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  1. #41
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Keep telling yourself that.

    I'm guessing you're a "trinity" player, who expects divines to take care of your melees' red bars. For self-healing melees, the enhancement pass is a massive nerf. Not a "perceived" nerf, and actual, hardcore nerf by either a) not having any devotion at all (rangers) or b) putting all devotion in only a single tree (paladins), meaning that you all of a sudden have to spend every single point in that one tree to match your existing devotion on live. Three guesses how they implement ranger devotion. (Hint: Like paladins, it will only be in a single tree. I'll bet Arcane Archer, or possibly Deepwood Stalker, and tempests can just go pound sand.)

    Heal skill? Don't they both get that? If they implement Devotion into a tree and it grants 60spell power max, add in what you can get with the heal skill (max it out, so 28base with a +15 item is 43 not counting wis modifier, potentially another 5 for 48) and you go from the spellpower we have now of 65 to 108. This is a buff. If spellcraft can effect it as well, then it's possible to raise this from between another 28 to 48, give or take. That's between 136 and 156, more than DOUBLE what we have now. Again, this is a buff. Don't like that you have to spend points into INT to make them more effective? It balances out, you give up 2 points of str to go from 8 int to 14, or 2 points of CON for the same bonus at a loss of 25hp.


    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    This bespeaks a fundamental misunderstanding of the differences of the two systems. On live, you typically have to spend a half dozen or so points on arbitrary prereqs you don't want. On alpha, we're talkiing upwards of 20 points (or more) on c rap you don't want or need. Consider the human improved recovery line. If you want the full line and nothing else in the human tree, how many points are you literally throwing away just for that? 20?
    I think it was Maj, but it was specifically stated that all the costs were intentionally set high so they could gauge what would be a more realistic and accepted costs. This is of course forgotten, as people want everything to cost 1ap or less.


    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    My rogue-splashed melee very much enjoy taking rogue haste boost 1 and sneak attack training. Guess those don't matter, right? DPS isn't needed in the game, after all. My wizard rogue doesn't spend a single point in the rogue tree, though, so on that you have a fair point.
    And now you can get the entire Haste boost enhancement from that splash. This is a buff. Limiting it to 3 trees is a design problem with the 3 tier system, however this could be relatively fixed by getting rid of a few of the arrows. Unless you have an 8/6/6 Elf Fighter Rogue Ranger and want take Tempest, Kensai, Acrobat, Assassin, Arcane Archer, and Deepwood Sniper to which then this would be perceived as a nerf. Of course, expecting to be able to do this is ignorant and is usually spewed by Forumites.

    One major problem I've found for a large, LARGE majority of all people complaining about how Clerics and FVS are getting nerfed is the supposed Nerf to offensive casting. The loss of the Deadly enhancements is huge, I will admit this. But NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING changes how much Blade Barrier hits for, how much damage Cometfall does, all the light spell are now based off the Spellcraft skill (which we already proved we can get over 48 without much effort, and now GH boosts your damage), Command loses 2 spell-pen which might be added back in, and you lose a decent chunk of sp. The loss of Spell Points is the only thing in the Enhancement pass I have a problem with.

    Right now, the Cleric Prestige is all about healing. Everything you take for it is for healing, all it gives is bonuses to healing, it gives SLA style heals (Radiant Burst and Positive Energy Aura) based off your turns, etc. It has 0 offensive ability besides the ever so slight bonus to caster level for light spells, but you were already maxed on that since they all cap out at lvl 15 or 20 anyway.


    The Enhancement pass grants some lovely abilities to Favoured Souls, but yes they do get shafted on that 40 spellpower from the tier 1 prestige. Again, this is covered by Spellcraft, which I wouldn't doubt I can get that over 80, even on a max Wis based Evoker soul which again ends up being 40 higher than the bonus we have now. The Light damage ends up being equal if I can get it to that level, and then we just need to figure out how the crit multipliers and range works. It was stated that every caster would be given a base 5% crit chance, and then they would modify everything off of that.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmanis View Post
    If they implement Devotion into a tree and it grants 60spell power max
    So my knight of the chalice gets to spend 60 points in the defender of siberys tree plus 2 more points in int just to get the same devotion he has now and you consider that a buff?

    Same deal for my tempest ranger spending 60 points in the AA or DS tree to get his devotion, plus of course the extra 2 build points in int.

    It amazes me that you don't see how this is clearly a nerf to self-healing melee. Again, to be sure you understand: It requires spending SIXTY (60) points in a tree I don't want.


    I think it was Maj, but it was specifically stated that all the costs were intentionally set high so they could gauge what would be a more realistic and accepted costs. This is of course forgotten, as people want everything to cost 1ap or less.
    You're not getting the point. It's irrelevant how much the individual enhancements cost because you still have to spend enough points to unlock the "points spent in tree" gate. Maj was talking about the individual enhancements, not the gating itself.

    Thanks to forum response the gating costs came down a little, but that fails to address the fundamental problem that "points spent in tree" is far more restrictive than what we have on live no matter what values they plug in.


    And now you can get the entire Haste boost enhancement from that splash. This is a buff. Limiting it to 3 trees is a design problem
    It is not a buff at all, since my core ranger enhancements are arbitrarily spread over 3 trees meaning I don't get to spend a single point in a rogue tree. That's a nerf. Agreed that this is one of the core design problems. (The other is the "points spent in tree" gating mechanic.)

  3. #43
    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Woah woah wait. Where in God's name are you getting that it will cost 60 points to get Devotion? It's hard to find a place to put 40 points into a tree, which is why they lowered the capstone down to a 30 point prereq. Where are you getting that it will cost you 60 points to get devotion?

    The INT thing is a compromise most MIN/MAX players will hate no matter what you do. OH NO I HAVE TO START WITH 18 STR NO MATTER WHAT I DO YOURE A GIMP IF YOU DONT!!! Yeah when this spellpower change goes live, my Paladin will drop 1-2 str and put it into INT to get more Devotion and spellcraft. Since he's a bladeforged his self healing will actually increase, since I'm 99% sure he doesn't have a repair power line. 1 point of damage vs better self healing, umm yeah I'm going with self healing.

    I don't mind the 3 gate style they've got, nor do I mind the "Points spent in tree" setup. Could they get rid of it? Potentially yes but then you risk having a supremely lopsided power curve. Oh I've got 30 points into Tempest for those bonuses? Well now I've got enough points to take the Kensai Capstone. Oh you're a wizard with a rogue splash? I DEMAND TO TAKE ASSASSINATE!

    Some of these complaints are becoming ignorant. How many things do you want from the top tier of Stalwart Defender on your fighter? Would you prefer the incoherent, horrid list design that will eventually be the death of this game simply because it allows for an nth more flexibility to take some small bonuses than you would have? Do all you want on your Ranger is Slayer arrows (old style, I like the new style more), Tempest 3, and Sniper shot but want to spend nothing else in those trees for some extra bonuses? If anything this isn't ruining all multi class builds, it's making them more powerful. This is actually hurting Pure class builds more since if you don't want anything from Stalwart on your Kensai, yet you're a pure fighter, you end up with about 20 points you have no place for. This is forcing multiclassing WAY more than it's forcing pure classes.

    I'm still waiting for the reasoning why a caster cleric will become gimped at the lack of their non-existent enhancements.

  4. #44
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The enhancement pass preview had an interesting ability to separate the people who pretend to know about the game and building toons but only regurgitate forum posts and builds, from people that actually understand the game and know how to build solid toons.
    From the newcomer point of view, that starts fresh, sure the Enhancement Pass is great, as it makes things easier to have a decent character that will work well in one of the role.

    From the old players point of view the pass is going to void a lot of builds, and for some of us TR is not an option either because fixed group, permadeath, lack of time or lack of will to go through the hassle of TRing, reflagging, regearing.
    Our characters are solid right now, but they will be severely gimped by the loss of a lot of things with the enhancement pass.
    Also the enhancement pass as it was shown in L-Space a few weeks ago is going to kill a lot of side options that could be taken by each class like Self Healing Fighters, Offensive Spellcasting Clerics, Healing FvS, Some Clonks, Rapier TWF Mechanic Rogues ( ok, they can go Assassin, but still )....
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  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=Nightmanis;5018317]Woah woah wait. Where in God's name are you getting that it will cost 60 points to get Devotion? It's hard to find a place to put 40 points into a tree, which is why they lowered the capstone down to a 30 point prereq. Where are you getting that it will cost you 60 points to get devotion?


    Before you chime in with your 2 cents, make sure you understand the argument.....

    Paladin Sacred Defender gains 1 positive spellpower with each point spent in that tree....it has nothing to do with the capstone.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Keep telling yourself that.

    I'm guessing you're a "trinity" player, who expects divines to take care of your melees' red bars. For self-healing melees, the enhancement pass is a massive nerf. Not a "perceived" nerf, and actual, hardcore nerf by either a) not having any devotion at all (rangers) or b) putting all devotion in only a single tree (paladins), meaning that you all of a sudden have to spend every single point in that one tree to match your existing devotion on live. Three guesses how they implement ranger devotion. (Hint: Like paladins, it will only be in a single tree. I'll bet Arcane Archer, or possibly Deepwood Stalker, and tempests can just go pound sand.)

    Paladins and rangers who took both the devotion lines and human/helf improved recovery got nerfed no matter how you slice it.
    You probably shouldn't make assumptions about other people.

    Things will definitely be different. Paladins and rangers taking both devotion lines and humaln/helf improved recovery now are creating a gimped toon. There are several different ways to have a fully self-sufficient melee with better DPS. I'm sure there will be several different ways for people to build bad toons in the new enhancement pass as well. Just as there will be new ways to build high-dps melee toons that are self-sufficient. Things are going to change. Builds are going to be broken. No one said they wouldn't. But there will be new things, and there will be better builds.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flavilandile View Post
    From the newcomer point of view, that starts fresh, sure the Enhancement Pass is great, as it makes things easier to have a decent character that will work well in one of the role.

    From the old players point of view the pass is going to void a lot of builds, and for some of us TR is not an option either because fixed group, permadeath, lack of time or lack of will to go through the hassle of TRing, reflagging, regearing.
    Our characters are solid right now, but they will be severely gimped by the loss of a lot of things with the enhancement pass.
    Also the enhancement pass as it was shown in L-Space a few weeks ago is going to kill a lot of side options that could be taken by each class like Self Healing Fighters, Offensive Spellcasting Clerics, Healing FvS, Some Clonks, Rapier TWF Mechanic Rogues ( ok, they can go Assassin, but still )....
    Yes, I'm aware that they're going to have to give away free TRs and such. Everyone is going to have to redo their toon. It sucks. It really does, but we knew this was coming. We've known about it forever. And hopefully the initial suckiness will be rewarded with a huge payoff.

    Also, self healing fighters are still doable. Probably easier to make. Pure offensive spellcasting clerics are no longer doable. But a splashed and well built offensive cleric is doable, and IS better than what we currently have. clonks and such I have no comment about since I didn't make one, but I see no reason why they wouldn't be doable.

  8. #48

  9. #49
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    For those saying "it was only Alpha" you have to understand that even IF they made significant changes when they show us Beta, that will essentially be "it". They may make small changes to the Beta release but it will essentially be done. So, many people continue voicing their opinion about what was wrong with Alpha in the hopes that we can ensure that Beta will be something reasonable instead of DDOs NGE.

  10. #50
    Community Member Arnhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    For those saying "it was only Alpha" you have to understand that even IF they made significant changes when they show us Beta, that will essentially be "it". They may make small changes to the Beta release but it will essentially be done. So, many people continue voicing their opinion about what was wrong with Alpha in the hopes that we can ensure that Beta will be something reasonable instead of DDOs NGE.
    Yeppers. Get used to it folks, the Enhancement Pass is going to require everyone to change future builds. In some cases, a whole new playstyle will be required. *sadness*
    There is no free lunch.

  11. #51
    Community Member Phemt81's Avatar
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    Looks like enhancement pass means also skills nerf these days.
    How to revamp past life reward system <--- working again
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.
    Developers should fix this

  12. #52
    Community Member AzB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    Yeppers. Get used to it folks, the Enhancement Pass is going to require everyone to change future builds. In some cases, a whole new playstyle will be required. *sadness*

    Yes, because change is bad!

    There are some good things about the enhancement pass as well.

    And I'm no fanboi, I'm simply waiting to see what it's actually like before I get all depressed and stuff.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnhelm View Post
    Yeppers. Get used to it folks, the Enhancement Pass is going to require everyone to change future builds. In some cases, a whole new playstyle will be required. *sadness*
    Remaking my monk with the new enhancements would be impossible since void strike 3 is removed and void strike 4 is heavily nerfed. Assuming off hand strikes not proccing isn't just a bug and it gets fixed, it would still require 116 enhancement points, to get close to my current monk. This isn't a special build, this isn't a multi-class thing, this is just a pure monk. All because Turbine has decided they want everything visible on the screen at the same time to make it easier for new people. Huzzah. Destroy the character I've been playing for years for that.

  14. #54
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    You probably shouldn't make assumptions about other people.
    You mean like making the assumption that anyone who doesn't agree with you does not know how to build characters?

    I agree probably shouldn't do that, also;

    Probably a bad idea to make hypocritical suggestions in a patronizing tone when one is guilty of doing that thing themselves, in the same thread. That could get embarrassing.

  15. #55
    Community Member Zyerz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    We've only seen an early alpha and the new system has lots of potential.
    This.

    "Hikari datte, yami datte, kitto"

    Into light, into darkness, surely.

  16. #56
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Yes, I'm aware that they're going to have to give away free TRs and such.
    Then you have high hopes... I expect them at best to give us a free LR... and that won't fix broken characters.
    And as I said there's a bunch of people unwilling to go through the hassle of a TR ( for whatever reasons ) to fix a character because the carpet has been pulled under it.
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  17. #57
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    Default Opportunities

    Personally, I really like what I saw of the new system on lammania. My main is going to end up as an Arcane Archer of some sort in her final incarnation (she's currently on her 7th life) and I love what they did with AA.

    My second favorite character is my rouge Assassin. I liked what I saw in that line, too. Seems Assassins are going to totally rock at poaching kills. Yes, I intentionally steal kills. The people I play with are cool with it and make it a friendly contest to try and keep me from poaching.

    As for the issue of adapting to the changes, I don't think this is going to be as big a turn off as some are saying. This game has been evolving and changing since I started playing and I enjoy coming up with new builds and strategies. I have all sorts of project characters and I look forward to figuring out the new enhancement and skill systems. This is what I like about DDO.

    I've had concept builds nerfed/ruined before with updates and that's ok. I have several toons that I don't play as they didn't turn out how I hoped or they were nerfed. That's part of the challenge. I have 14 character slots just so I can experiment. With the new systems, it might be a good time to dust those 'stuck' characters off and do something with them.

    So, I don't see a problem. I only see opportunities.

  18. #58
    Community Member Elation's Avatar
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    Default There is a Difference between Alpha and Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post
    There is no distinction between Alpha and Beta in DDO, what you see on Lammania is what you will get on live. I've never known a time when it's been any different and I've been playing since early 2010. So please stop basing arguments on those semantics, they will be shown to fail every time.
    Thats because you were not here long enough to ever experience an Alpha, So how about we try this again this is an alpha as they stated in- complete and not fully functioning to its fullest extent. Since i have participated in alpha before which obviously you have not there is quite a difference. The reason they released an alpha is because they realize how wide sweeping this change is, You may as well call it DDO2 since essentially it will feel almost like a new game. Oh and that being said by someone who has been around since well before 2010.

    Sorry for that last part it cracks me up to see people post about their length of play time, been around since early 2010 cracks me up....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elation View Post
    Sorry for that last part it cracks me up to see people post about their length of play time, been around since early 2010 cracks me up....
    It cracks me up to see someone believe that they need more than 3 years to understand a game simple enough to be played by children.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    Are the people making decisions going to listen to us when it comes to the enhancement pass?
    Yes they are. 100’s of player bugs and comments have been sent over to dev. I have full reports from surveys, and conversations with players, that along with internal testing paints a pretty clear picture of the good, bad and ugly of the Enhancement system. There is already some pretty big redesigns to the UI and some of the classes…like Clerics.
    Just seemed like it might be worth bringing this here.

    I know the standard rule is to ignore anything said by Turbine officials and instead put all faith and trust into the speculative rantings of fellow players; but I when I see the obvious reading fails (I'll have to spend 60 points in a single tree to get devotion!), blatantly factless suppositions (they're going to stifle diversity!) and ravings of those who have already determined that the initial preview is exactly what we will have on live -intentionally inflated point costs and all- I have to ignore the standard rule.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-09-2013 at 05:24 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

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