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  1. #1
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Default Make Great Crossbows Viable

    I've tried to figure out a way to make a great crossbow actually usable but i can't do it.

    I read now on the wiki that the deepwood sniper shot works on all 3 of the shots from a repeating crossbow. That would have been probably the only thing that might have given advantage to a great crossbow, due to it's higher threat range. Now, there's nothing. Sure, the Great crossbow is a 2d8 weapon. A greensteel one would even be 3d8. Since a repeater fires 3 shots though, it's essentially the same thing, and anything that increased damage on a crossbow basically gives 3 times the improvement to a repeater as to a great.

    So i suggest changing the multiplier from x2 to x3. Make it a critical hitting monster. Especially when used in conjunction with the sniper shot.

    Maybe make, i don't know, one named great crossbow in the game? That one from Korthos doesn't count.

    I'm sure almost nobody actually cares about great crossbows, but i think it would be nice to make them viable at least for a flavor type build.

  2. #2
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I've tried to figure out a way to make a great crossbow actually usable but i can't do it.

    I read now on the wiki that the deepwood sniper shot works on all 3 of the shots from a repeating crossbow. That would have been probably the only thing that might have given advantage to a great crossbow, due to it's higher threat range. Now, there's nothing. Sure, the Great crossbow is a 2d8 weapon. A greensteel one would even be 3d8. Since a repeater fires 3 shots though, it's essentially the same thing, and anything that increased damage on a crossbow basically gives 3 times the improvement to a repeater as to a great.

    So i suggest changing the multiplier from x2 to x3. Make it a critical hitting monster. Especially when used in conjunction with the sniper shot.

    Maybe make, i don't know, one named great crossbow in the game? That one from Korthos doesn't count.

    I'm sure almost nobody actually cares about great crossbows, but i think it would be nice to make them viable at least for a flavor type build.
    I think if they fix the knockdown chance with it and increase the diestep that would be viable. That said I'll use them still as a swap for ef. I think you get more dps with ef and a greatxbow than a repeater.

  3. #3
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I think if they fix the knockdown chance with it and increase the diestep that would be viable. That said I'll use them still as a swap for ef. I think you get more dps with ef and a greatxbow than a repeater.
    Maybe make the knockdown occur on any crit? That would make it pretty darn cool, especially since i don't think the knockdown has a save. Might be too overpowered, since it has the crit range of a rapier. Maybe 19-20.

    I still like the x3 multiplier idea. I don't think it would make it overpowering. Just viable. It should pack a whallop. It's a hand held ballista for gosh sakes.

    It probably would work well with endless fusilade. Maybe a x3 multiplier would make it overpowered in that instance. I don't know. Probably not more overpowered than manyshot.

  4. #4
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    Default I'm not asking for much

    As long as they would make it reload on its own and not working you to actually click it, I would be happy. It is a pain to start a fight and first thing your character does is reload. Or you wanted to make sure you were ready to shoot, so you give it a click, it was loaded, the nyou need to reload it and then you're finally ready but fight started.

    The greatest pain of all though is the SNIPER SHOT becoming something like SNIPER RELOAD... You click sniper shot, for whatever lag reason it doesn'.t go out on the shot, but on the "reload" round... so wasted and need to wait for timer to use sniper shot again.


    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I've tried to figure out a way to make a great crossbow actually usable but i can't do it.

    I read now on the wiki that the deepwood sniper shot works on all 3 of the shots from a repeating crossbow. That would have been probably the only thing that might have given advantage to a great crossbow, due to it's higher threat range. Now, there's nothing. Sure, the Great crossbow is a 2d8 weapon. A greensteel one would even be 3d8. Since a repeater fires 3 shots though, it's essentially the same thing, and anything that increased damage on a crossbow basically gives 3 times the improvement to a repeater as to a great.

    So i suggest changing the multiplier from x2 to x3. Make it a critical hitting monster. Especially when used in conjunction with the sniper shot.

    Maybe make, i don't know, one named great crossbow in the game? That one from Korthos doesn't count.

    I'm sure almost nobody actually cares about great crossbows, but i think it would be nice to make them viable at least for a flavor type build.

  5. #5
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    Its a passable idea to make GCs viable. I'd say that upping the base die to 3d8 too, you cant fairly compare a Greensteel GC to a regular RXB.

    That being said, 18-20/x3 might become a little OVERpowered once the Enhancement Pass hits Live. Deepwood Stalker, as it stood in the preview, was going to be a LOT better for xbow users, since Sniper Shot was getting +2[w], +2 crit threat, +2 crit range, and its shaving its cooldown from 10 seconds to 6, making it reeeeeally viable for non-arcane (ie crossbow) archers.

    It's going to turn heavy RXBs into 3[1d10], 15-20/x4 with IC:Ranged, and GCs into 3[2d8], 13-20/x4 with IC:Ranged. Actually, I take it back, the RXBs would still blow GCs out of the water even if they were /x3 base, since it fires 3 of those awesome shots. Every six seconds, so like every third or fourth salvo....hot damn, my arti cant wait for the EP

    That being said, DS is getting a couple other clickies and AA is getting some clickies that may or may not work with Xbows as well. The slower ROF issue with GCs may not be as important, if you can spam clicky skills like you do for melee combat skills like Cleave/GC.

  6. #6
    Community Member Stoner81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Sniper Shot was getting +2[w], +2 crit threat, +2 crit range, and its shaving its cooldown from 10 seconds to 6, making it reeeeeally viable for non-arcane (ie crossbow) archers.

    It's going to turn heavy RXBs into 3[1d10], 15-20/x4 with IC:Ranged, and GCs into 3[2d8], 13-20/x4 with IC:Ranged. Actually, I take it back, the RXBs would still blow GCs out of the water even if they were /x3 base, since it fires 3 of those awesome shots. Every six seconds, so like every third or fourth salvo....hot damn, my arti cant wait for the EP
    Combine that with Deadly Weapons too (assuming they would stack) and Arti's are going to be insane for DPS and burst DPS!

    Stoner81.

  7. #7
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    The solution is simple, X3 crit multiplier and make it a martial weapon... Then a lot of melee's will use it as their ranged option instead of throwers... it still wont be a main weapon choice for anyone who can use repeaters or bows, because it doesn't get X3 affix procs/damage of repeaters and no bow strength. Bows of course have multiple named options with 19-20X3 (so 17-20 with IC:ranged) and even one easy to get named bow with 19-20X4 that also has 17-18X3 with imrproved crit. Of course the X3 and X4 on that bow multiply your bow strength and totally blow away a great xbow.

    Sorry never mind adding X3 to greater Xbow AND getting rid of the exotic feat doesn't even make it viable...

    I think it needs to be made "Simple weapon" and then Wiz's and Clerics might conceivably use it as a main weapon... except it would need to be a GCB that has a lot of red augments like Mountains fist... so they can slot their spell power... oh but Mountains fist is a one handed weapon with THREE slots...

    So a GCB would need 6 red slots to compete with Mountains fist...

    *Sigh* tragically even making the GCB SIMPLE weapon prof, and X3 crit would not make it an optimal main weapon choice for any class. That's how far behind it is!

  8. #8
    Community Member little_me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I've tried to figure out a way to make a great crossbow actually usable but i can't do it.

    I read now on the wiki that the deepwood sniper shot works on all 3 of the shots from a repeating crossbow. That would have been probably the only thing that might have given advantage to a great crossbow, due to it's higher threat range. Now, there's nothing. Sure, the Great crossbow is a 2d8 weapon. A greensteel one would even be 3d8. Since a repeater fires 3 shots though, it's essentially the same thing, and anything that increased damage on a crossbow basically gives 3 times the improvement to a repeater as to a great.
    and.. you fail Crossbows 101.

    Reason:

    Repeaters shoot 3 bolts at once, yes but let us assume that single "attack" on repeater is 3 bolts.
    crossbows have WAY higher attacks/minute than repeaters.

    so your 3 to 1 ratio is absurdly flawed. it's close to 2:1 if you count bolts shot/minute. (which is what you should take into account if you compare anything besides first attack)

    I wont claim that Great crossbows would be usable (besides as few shots here or there maybe but feat required for that? eww) due to inherent flaws in ranged dps compared to anything else.
    Amazing, they actually managed to fix forum account post count and stuff without me bug reporting it!
    O.o there is hope out there yet!

  9. #9
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Having an Arty I can go through my stack of 100 bolts on the heavy repeater somewhere around twice as fast as I can on the heavy crossbow. Thus if I have an effect on the weapon (say fire arrow or deadly weapons) I get far more bang for the buck on that.

    This is just me sitting there plinking away at the training dummy by the way. Once I gained rapid reload and rapid shot they also seemed to add a slightly greater advantage on the heavy repeater vs. the heavy crossbow.

    In my opinion if you added a DC based knockdown chance on any hit with auto knockdown on a crit that could go a LONG way towards making the Great crossbow viable as it becomes good CC especially with Improved Precise Shot.

    I also think that making it a simple (or at least martial) weapon would go a long way. If I have to spend an exotic weapons feat why wouldn't I pick the Repeater, honestly.

    From a pure DPS point through the repeater is always going to out perform a non-repeater as they are currently designed.


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by little_me View Post
    and.. you fail Crossbows 101.

    Reason:

    Repeaters shoot 3 bolts at once, yes but let us assume that single "attack" on repeater is 3 bolts.
    crossbows have WAY higher attacks/minute than repeaters.

    so your 3 to 1 ratio is absurdly flawed. it's close to 2:1 if you count bolts shot/minute. (which is what you should take into account if you compare anything besides first attack)

    I wont claim that Great crossbows would be usable (besides as few shots here or there maybe but feat required for that? eww) due to inherent flaws in ranged dps compared to anything else.
    Are you sure? The reload animation is the same for both afaik, so its only the firing animation that's slightly longer for Repeaters. So maybe like 2.7:1 instead of 3:1, but I dont think it takes a full third of the firing cycle for those extra 2 bolts. Also, are you talking about auto attack, or manual attack where you get a noticeable speed bonus?

    Just think of Endless Fusillade with either - that just removes the reload animation - and you're pretty close to "pinkpinkpink....pinkpinkpink...." at the same rate you "pink....pink....". If it was that much of a disparity, then GC would definitely be what Juggies would want to use, since they mainly just use their XBs for EF.

  11. #11
    Community Member little_me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Are you sure? The reload animation is the same for both afaik, so its only the firing animation that's slightly longer for Repeaters. So maybe like 2.7:1 instead of 3:1, but I dont think it takes a full third of the firing cycle for those extra 2 bolts. Also, are you talking about auto attack, or manual attack where you get a noticeable speed bonus?
    Well, i went ingame to test it.
    I can talk about both. effect is same in both cases.
    If we assume person has needed proficiences and is appropriate level/class of X/Y (or not, doesn't really affect AA vs MA speed difference, it's percentage based as are attack speed differences between RCB and CB)

    Repeating crossbow:
    AA 108 bolts spent in 60 seconds. equals 36 "attacks"
    MA 123 bolts spent in 60 seconds. equals 41 "attacks" (13.2% more)
    crossbow:
    AA 53 bolts spent in 60 seconds. equals 53 "attacks" (which is 1:1.47 but... rounding happens so 1.5 is close enough)
    MA 60 bolts spent in 60 seconds. equals 60 "attacks" (which is still pretty close to 1:1.5 compared to repeaters)

    so.. crossbow gets 50% more attacks in a minute than repeater.
    and no, i've not made auto macroes to click as fast as could be to "optimize" the maximum attacks/minute that game allows so.. i might have misclicked once or twice somewhere.

    and no, above test was not done on GCB due to... me refusing to play since they refuse to fix AA vs MA speed difference. and account being "full" and not having space for extra test character for GCB.
    i'm 100% certain GCB *had* more attacks/minute than repeater though.
    Amazing, they actually managed to fix forum account post count and stuff without me bug reporting it!
    O.o there is hope out there yet!

  12. #12
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keldarfin View Post
    As long as they would make it reload on its own and not working you to actually click it, I would be happy. It is a pain to start a fight and first thing your character does is reload. Or you wanted to make sure you were ready to shoot, so you give it a click, it was loaded, the nyou need to reload it and then you're finally ready but fight started.
    That is an issue that effects all forms of crossbows, and I can understand why it was put in as annoying as it was.

    I would like them to put in code such that if you haven't shot/cast a spell/combat maneuver, skill, etc. in 5 seconds, it would auto reload for you. I figure 5 seconds is long enough for that. Even better would be a slider of 0 (instant auto reload) up to 10 seconds wait.

  13. #13
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by little_me View Post
    Well, i went ingame to test it.
    I can talk about both. effect is same in both cases.
    If we assume person has needed proficiences and is appropriate level/class of X/Y (or not, doesn't really affect AA vs MA speed difference, it's percentage based as are attack speed differences between RCB and CB)

    Repeating crossbow:
    AA 108 bolts spent in 60 seconds. equals 36 "attacks"
    MA 123 bolts spent in 60 seconds. equals 41 "attacks" (13.2% more)
    crossbow:
    AA 53 bolts spent in 60 seconds. equals 53 "attacks" (which is 1:1.47 but... rounding happens so 1.5 is close enough)
    MA 60 bolts spent in 60 seconds. equals 60 "attacks" (which is still pretty close to 1:1.5 compared to repeaters)

    so.. crossbow gets 50% more attacks in a minute than repeater.
    and no, i've not made auto macroes to click as fast as could be to "optimize" the maximum attacks/minute that game allows so.. i might have misclicked once or twice somewhere.

    and no, above test was not done on GCB due to... me refusing to play since they refuse to fix AA vs MA speed difference. and account being "full" and not having space for extra test character for GCB.
    i'm 100% certain GCB *had* more attacks/minute than repeater though.
    I thought I'd read the entire thread, in my world AA means arcane archer, did they change it so you can conjure bolts now? Or as I suspect you mean AA differently? Help me out with "MA" too (mechanic arti?).

  14. #14
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I thought I'd read the entire thread, in my world AA means arcane archer, did they change it so you can conjure bolts now? Or as I suspect you mean AA differently? Help me out with "MA" too (mechanic arti?).
    In this instance...

    AA : Automatic Attack
    MA : Manual Attack.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    In this instance...

    AA : Automatic Attack
    MA : Manual Attack.
    OK slightly embarrassed to ask this as I went through two arti lives and a mechanic rogue life.

    So manual attack fires quicker? How does that work, I assume its not just holding down the mouse button which is how I always played rxb. Or is holding down the mouse button manual attack and auto attack is the icon you switch on from your feats menu?

  16. #16
    Community Member little_me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LupusVai View Post
    So manual attack fires quicker? How does that work, I assume its not just holding down the mouse button which is how I always played rxb. Or is holding down the mouse button manual attack and auto attack is the icon you switch on from your feats menu?
    auto attack as i refer to it is holding attack button down.

    it consists of following in animation:
    shoot
    reload
    pause (why it's there, don't ask me in my examples case the pause lasts about 0.2 seconds)

    to avoid that pause after EACH reload, you need to hold button pressed long enough that reload animation starts. after that, release it and click again as soon as it's done.
    giving you that 13.2% or so boost on attack speed that stacks with anything and everything. feats, effects and all.
    Amazing, they actually managed to fix forum account post count and stuff without me bug reporting it!
    O.o there is hope out there yet!

  17. #17
    Community Member TheNameIwasntB4's Avatar
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    Default my favored soul uses a great crossbow

    Only because I pulled a nice one and I decided to make my shiny new FVS, back when they came out, use a great crossbow. I have rarely ever used it, but I send all crossbow bolts to him and the heavy repeater using bard that I made in 2008.

    Possibly the greatest challenge in the game is finding cool heavy repeaters and cool great crossbows.

    I remember some other joker made a halfling that uses great crossbows just because of the size difference.
    April 2013 - Manager Meeting - New Forums, WOW!! We just had over 90% new players join!!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by little_me View Post
    to avoid that pause after EACH reload, you need to hold button pressed long enough that reload animation starts. after that, release it and click again as soon as it's done.
    giving you that 13.2% or so boost on attack speed that stacks with anything and everything. feats, effects and all.
    I was under the impression the faster manual speed was so that Artis couldnt just put their RXB on autoattack at full speed while they cast spells and fired off their RA. You get a bonus for manually controlling your ROF, which de facto means you cant manage your RA/spells as much.

    Or, conversely, its for Mechanic rogues, who dont have RA and spells, so they can "do something" besides just sit and plink on AA...again, a bonus for being more "hands on" with your fighting.

    Plus, it doesnt stack with Endless Fusillade, since that removes the animation in question entirely

  19. #19
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post
    I've tried to figure out a way to make a great crossbow actually usable but i can't do it.

    I'm sure almost nobody actually cares about great crossbows, but i think it would be nice to make them viable at least for a flavor type build.
    Have not already read all the answers, but because it is a subject close to my heart.... THEY ALREADY ARE VIABLE!
    Just because they are not as good as repeaters... they are still viable.

    And they knock things over.
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  20. #20
    Community Member remember1's Avatar
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    changing the multiplier to x3 seems unbalanced

    may be knock down the enemy on a critical instead of a natural 20

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