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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    You see, they knew that whatever form their system took upon the initial preview, there would have to be adjustments and alterations. (stating the obvious, I know) So rather than giving people an initial preview that let them build "god mode," and tone it down to appropriate levels, they gave an initial preview that limited them to "gimp mode" so they can tone it up to appropriate levels. It's actually kind of a smart approach, IMO.
    I have three major complaints:

    1) Loss of specific spell power lines. This hurts all of my alts, some pretty severely.
    2) The "points spent in tree" gating mechanic. This is fundamentally more restrictive than what we have on live just by its very nature.
    3) The three tree limit. This is a nerf to multiclassing, period.

    I don't see any way those screws will be loosened.

    EDIT: It should go without saying, but just for clarity, the cleric trees are a complete trainwreck and need to be thrown out and redone from the ground up. Give us three cleric trees: one for healbotting, one for offensive casting, and one for melee.

  2. #22
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I wonder... Out of all the people crying doom over the enhancement pass - especially those freaking over it's current (1st) iteration, how many paid attention to the original dev commentary? (Paraphrasing... I forget who said it) "We intentionally set the screws tight so that as we adjusted towards appropriate power levels, it would be "buffing" rather than "nerfing.""
    That's easy!!

    None.

    Much more interesting to get facts from second hand sources and word of mouth then to go look and test for oneself. Easier to let someone else make up your mind then to do it yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  3. #23
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    Sorcs do sort of take a kick in the teeth in a couple of ways, but you are wrong about effectively less CHA. They can take CHA in multiple trees and had it added to the capstone for an increase the available CHA in the enhancements.

    It's obviously the weekend and time for forum drama attempts?

    I would wait for the next preview coming up shortly and see what changes they did make before getting too carried away.
    Well, I certainly don't know the new enhancement system very well but I only see the possibility of +2 CHA in the Sorc tree. Where can you get more? What other ways are Sorcs going to get nerfed other than what I mentioned?

    Btw, I'm not aiming for forum drama. I'm really not happy the way has been heading lately in terms of critical (enjoyment sapping) bugs, the constant increase in levels that provide very little extra power (other than allow you to use better gear) but require grinding for, no new spells for casters and being stuck with MCL 5/10/15 level spells against level 30 monsters, DCs not keeping up monster levels/saving throws, ridiculous drow spell resistance, etc. I have 5 characters (+ mules), many of them TRs, and my Sorc has been the only one I enjoy playing. Also, to anyone who has played PnP, do any of the quests really feel like you are playing D&D? There are no stories/backgrounds for most quests, it just seems like you are checking boxes on the top right corner of the screen as you run around total arcade style FPS kill mode.

  4. #24
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I wonder... Out of all the people crying doom over the enhancement pass - especially those freaking over it's current (1st) iteration, how many paid attention to the original dev commentary? (Paraphrasing... I forget who said it) "We intentionally set the screws tight so that as we adjusted towards appropriate power levels, it would be "buffing" rather than "nerfing.""

    You see, they knew that whatever form their system took upon the initial preview, there would have to be adjustments and alterations. (stating the obvious, I know) So rather than giving people an initial preview that let them build "god mode," and tone it down to appropriate levels, they gave an initial preview that limited them to "gimp mode" so they can tone it up to appropriate levels. It's actually kind of a smart approach, IMO.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I certainly have my doubts. From content that was broken upon release, to getting stuck in walls to this aggravating new forum; Turbine has certainly earned a measure of cynicism from it's players. But what I have is only doubts, not omfg this is gonna bork the game, and ruin everything, and-and it'll be like knowing both the question and it's answer, and-and-and... Dooooooom!1!1!11!!!!!!1 I mean come on, it's a bit early for all of that, isn't it?

    If you really believe this game is toast with the pass, why are you still here? Just so you can hang on long enough to say "I told you so!" as the servers get shut down after the mass exodus?
    Right, because they have such a great track record lately of listening to the community and doing a good job with releases. You have a lot more faith right now than most people.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Well, my
    ... ...
    My cleric loses spell power every which way, but I think even the fanbois agree that clerics are getting the shaft in the enhancement pass.
    That depends if they use Lub or not...

  6. #26
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    Call me contrarian, but I don't agree with all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over this.

    First, it's an alpha. They're experimenting. This isn't set in stone, and it's not going to be foisted on us without a lot more work.

    Second, I am of the opinion that the class system desperately needed overhauling, because they are way, way too imbalanced right now. I just did a Paladin life and loved it until I got up to epic levels, when it promptly became close to useless. My support abilities were basically no longer required, and everyone else did more damage. At best I was a distraction for the real damage-dealers to kill stuff.

    Third, while the current system allegedly "encourages creativity", does it really? I seem to see the exact same builds over and over again because adding 2 or 6 levels of particular classes to many builds is seen as a "no brainer". It'd like to see people have to make REAL trade-offs, not just automatically take things to give themselves freebie abilities.

    I'd like to see people have more reason to play classes like paladin and bard and less reason to put monk levels on everything, as just one example. And yes, casters need a good solid nerfing IMO.

  7. #27
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Call me contrarian, but I don't agree with all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over this.

    First, it's an alpha. They're experimenting. This isn't set in stone, and it's not going to be foisted on us without a lot more work.

    Second, I am of the opinion that the class system desperately needed overhauling, because they are way, way too imbalanced right now. I just did a Paladin life and loved it until I got up to epic levels, when it promptly became close to useless. My support abilities were basically no longer required, and everyone else did more damage. At best I was a distraction for the real damage-dealers to kill stuff.

    Third, while the current system allegedly "encourages creativity", does it really? I seem to see the exact same builds over and over again because adding 2 or 6 levels of particular classes to many builds is seen as a "no brainer". It'd like to see people have to make REAL trade-offs, not just automatically take things to give themselves freebie abilities.

    I'd like to see people have more reason to play classes like paladin and bard and less reason to put monk levels on everything, as just one example. And yes, casters need a good solid nerfing IMO.
    How many casters have you played? How many of them have you played on EE? Have you tried tree form or master's blitz with your pally? If you are having trouble with dps I recommend doing a bit of research because there is a good chance that you are the reason you have poor dps rather than the class.

  8. #28
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    Call me contrarian, but I don't agree with all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over this.

    First, it's an alpha. They're experimenting. This isn't set in stone, and it's not going to be foisted on us without a lot more work.

    Second, I am of the opinion that the class system desperately needed overhauling, because they are way, way too imbalanced right now. I just did a Paladin life and loved it until I got up to epic levels, when it promptly became close to useless. My support abilities were basically no longer required, and everyone else did more damage. At best I was a distraction for the real damage-dealers to kill stuff.

    Third, while the current system allegedly "encourages creativity", does it really? I seem to see the exact same builds over and over again because adding 2 or 6 levels of particular classes to many builds is seen as a "no brainer". It'd like to see people have to make REAL trade-offs, not just automatically take things to give themselves freebie abilities.

    I'd like to see people have more reason to play classes like paladin and bard and less reason to put monk levels on everything, as just one example. And yes, casters need a good solid nerfing IMO.
    NERF CASTERS!!111 NERF CASTERS!!!1 I've never played one but they steal kills from me. wah. wah. Perhaps you should stick to single player games.

  9. #29
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    The enhancement pass preview had an interesting ability to separate the people who pretend to know about the game and building toons but only regurgitate forum posts and builds, from people that actually understand the game and know how to build solid toons.

    There were problems with the preview. There were bugs and there were some ideas that were dumb. But, for people with actual knowledge that took the time to build some test toons their is a realization that the enhancement pass is going to add a lot of power in places others see nerfs.

    I expect when it's released there will be a lot of bugs and a lot of moans and groans about the nerfs. I expect those moans to continue until people knowledgeable about the game start posting builds for these people to copy, and then I expect the moans to stop with no acknowledgment that they were being stupid.

  10. #30
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The enhancement pass preview had an interesting ability to separate the people who pretend to know about the game and building toons but only regurgitate forum posts and builds, from people that actually understand the game and know how to build solid toons.

    There were problems with the preview. There were bugs and there were some ideas that were dumb. But, for people with actual knowledge that took the time to build some test toons their is a realization that the enhancement pass is going to add a lot of power in places others see nerfs.

    I expect when it's released there will be a lot of bugs and a lot of moans and groans about the nerfs. I expect those moans to continue until people knowledgeable about the game start posting builds for these people to copy, and then I expect the moans to stop with no acknowledgment that they were being stupid.
    And there are many problems with it too. I'll use one that I have some experience with the druid class. The caster prc gained quite a bit with sla that are badly needed and didn't seem to loose much with the spwr skill changes though the respec for higher int for skill points will be painful. Melee druids however lost a lot. Currently with a melee druid you could get almost everything thats in the melee tree of the ep but in the ep they had no healing spwr, (unless they changed it after I initially looked but I don't think they were going to do that) That means that wolf form druids are getting a massive nerf because they will not be able to self heal or help heal a party effectively because their heals simply won't hit hard enough.

  11. #31
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    How many casters have you played? How many of them have you played on EE? Have you tried tree form or master's blitz with your pally? If you are having trouble with dps I recommend doing a bit of research because there is a good chance that you are the reason you have poor dps rather than the class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    NERF CASTERS!!111 NERF CASTERS!!!1 I've never played one but they steal kills from me. wah. wah. Perhaps you should stick to single player games.
    Perhaps you could try and offer something meaning full to the discusion?
    Perhaps a suggestion on how to compensate for any perceived nerfs, or offer an opinion on something besides what other players should or shouldn't do?
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  12. #32
    Community Member moops's Avatar
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    1-I play a Cleric as my main--so even knowing that the screws were purposely tight did not help, because clerics really, really got the shaft.

    2-This greatly reduced my desire to play DDO even tho I knew the enhancement pass was in beta

    3-Because I have been playing since 2006, and I know that Turbine has a bad habit of not listening to player base.

    4-I still come here, in hopes that Devs will saying something about a couple of the huge issues I have with the game atm, and Ta Da, for the first time ever, I read in a Dev response that they realize how bad they f*d up clerics...now I will stick around long enough checking in on the boards and games, to see what they do to fix it.

    5-However, I don't have the desire to play any of my Clerics, FVS, or Arcanes atm because of all the bugs, so I don't play much. When DDO came out with Destinies, it became clear to me that I could no longer play 10 dif alts, and so I whittled down to 5, none of which are melee.

    6- Because, after 7 years playing this game and every class, I know that I enjoy playing Arcanes and Divines the most, and don't feel that because these are borked atm, that I should play a melee instead.
    Hexxa CLR 25 *TR* * ~Hexanna ~*TR* FVS 25 * Hexecuter CLR 20 *Flexanna RGR/R/M 18/1/1 *TR* * Flexa FTR/R 18/2 TR * Hextravaganz Bard *TR* 18/2 * Hexotic Sorc 13 * Hexquisite Wiz 23 * ~~Quantum Entropy * SARLONA~~ - * and various other scoundrels

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by moops View Post
    1-I play a Cleric as my main--so even knowing that the screws were purposely tight did not help, because clerics really, really got the shaft.

    2-This greatly reduced my desire to play DDO even tho I knew the enhancement pass was in beta

    3-Because I have been playing since 2006, and I know that Turbine has a bad habit of not listening to player base.

    4-I still come here, in hopes that Devs will saying something about a couple of the huge issues I have with the game atm, and Ta Da, for the first time ever, I read in a Dev response that they realize how bad they f*d up clerics...now I will stick around long enough checking in on the boards and games, to see what they do to fix it.

    5-However, I don't have the desire to play any of my Clerics, FVS, or Arcanes atm because of all the bugs, so I don't play much. When DDO came out with Destinies, it became clear to me that I could no longer play 10 dif alts, and so I whittled down to 5, none of which are melee.

    6- Because, after 7 years playing this game and every class, I know that I enjoy playing Arcanes and Divines the most, and don't feel that because these are borked atm, that I should play a melee instead.
    join the bend over shafted club m8.. welcum..or not...

  14. #34
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Perhaps you could try and offer something meaning full to the discusion?
    Perhaps a suggestion on how to compensate for any perceived nerfs, or offer an opinion on something besides what other players should or shouldn't do?
    I fully admitted I'm in learning mode when it comes to the enhancement pass and I have more questions than answers. I did provide some pretty obvious tips to him (that he likely hasn't tried) in order to help him with his melee dps.

  15. #35
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    I have three major complaints:

    1) Loss of specific spell power lines. This hurts all of my alts, some pretty severely.
    If final implementation has a single "generic" spell power, this will be a buff rather than nerf. Specific spell power lines restrict options by making you good at acid but not cold. Generic spell power makes you equally good at everything.

    2) The "points spent in tree" gating mechanic. This is fundamentally more restrictive than what we have on live just by its very nature.
    Reducing the point costs will reduce the restrictiveness of this.

    3) The three tree limit. This is a nerf to multiclassing, period.
    Yah, this one of those things that goes into my "doubts" category

    I don't see any way those screws will be loosened.

    EDIT: It should go without saying, but just for clarity, the cleric trees are a complete trainwreck and need to be thrown out and redone from the ground up. Give us three cleric trees: one for healbotting, one for offensive casting, and one for melee.
    Potential screw loosenings in bold
    Further extrapolation below...

    1) I'll have to see how this plays out, but I can certainly see some advantages in only buying "spell power" vs "acid & force & fire & electric" spell powers individually. Should all opportunities to modify spell power through enhancements be permantaly removed from the game, now that would be a rage worthy offense.

    2) I disagree. In short, under the current system I already have to waste points on things I don't want because of prerequisites. I don't see how having to waste points on things I don't want in a tree is any different - or more restrictive - from wasting points on prerequisites. Granted, I was hoping the new system would would have less-or-no forced point wasting, but seems I'm out of luck there...

    3) This is more difficult for me to speak to. I've never had (what I would call) a true multi-class (6/6/8 or 12/8 or 12/6/2) that I enjoyed enough to really tinker with. On simple splash builds, I never found myself spending much ap in the splashed class' enhancements; I'll take your word for it on this one

    Re: edit/Clerics: This one I'm mostly with you on. The lack of a new Cleric pre is a huge disappointment. My hope is that expanded divine potential is slated for another point in the review cycle.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  16. #36
    Community Member arkonas's Avatar
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    wow this again?. i really wished people would just be patient to wait for the next version instead of complaining about an alpha version which yet again was alpha. i noticed one person who has been complaining this entire time about the same thing just can't wait for the next stage of it. must keep saying the same thing over and over.


    Guys, seriously why can't a few of you just relax and wait for the next run of it? keep your moaning and groaning of the same thing from many threads to the next stage. Ugh thank god most of the game doesnt think like this. just some forum people. my comments will wait until the next stage until then have fun. you wont solve anything complaining right now when nothing has been updated yet.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The enhancement pass preview had an interesting ability to separate the people who pretend to know about the game and building toons but only regurgitate forum posts and builds, from people that actually understand the game and know how to build solid toons.

    There were problems with the preview. There were bugs and there were some ideas that were dumb. But, for people with actual knowledge that took the time to build some test toons their is a realization that the enhancement pass is going to add a lot of power in places others see nerfs.

    I expect when it's released there will be a lot of bugs and a lot of moans and groans about the nerfs. I expect those moans to continue until people knowledgeable about the game start posting builds for these people to copy, and then I expect the moans to stop with no acknowledgment that they were being stupid.
    Keep telling yourself that.

    I'm guessing you're a "trinity" player, who expects divines to take care of your melees' red bars. For self-healing melees, the enhancement pass is a massive nerf. Not a "perceived" nerf, and actual, hardcore nerf by either a) not having any devotion at all (rangers) or b) putting all devotion in only a single tree (paladins), meaning that you all of a sudden have to spend every single point in that one tree to match your existing devotion on live. Three guesses how they implement ranger devotion. (Hint: Like paladins, it will only be in a single tree. I'll bet Arcane Archer, or possibly Deepwood Stalker, and tempests can just go pound sand.)

    Paladins and rangers who took both the devotion lines and human/helf improved recovery got nerfed no matter how you slice it.


    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    I can certainly see some advantages in only buying "spell power" vs "acid & force & fire & electric" spell powers individually. Should all opportunities to modify spell power through enhancements be permantaly removed from the game, now that would be a rage worthy offense.
    This is bad for the game. It's about as stark as it gets in terms of rducing build customization, for one. No more choice, now we're all the same.

    And that "all oppotunities to modify spell power" did indeed happen to rangers. Devs have said they'll add devotion back in, but there is no reason to think that they'll do it any other way than they did it for paladins, which is to give them devotion based on AP spent in a single tree. That is a very, very bad solution; it's a massive nerf to any rangers who weren't already specializing in that one arbitrarily selected tree.

    In short, under the current system I already have to waste points on things I don't want because of prerequisites. I don't see how having to waste points on things I don't want in a tree is any different - or more restrictive - from wasting points on prerequisites. Granted, I was hoping the new system would would have less-or-no forced point wasting, but seems I'm out of luck there...
    This bespeaks a fundamental misunderstanding of the differences of the two systems. On live, you typically have to spend a half dozen or so points on arbitrary prereqs you don't want. On alpha, we're talkiing upwards of 20 points (or more) on c rap you don't want or need. Consider the human improved recovery line. If you want the full line and nothing else in the human tree, how many points are you literally throwing away just for that? 20?

    The amount of wasted prereq points on alpha was exponentially more than live could ever dream of. This isn't a matter of the values needing to be tweaked; it's a fundamental property of the "points spent in tree" mechanic.

    3) This is more difficult for me to speak to. I've never had (what I would call) a true multi-class (6/6/8 or 12/8 or 12/6/2) that I enjoyed enough to really tinker with. On simple splash builds, I never found myself spending much ap in the splashed class' enhancements; I'll take your word for it on this one
    My rogue-splashed melee very much enjoy taking rogue haste boost 1 and sneak attack training. Guess those don't matter, right? DPS isn't needed in the game, after all. My wizard rogue doesn't spend a single point in the rogue tree, though, so on that you have a fair point.

    I'm currently leveling a 12/8 fighter/cleric. I don't think it's fair to cite all the ways it will be hurt, though, since the cleric tree fiasco makes that impossible to gauge realistically.

  18. #38
    Community Member Drus-the-Axe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moops View Post
    2-This greatly reduced my desire to play DDO even tho I knew the enhancement pass was in beta
    Alpha. Not Beta. That's important. I know it can be hard to tell, but there _used_ to be such a thing.

    Alpha -- earlier than beta, parts may be partially done, sufficient to get an idea of how it pans out, but nowhere near finished
    Beta -- generally working, has known issues, shared to get feedback, not ready to ship yet
    Gamma -- nearly done, almost ready to ship
    Delta -- done, except maybe for some specific reason (what google calls 'beta' :P)

    Other common terms we used to have in the industry
    RC (Release Candidate) -- what you consider ready to ship, before QA has signed off.
    RTM (Release-To-Manufacturing) -- ship it!

    You'd call it RC1 and hand to QA, if it passed all tests would become RTM, else dev would make changes and provide an RC2 to QA, lather rinse repeat

    Almost no on used the term 'delta'. Apple's ResourceEditor was the only thing I can think of.
    Gamma was almost as exotic.
    Beta was popular. Pre-internet, it gave you a chance for feedback and wide shakedown before release.
    Alpha was used to share some early work, specifically to get feedback. Usually a small audience vs beta (which could be small or wide).

    Turbine said this was alpha. That's important.


    And it matters because they've never used that term (not in 5+ years).
    Unlike Google who calls everything 'Beta' even after it's been in broad public and paying use for years.
    Unlike NWO who release 'beta' with a working cash shop and promise of no wipe on 'release'.
    Turbine's always called Lamania 'beta' (or preview, or prerelease, or the like). They used the term 'alpha', which is appropriate given what was shared.


    Quote Originally Posted by moops View Post
    3-Because I have been playing since 2006, and I know that Turbine has a bad habit of not listening to player base.
    Unfair. They listen. They don't always heed public feedback. Software development is a team sport, and Turbine is a for-profit organization. It's not a democacracy or socialistic commune. Sometimes individuals hold more sway than others (for good and for bad). Sometimes there are reasons you simply wouldn't understand, if you weren't inside and seeing how the sausage is made. Sometimes they have their own vision of where to head, which differs from yours.

    Personally I'm impressed the game holds up so well. It feels unlike anything else out there (and I look). I'm concerned about parts of the enhancement pass, but I'm reserving judgement (for now). I agree, the divines weren't very well done and are in need of essentially a rewrite. I dislike the point gating and other things. There's a lot of ways to do things (many of them bad), and in a large game (and esp MMO) there's a lof of interlocking variables that require you to grasp the gestalt to really see if a chance is for the better or worse. Given the great character creatrion and advancement flexibility, and the notable and variety of impact on gameplay from character development, the enhancement pass is a very big deal. So I was happy to see them sharing such early work, and seemingly heeding the community's response. Will see how that plays out. I'm also glad to see them taking their sweet time. That's partly because of other work (I'm sure u18 and the expansion's eating up resources), but also partly it gives them plenty of time to share their work, get feedback and refine.

    We've heard for years the DDO codebase and tooling can be rough to work in, so it's not surprising the enhancement pass is taking so long, and their recent bug slipups (things sneaking into u18).

    If you've never developed software you may not understand why such a 'simple' request so 'obviously' right by the community could take so long and end up not heeded. Fair enough. But sausage making is a complicated beast. Judge by its taste, not your perception of the chef's incompetence.

    (and equally, DO judge its taste, texture and presentation. after all, you're not paying for the chef to have fun, you're paying for the end result)


    Quote Originally Posted by moops View Post
    6- Because, after 7 years playing this game and every class, I know that I enjoy playing Arcanes and Divines the most, and don't feel that because these are borked atm, that I should play a melee instead.
    I end more towards arcanes and archers, though I've played most everything on occasion. And the current system _is_ borked, in certain areas. Doesn't mean it's not fun, but it's not living up to its full potential either. The real question is if Turbine can build an enhancement system that's at least equally fun as the current system, if not more flexible, easy (enough) to grasp and stable. So far I see attempts to address long standing weaknesses (DEX builds etc). I hope they don't ship until it's ready, and by ready I mean meets those meta goals. We shall see.

    ---A longtime paying customer

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    There is no distinction between Alpha and Beta in DDO, what you see on Lammania is what you will get on live. I've never known a time when it's been any different and I've been playing since early 2010. So please stop basing arguments on those semantics, they will be shown to fail every time.

  20. #40
    2016 DDO Players Council Qhualor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post
    what you see on Lammania is what you will get on live.
    99% true, including the bugs. when its last stage and on Lama, that's what we get. devs will tell us before it hits live. any changes are made in future patches.

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