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  1. #1
    Community Member Yehediah's Avatar
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    Default Sublte Spellcasting Broke Long Ago

    Back many years ago, subtle spellcasting was a wonderful enhancement. I'm guessing no one still uses this as it was brok ages ago...

    Don't get seen first, don't attack first, invest in this, and as a Wiz you could survive on far less HP than today (putting abilities, enhancements, and gear into OTHER more firepower-friendly stuff). Then, after a short pause, you could unleash **** on the enemy. Not any more...

    Long ago, the powers that be decided mobs need to go after the wiz first (ignoring the fighter that just hit them twice and was seen long before the wizard who's yet to hit them). And, now with that, what does subtle spellcasting do - well, nothing it seems. Totally useless. Why not remove the dang enhancement or put a warning on it - Turbine hates wizards so we made this useless but keep it in the game so you waste enhancements in it.

    And, dangit, if you are going to do **** like that (i.e., make something useless), do the courtesy of allow allowing a free lesser re-incarnation so players can fix it. Ok, rant off - at least this part was done 1x in the history of nerfs... maybe it should be standard policy though...
    Yehediah (Dwarf Cleric), Zeddek (Human Favored Soul)
    Mezros (Drow Bard), Fieris (Drow Wizard)
    Freibo (Halfling Rogue)

  2. #2
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    Default

    And I thought Subtle Spell Casting was broke more around one of these times...

    Change to non-damaging AoE Agro - Going from the Mob not knowing who cast the Cloud Spell to - Bee Line death to the caster who is around the corner and not visible when I came into this room with a cloud in it.

    And

    When Spell Point Damage Burst were 3x to 4x what a melee could put out (Even 40% less hate still left a fair chunk on the table)

    I find that Bluff and Diplomacy are still good ways to shed some agro (Especially fun when you stand next to that cleric that has been ranting about how they don't heal PMs or WF on general principle)

  3. #3
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    If I remember correctly I didnt see Subtle Spellcasting in the sorc or wiz trees when the enhancement pass was previewed.

  4. #4
    Community Member Yehediah's Avatar
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    Default Still There

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoiii View Post
    If I remember correctly I didnt see Subtle Spellcasting in the sorc or wiz trees when the enhancement pass was previewed.
    Nope, still on the list of ones you can choose - my caster still has it (from ages ago) and it has no "no longer works" message on it. And, it's still on the Wiki.
    Yehediah (Dwarf Cleric), Zeddek (Human Favored Soul)
    Mezros (Drow Bard), Fieris (Drow Wizard)
    Freibo (Halfling Rogue)

  5. #5
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    Why would you need a free LR? Did you take wizard solely to build a character around Subtle Spellcasting? Its an enhancement, you can reset it for a pittance of plat and 3 days' wait

  6. #6
    Community Member hermespan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehediah View Post

    And, dangit, if you are going to do **** like that (i.e., make something useless), do the courtesy of allow allowing a free lesser re-incarnation so players can fix it. Ok, rant off - at least this part was done 1x in the history of nerfs... maybe it should be standard policy though...
    You don't need a reincarnate to fix your enhancements you can do it for a negligible cost every 3 days at a trainer.

  7. #7
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    AI to APPEAR to be the slightest bit intelligent has to have some degree of cheating built into it. It get's "fuzzy" line of sight, it also gets "fuzzy" pathing (often seen as the ability to pop around obstacles, walk up shear cliff faces or jump over amazingly tall things to get to you)... fuzzy LOS is harder to witness as a player, until you get aggro around a corner. Another example of fuzzy cheating AI is when a Lich or other "smart" mob gets out of the way of an incoming AOE spell... that is literally the AI routine being "told" that the player cast an AOE and please move the Lich X distance away. Also why Dungeon Alert works the way it does (as opposed to organizing real ambushes and blocking at the next logical doorway).

    Here of course there's a "AI cheat" which really isn't a bad one; of simulating the AI "recognizing" the guy in the pointy hat and robes as a caster. The thing you're complaining about is the AI is simulating what any good D&D player knows: kill the casters first, interrupt their spell casting (which obviously doesn't work for players in DDO, but does work for mobs).

    Unfortunately AI is actually a misnomer, there's no artificial thinking going on, just routines and repetitive loops that when coders have gotten lucky with complex interactions of the loops can give an illusion of "smart AI" often this illusion is a happy accident someone found long ago, and gets copied from then on by new game developers. In fact the "fly" routines that were among the very first attempts to make a "behavior" 40 years ago, are still a foundational pattern in many game AI's or still inherently a part of the more complex variations on it.

    Also often games that manage to have good seeming AI use something called scripting, which is a much slower less optimized way (because: higher level coding language) to create somewhat more believable conditional "behavior" (patterns really not behavior at all but the patterns are more responsive to what the player does, so they can appear more like real behavior). Unfortunately scripted AI uses bandwidth and client server resources far more than old highly optimal hard coded AI; and is thus a serious no no in MMO's. So unfortunately "cheating" AI is 100% required to lend any illusion of thinking to the games mobs. Basically Doom's AI? Yeah that with a few hundred twists is what MMO's have.

    Some things non scripted AI can not (EVER) do (that are required before they can stop "cheating"):

    Anticipate where you are running to (this is why they never head you off at the pass before you get to the doorway or cast a spell where you're GOING TO BE, as opposed to where YOU WERE.
    Figure out a complex pathway that allowed you to "perch" safely and beat you down off of it (this is why they often walk straight up a cliff to get to you)
    Figure out that the Mind fog you just cast is going to be followed by a will save CC or instant death spell, and so get out of the fog and dispell the debuff before they get danced or dead.
    In fact almost anything else you might expect even a dumb person to think of
    Actually never mind "almost" make that ABSOLUTELY anything.

    Now the "on topic" question is: does the reduced threat work aside from the "cheating" AI, and how much of it is required before you see mobs not aggroing onto you in the middle of the fight? Most things in DDO need a "max effort" level of gearing/building to be effective... Passing skill checks usually requires a full build investment AND a skill boosting item AND a high ability score for that skill, and often a little exceptional skill or special bonus to make it reliable. I suspect getting your "reduced threat" percentage to the point where it is obvious to you in every fight that you are benefiting from it; ignoring the initial AI "cheat and jump the caster" would require full investment, AND using as much stacking -threat gear as you can put on.

  8. #8
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Fortunately, I was warned about Subtle Spellcasting not working before I got too far along in my Sorc's enhancements. I payed the plat and chose new enhancements accordingly.
    There is no free lunch.

  9. #9
    Community Member Yehediah's Avatar
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    Default Overliteral Reactions

    I just love overliteral reactions - I can see why there are so many communication problems when people pay more attention to 1-2 words instead of the whole point. (And, those 1-2 words have a meaning in context based on the whole.)

    Ok, to change enhancements, yes, you can use pp. As far as "pittance" of pp - it's more of the principle. If Turbine is going to "nerf" an enhancement, then a free one ought to be allowed - that's just plain common courtesy as a general principle. And, the whole point was the principle - IF they are going to make changes like this, there ought to be a free "lesser reincarnate." This one might be fixable with just the enhancements - many in the past have not been...
    Yehediah (Dwarf Cleric), Zeddek (Human Favored Soul)
    Mezros (Drow Bard), Fieris (Drow Wizard)
    Freibo (Halfling Rogue)

  10. #10
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehediah View Post
    I'm guessing no one still uses this as it was brok ages ago...
    I never considered using it because quite frankly I want to hold aggro as a spellcaster. Far easier to kill something when it is not being kited around by someone else.
    Ryiah | Raeyah | Reikara
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  11. #11
    Community Member Yehediah's Avatar
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    Default About Options

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryiah View Post
    I never considered using it because quite frankly I want to hold aggro as a spellcaster. Far easier to kill something when it is not being kited around by someone else.
    Originally, PnP DnD was about options. DDO started with that. There was no "one right way" to play a caster (with variety for wizards and sorcerers).

    You could be an aggro spellcaster. Or you could be one that pretended to be less threatening and dealt death from "cover" so to speak.

    Not any more. DDO has long been going the way of ONLY 1 "right" way to play a caster. If one is going to "only" allow aggro casting by royally nerfing anyone trying to use the enhancement, then don't even give the enhancement.
    Yehediah (Dwarf Cleric), Zeddek (Human Favored Soul)
    Mezros (Drow Bard), Fieris (Drow Wizard)
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  12. #12
    Community Member Moonsickle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehediah View Post
    I just love overliteral reactions - I can see why there are so many communication problems when people pay more attention to 1-2 words instead of the whole point. (And, those 1-2 words have a meaning in context based on the whole.)

    Ok, to change enhancements, yes, you can use pp. As far as "pittance" of pp - it's more of the principle. If Turbine is going to "nerf" an enhancement, then a free one ought to be allowed - that's just plain common courtesy as a general principle. And, the whole point was the principle - IF they are going to make changes like this, there ought to be a free "lesser reincarnate." This one might be fixable with just the enhancements - many in the past have not been...


    Be careful what you wish for here, you remember the last bugged... I mean... "free" reincarnation they offered.
    You know I had been using the Superior Sarcasm font exclusively but it seems in a unannounced hotfix they slipped in the Sovereign Sarcasm font... keep up the good work guys!

  13. #13
    Community Member Yehediah's Avatar
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    Default Great...

    Let's see, monsters now go after casters first because they are all super-intelligent (even animals) and know that robed guy that hasn't yet cast a spell and is way in the back behind all the other guys is a mean dangerous caster. And, so, the lesser aggro stuff doesn't do much for a caster anymore because they are going to get hit first (and several times) before that tank can peel the mob off you - and likely you aren't still alive by then - well, unless you have the power to insta-kill the attacker...

    And what does the game do after obsoleting the lesser aggro enhancements for casters? They redo the enhancements and make them required stuff to unlock better stuff - even though it's been demonstrated that they made it a useless enhancement ages ago... figures...
    Yehediah (Dwarf Cleric), Zeddek (Human Favored Soul)
    Mezros (Drow Bard), Fieris (Drow Wizard)
    Freibo (Halfling Rogue)

  14. #14
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermespan View Post
    You don't need a reincarnate to fix your enhancements you can do it for a negligible cost every 3 days at a trainer.
    Actually you can do it anytime you want and dont have to even go to the trainer.

  15. #15
    Community Member Yehediah's Avatar
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    Default Right...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Milic View Post
    Actually you can do it anytime you want and dont have to even go to the trainer.
    If they made it obsolete, they should have put something else there instead.

    And, to the best of my recollection* it was required for a few classes to get something above it that was ok. So, they forced you to get something they made totally worthless...

    * Best of my recollection - I had 10 characters to fix enhancements on - I didn't take it by "choice" because they totally nerfed it. If they'd return it to being useful, then I'd happily want it again...
    Yehediah (Dwarf Cleric), Zeddek (Human Favored Soul)
    Mezros (Drow Bard), Fieris (Drow Wizard)
    Freibo (Halfling Rogue)

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