think that might be where the bug lies".

    He replies something like "Its not a bug, you cant range the crystals b4 going in the room".

    I reply something like "Um, but I did range the crystal b4 entering the room (not quite true, I had entered room, just hadn't come close enough to engage), so I assume its a bug when you can cause a quest to break just by using ranged attack?"

    EDIT: Admin didn't reply to my last question, just did the standard close ticket text.

    So the question is, is this really not considered a bug that a quest can me made incompletable by using a ranged weapon? Theres an odd trend in ddo where the players are blamed for problems in ddo, wether its just playing a quest in a normal way that renders it incompletable, for example this quest with ranged, snitch(tho ive not yet figured out what im doing to bug crateos), the login issues on computers that run everything else just fine(it may be related to system setup somehow, but who knows? and should that matter? seems very similar to the you should know better than to range a crystal attitude to me).

    Im not a new player to say the least and im affected by this stuff, I cant imagine someone new to game wanting to deal with it.
    Last edited by 01000010; 07-01-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  2. #2
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    There seems to be a disconnect between The GM helping a group complete a quest that becomes stuck and gathering information about the incident. We have seen several posts about GMs telling the player to submit a Bug Report when much of the details needed is already in the Help Ticket.

    While I've gotten good customer services from my GM encounters - Not always getting the resolution I'm after, but still friendly and as helpful as they can be, I have personally stopped trying to engage GMs in helping get a more permanent fix to something I see as a "Bug" or "Unintended Feature".

    Weather that approach is the right one or not, it prevents me from being frustrated. But it does give the appearance that GMs are limited to Scripted Solutions.

  3. #3
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    Default yeah

    I was just amazed that using ranged attacks making a quest incompletable would not be considered a bug, by anyone. I was just guessing that the ranged destruction of the crystal was related to the quest not completing, and thought it might help if I relayed it to admin that it was possibly connected.

    I would love to see the real known issue list that the admins have access to, because this is apparently on there but not on the official one afaik.

  4. #4
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post

    I say, "I ranged the crystal before engaging in endfight, I think that might be where the bug lies".

    He replies something like "Its not a bug, you cant range the crystals b4 going in the room".

    I reply something like "Um, but I did range the crystal b4 entering the room (not quite true, I had entered room, just hadn't come close enough to engage), so I assume its a bug when you can cause a quest to break just by using ranged attack?"

    EDIT: Admin didn't reply to my last question, just did the standard close ticket text.

    Why on Earth would you lie to the GMs about what you were doing when they can find out what you were doing or not doing??

    I would have closed the ticket too after finding out I was lied to.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  5. #5
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    Default lol

    gimme a break, I didn't lie to the gm, I realized after I typed it that I had slightly entered the room so I clarified.

    great example of the kind of thinking we have in this game, geez.

  6. #6
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    gimme a break, I didn't lie to the gm, I realized after I typed it that I had slightly entered the room so I clarified.

    great example of the kind of thinking we have in this game, geez.

    You said you had ranged the crystals before entering the room, then clarified that was not true.

    Good luck in your future tickets.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    I was just amazed that using ranged attacks making a quest incompletable would not be considered a bug, by anyone. [...]
    I believe the destruction of the crystals should trigger a chest spawn. Did the chest not spawn? When I did this solo I was almost either on a monk, FvS, or wizard of some sort. I never really had to snipe the crystals from afar. May be standing too far like on the ledge from entering the room didn't trigger the firing of the chest spawning script.

    If you can reproduce it, I would say file a bug...

    With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility

  8. #8
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    Default chest spawned

    chest spawned just didn't complete, yeah, its a bug and they know about it based on what the +admin said. Tho they may not classify it as a bug, which is more than a little perplexing to me.

    Hendirx, I said "I said something like", which makes it apparent it may not be an exact quote, the fact is the gm thought I had not entered the room yet I had.

    The clarification was for forum users to show the exact nature of the occurence.

    Lemme guess, I proved one of your buddies wrong recently so you feel the need to troll me? not the first, lol.

  9. #9
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    So game just "crashed" on me, by this I mean it became unresponsive, and I couldn't quit it, so I CTRL-ALT-DEL out to try to close the game, I nearly succeeded, but my mouse was somehow disabled by exiting ddo and in frustration I just did a soft reset.

    So that's why I have time to write this, because the group I was in has surely finished the quest by now, that I badly needed and at lvl 19 couldn't solo on E for bb.

    Anyhow, ranting and raving off and to the point.

    Before the crash id been soloing the quest mining for ancient secrets(on hard if it matters). Got to end, not too rough, character has good ranged damage so I range 1st control crystal, kill spawn up top, then head down to finish, kill rest, take out other crystal and nothing...

    Didn't complete, not sure why, but one of the control crystals didn't register as destroyed, with the recent similar bugs lately not too surprised, im cooking food so I figure ill open a ticket and maybe get lucky and have it resolved while im cooking and save some time not running again after.

    Admin replies maybe a minute later, fixes it, went well. He asks if theres anything else.

    I say, "I ranged the crystal before engaging in endfight, I think that might be where the bug lies".

    He replies something like "Its not a bug, you cant range the crystals b4 going in the room".

    I reply something like "Um, but I did range the crystal b4 entering the room (not quite true, I had entered room, just hadn't come close enough to engage), so I assume its a bug when you can cause a quest to break just by using ranged attack?"

    EDIT: Admin didn't reply to my last question, just did the standard close ticket text.

    So the question is, is this really not considered a bug that a quest can me made incompletable by using a ranged weapon? Theres an odd trend in ddo where the players are blamed for problems in ddo, wether its just playing a quest in a normal way that renders it incompletable, for example this quest with ranged, snitch(tho ive not yet figured out what im doing to bug crateos), the login issues on computers that run everything else just fine(it may be related to system setup somehow, but who knows? and should that matter? seems very similar to the you should know better than to range a crystal attitude to me).

    Im not a new player to say the least and im affected by this stuff, I cant imagine someone new to game wanting to deal with it.
    I think the dead giveaway here - as to whether it is a bug or not - is of the GM says you can't do what you just did. That's a bug.

    Of course, this assumes the GM knows what they are talking about in the first place, but that's a minor detail...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I think the dead giveaway here - as to whether it is a bug or not - is of the GM says you can't do what you just did. That's a bug.

    Of course, this assumes the GM knows what they are talking about in the first place, but that's a minor detail...
    I THINK by "cant" what he meant was that its a known issue(to admins) that you cant range the thing without engaging the endifght or itll make quest imcompletable. That's what it seemed like he was saying in the context, at least that's how I perceived it. Which is why I reiterated that it was in fact a bug since you easily can range it causing non completion and theres no reason anyone would think not to.

    If he meant that it was impossible, well, he was wrong, lol.

  11. #11
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01000010 View Post
    I THINK by "cant" what he meant was that its a known issue(to admins) that you cant range the thing without engaging the endifght or itll make quest imcompletable. That's what it seemed like he was saying in the context, at least that's how I perceived it. Which is why I reiterated that it was in fact a bug since you easily can range it causing non completion and theres no reason anyone would think not to.

    If he meant that it was impossible, well, he was wrong, lol.
    Well, either way, if it can be ranged, and shouldn't because it will create a non-completion, then it is a bug.

    I see what you're saying, but if you can find a path to break something, then that path shows you how to get to a bug. If you range the crystal at any time, it should engage the end-fight. Otherwise, you shouldn't be able to target / range / damage the crystal at all until you enter the room.

    Really, in this case, you can only real define this bug by looking at the outcome. It is a sequence of events that must occur before the completion is triggered. What is happening is that you are doing the sequence, though not as anticipated, and found a hole in their logic. Most applications try to make things bulletproof, and resolving any and all conditions that nead to the next action in a sequence. When all ends are not coded with a resolution of some sort, it leaves a hole in the logic: a bug.

    And if they claim it is not a bug...well...then they need to put down the crack pipe...

  12. #12
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    Default yup

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Well, either way, if it can be ranged, and shouldn't because it will create a non-completion, then it is a bug.

    I see what you're saying, but if you can find a path to break something, then that path shows you how to get to a bug. If you range the crystal at any time, it should engage the end-fight. Otherwise, you shouldn't be able to target / range / damage the crystal at all until you enter the room.

    Really, in this case, you can only real define this bug by looking at the outcome. It is a sequence of events that must occur before the completion is triggered. What is happening is that you are doing the sequence, though not as anticipated, and found a hole in their logic. Most applications try to make things bulletproof, and resolving any and all conditions that nead to the next action in a sequence. When all ends are not coded with a resolution of some sort, it leaves a hole in the logic: a bug.

    And if they claim it is not a bug...well...then they need to put down the crack pipe...
    Pretty much summarizes my view on it, I was kind of annoyed that he seemed to imply its not a bug.

  13. #13
    Community Member Daine's Avatar
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    GM's =/= Dev's

    I for one am glad this GM didn't waste their time in a discussion of the nature of bugs. Instead he responded rapidly (one minute) to your request, quickly solved it, then concisely answered a question. IMHO that is superb service, we could all be so lucky to get this particular GM to assist us!

    I see the GM's as overworked first aiders, they can strap a bandage on and direct you to the hospital, but that's it. Asking them to do more is both beyond their scope and unfair to the hundred's of others that they actually can help.

  14. #14
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    Default it went well

    Quote Originally Posted by Daine View Post
    GM's =/= Dev's

    I for one am glad this GM didn't waste their time in a discussion of the nature of bugs. Instead he responded rapidly (one minute) to your request, quickly solved it, then concisely answered a question. IMHO that is superb service, we could all be so lucky to get this particular GM to assist us!

    I see the GM's as overworked first aiders, they can strap a bandage on and direct you to the hospital, but that's it. Asking them to do more is both beyond their scope and unfair to the hundred's of others that they actually can help.
    I said it went well, issue was resolved more or less, got completion, but the fact the +admin felt the need to seemingly correct me that this wasn't a bug but a result of me not running the quest as intended is why I wrote this post, it really caught me off guard and I personally think it gives some insight to why the players and turbine don't see eye to eye on so many things. Does it actually say in the +admins knowledge base that this isn't a bug? that's scary.

    I could've taken him wrong, maybe he was saying that its impossible to range the crystal, but if that's the case he was incorrect because that's what I did.

    Im not really even upset about this one, but I find it enlightening.

  15. #15
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    I've had this happen to me also, this is a bug any way you cut it. You're lucky to get a GM to help you. The last ticket I sent was promptly closed with no explanation.
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  16. #16
    Uber Completionist luvirini's Avatar
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    Yes, it is a bug. Has always been bugged, nothing new about it.

    You need to wait for the quest objective "destroy the crystals" to appear before you destroy them or it will not register their destruction.

    So I tend to just take them down to about 20-25% before entering the room to get the objective to show up and then destroy them.

  17. #17

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    again. Game masters, or +admins are not Devs or QA folk. they fix things for players that experience a bug.

    The fact that he helped you is a pretty good indication that it was indeed a bug. If it was working as intended... why would he of completed the quest. If the quest was still able tobe completed, he would of sent you on your way.

    If you experience a bug. You should report it to the bug department. not argue with a GM about it. He did his job.
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  18. #18
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    Default huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    again. Game masters, or +admins are not Devs or QA folk. they fix things for players that experience a bug.

    The fact that he helped you is a pretty good indication that it was indeed a bug. If it was working as intended... why would he of completed the quest. If the quest was still able tobe completed, he would of sent you on your way.

    If you experience a bug. You should report it to the bug department. not argue with a GM about it. He did his job.

    Of course its a bug, but we didnt argue really, he claimed it was not a bug and i questioned the logic, wether it was his logic or specifically specified as not being a bug in his script.

    Is it his job to tell me a quest being incompletable is not a bug? I doubt it, but im actually glad he did, because the distinction does matter if it is EVER going to be fixed.

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