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  1. #21
    Community Member Forzah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Which is more than you thought in any case. 35% of DPS decrease is a small thing? Then we ar eplaying two different games. I'd like to see you playing your melees with 20/x2 weapons as well. We will see if you still think that you aren't a burden to your party.

    Oh and btw, it was a 12% lore item + 9% from enhancement = 21%.
    35% is the total amount of damage you do because of criticals. I don't think you've lost all of it. If critical damage/rate is about half of what it used to be you'll be at about 20%.

  2. #22
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzah View Post
    35% is the total amount of damage you do because of criticals. I don't think you've lost all of it. If critical damage/rate is about half of what it used to be you'll be at about 20%.
    It's not half, it's more. Our crit chance from 21% is now 6%. We have also lost the 0.50 critical damage.

    I'll state it again: 20% is a lot more than you think. Even 10% is a lot in a game where people strive for that 2 STR for +1 to dmg. Try to do it with your melees and you will see what I'm talking about.

    If you disagree that 20% of the total DPS is not A LOT, you are playing something different. This should be hotfixed right away when the fix is avaible, not wait 2 months.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Lore items are doing nothing.

    The first tier of enhancement is now 1% instead of 4%, left over from the Enhancement preview.

    So we have like 6% chance to crit, the crit damage is bugged because the items are bugged and casters are SOL.
    so crit chance dropped from like 21% to 6%??? wow. didn't seem like my spells were doing much anymore but that is ridiculous. how could they screw something like this up so badly and why don't they fix it?

  4. #24
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Well, gl on getting specifics... As the enhancement pass is due (presumably) in late August, I imagine Turbine doesn't see the need to completely fix something that's only going to be around for ~8 weeks (from the time of 18.2) Heck, in some cases, they don't seem to see the need to fix something that'll be here permantaly...

    As for what to do... Maybe expand your horizons beyond casters? Not being facetious, just pragmatic. If casters are broken beyond your ability to enjoy, try to enjoy something else...
    I have 5 characters (+ mules), most of them TR, and the only one I really enjoy playing is my Sorc. It matches my playstyle and what I want from the game. I have expanded my horizons, and running around hacking away at everything gets boring fairly quick. I don't like ranged attacking. Why does Turbine care so little about its DDO fanbase right now? I guess they are onto bigger and better things?

    Please excuse any typos...hard to see anything I type. Who thought it was smart to force people to type with black font on a dark grey background? Do people even think anymore? I seriously doubt there was any type of discussion on it because I don't think it would go very well.

  5. #25
    Community Member Hathorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    It's not half, it's more. Our crit chance from 21% is now 6%. We have also lost the 0.50 critical damage.

    I'll state it again: 20% is a lot more than you think. Even 10% is a lot in a game where people strive for that 2 STR for +1 to dmg. Try to do it with your melees and you will see what I'm talking about.

    If you disagree that 20% of the total DPS is not A LOT, you are playing something different. This should be hotfixed right away when the fix is avaible, not wait 2 months.
    Yeah, I'd like to see Permaban's (and other peoples' response) if all melees lost 20% of their dps. Lol. It would be WWIII.

  6. #26
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hathorian View Post
    Yeah, I'd like to see Permaban's (and other peoples' response) if all melees lost 20% of their dps. Lol. It would be WWIII.
    What's this!? I wake up, and the first thing I see over my coffee & doughnut is a direct invitation? Well, I surely won't be rude enough to refuse that...

    Not sure how long you two have been in the game, I've been here since f2p launched in '09. So here's a little reminiscing from the past...

    Once upon a time, two weapon fighters had independent attack rolls for both primary and off hand weapons. In the name of reducing "dps lag" this was changed (nerfed) to where there is now a proc chance for an off hand attack. (in other words TWF is essentially an extension of double strike: after your "main hand weapon" hits, your "off hand weapon has a chance to proc a hit).

    This was a huge nerf to TWF melees everywhere and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth and threats to rage quit, sue and do unspeakable things to Turbines family members. You know what happened? The change went ahead as planned and the players adapted, and TWF builds still manage to run around at all difficulty levels and *gasp* enjoy them selves!

    Next let me tell you the story of my old friend Stun. Stun is a pretty decent fellow, but just a shadow of his former self...

    You see, a stunned mob used mean that all hits were automagically a critical hit (and the same was true for his cousins: Paralyzed & Held) Think about that a moment... Ah.. The by-gone days of the pick wielding crit-miesters... Anyway, this was making melees much to powerful (according to Turbine, not me!) so now we have the new and reduced Stun. Mobs take 50% more damage while stunned... For those who don't play melees, going from auto-crit (which is at minimum x2) to a flat +50% (aka x.5)** is a much bigger reduction than your proposed "what if melees took a 20% reduction? I bet they would take their ball and run home too!" Yet here we are, still playing, still enjoying the game.

    So, to make a long story longer, the players on the servers enjoying them selves are not the ones doing it wrong. It's just the casters turn for the nerf-bat, but don't worry; Turbine still loves it's most lucrative (store pot chugging) class', so you only get the bat for a few weeks - and that was by accident (bug)! TWF & Stun will always remain a shadow of what they once were, and people will still equip weapons to both hands and stun mobs too.

    Edit:** Not to mention the loss of all those lovely (on crit) "burst effects"
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-08-2013 at 09:35 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  7. #27
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    What's this!? I wake up, and the first thing I see over my coffee & doughnut is a direct invitation? Well, I surely won't be rude enough to refuse that...
    Oh, you are talking about when mobs had not even 1/10 of their total hp? When there was no EE with mobs with over 9k hp? Totally the same thing.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    "Things that happened 4 years ago and are not at all relevant now"
    Sometimes, I too type just to read myself speak.

  9. #29
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Oh, you are talking about when mobs had not even 1/10 of their total hp? When there was no EE with mobs with over 9k hp? Totally the same thing.
    The question was asked, "what would I do if melee dmg was nerfed by 20%." Mob HP values are not relevant because the question was in regards to my damage out put.

    The short answer is "I would keep on meleeing."

    What if they nerfed it? They did, big time and twice. How's it relevant? If they nerfed it again I would still play. It's age makes it more relevant. When it happened to TWF & stun/etc, it was not a bug that would last a few weeks, it was a permanent change. If they did the equivalent to casters, Wizza would never come back. If a 20% loss makes him an unplayable gimp that won't log in until it's fixed, imagine what a 50-80% loss would do. Yet people still played twf & stun based melee then & now, just like people still play casters during this (did I mention far briefer and smaller?) bug.

    Sure there would be some b*tching & whining if melee took a 20% hit, but very few would leave even temporarily.
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-09-2013 at 06:28 AM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  10. #30
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    The question was asked, "what would I do if melee dmg was nerfed by 20%."

    The short answer is "I would keep on meleeing."

    What if they nerfed it? They did, big time and twice. How's it relevant? If they nerfed it again I would still play. It's age makes it more relevant. When it happened to TWF & stun/etc, it was not a bug that would last a few weeks, it was a permanent change. If they did the equivalent to casters, Wizza would never come back. If a 20% loss makes him an unplayable gimp that won't log in until it's fixed, imagine what a 50-80% loss would do. Yet people still played twf & stun based melee then & now, just like people still play casters during this (did I mention far briefer and smaller?) bug.

    Sure there would be some b*tching & whining if melee took a 20% hit, but very few would leave even temporarily.
    Just so you can stop posting about things happened 4 years ago that are irrelevant to this thread: if they nerfed my caster like it is now on live but mobs hp were cut by 50% like they had before EE was even implemented, I wouldn't mind.

    The thing you are talking about and this bug are apples and cars.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Sure there would be some b*tching & whining if melee took a 20% hit, but very few would leave even temporarily.
    The game population continues to get thinner.

  12. #32
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Just so you can stop posting about things happened 4 years ago that are irrelevant to this thread: if they nerfed my caster like it is now on live but mobs hp were cut by 50% like they had before EE was even implemented, I wouldn't mind.

    The thing you are talking about and this bug are apples and cars.
    Ok, so with no reference to any specific event, I'll restate it:

    If melee dmg out-put were to be nerfed by ~20% due to a bug that would (to keep this as relevant as possible) last from a few weeks to a couple months at most (per the dev confirmation quoted at the start of this thread) I would still continue to play my monk and paladin (my two melee toons); just like all the casters who continue to play through the current casting bug.

    There, relevant enough?
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  13. #33
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Ok, so with no reference to any specific event, I'll restate it:

    If melee dmg out-put were to be nerfed by ~20% due to a bug that would (to keep this as relevant as possible) last from a few weeks to a couple months at most (per the dev confirmation quoted at the start of this thread) I would still continue to play my monk and paladin (my two melee toons); just like all the casters who continue to play through the current casting bug.

    There, relevant enough?
    You can still play whatever you want. That doesn't change the fact that you would be a burden to your party, specially in EE.

    Oh and it's not 20%. It's probably a bit more, but even 20% is a lot.
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  14. #34
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Ah I remember the TWF nerf thread, like 500 pages or something crazy.

    Interesting factoid; in it many agreed that actual DPS loss was about 8 to 12% with the most ardent doom sayers (what ever happened to Squelch?) Saying 15% using hopelessly weighted worst cases.

    Re: this subject; let's not forget that spell power appears in many ways to be getting nerfed. As the new ways to get it appear to have new opportunity costs. Or even simply a practical impossibility, maxing INT, taking massive AP's in trees you don't want to get the "2 spell power for every point spent in this tree" oh BTW that's an EIGHTH NEW RESTRICTIVENESS IN THE NEW SYSTEM; interdependence on AP's spent where none existed before.

    I have a caster that goes from 291 spell power and 25% cit chance at 15th level to 221 and 11% cit chance, with lower multiplier too. oh and who knows what the superior lore on his weapon gets turned into if they are getting rid of it, have they said?

    IMO if you think that's the equivalent of the TWF nerf I think you've got no chance to make a plausible or worthwhile argument on the subject matter of this thread.

  15. #35
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Still not fixed/no clarifications?
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizza View Post
    Still not fixed/no clarifications?
    I will give you the clarification.

    You are trying to play this game as a caster, when the development team has decided they really only care about melee toons. Until you embrace this reality, nothing you see taking place will seem logical or reasonable to you.

  17. #37
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    I'll give you ALL some clarification.

    Maj has stated that the problem will be fixed for the next patch (a band aid until the expansion.)

    This is a bug which is not a game breaking issue, so will not be hotfixed.

    A game breaking issue may contain a bug which can/will/potentially bring the game down. This is not one of them. And so, you will have to wait for the patch. Period.

    We are all free to express our dissatisfaction with in game bugs like this. But we will *never* see hotfixes for bugs like this. This is the reality.

    ...J
    Thelanis: HoeLee, Rasminder, Cerinah, Arlinah, Shrenn, Rowkhan, Paladonis - Jakburton's Porkchop Express (now hiring)

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  18. #38
    Community Member bbcjoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Once upon a time, two weapon fighters had independent attack rolls for both primary and off hand weapons. In the name of reducing "dps lag" this was changed (nerfed) to where there is now a proc chance for an off hand attack. (in other words TWF is essentially an extension of double strike: after your "main hand weapon" hits, your "off hand weapon has a chance to proc a hit).

    This was a huge nerf to TWF melees everywhere and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth and threats to rage quit, sue and do unspeakable things to Turbines family members. You know what happened? The change went ahead as planned and the players adapted, and TWF builds still manage to run around at all difficulty levels and *gasp* enjoy them selves!
    Secondary attacks did not proc in all attacks, only during certain attack animations. The change was only a nerf for those who did not have the full TWF path. Anyone who can do the math can see that a 80% chance in every attack is better than a 100% chance in every two attacks (twitching).

    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    You see, a stunned mob used mean that all hits were automagically a critical hit (and the same was true for his cousins: Paralyzed & Held) Think about that a moment... Ah.. The by-gone days of the pick wielding crit-miesters... Anyway, this was making melees much to powerful (according to Turbine, not me!) so now we have the new and reduced Stun. Mobs take 50% more damage while stunned... For those who don't play melees, going from auto-crit (which is at minimum x2) to a flat +50% (aka x.5)** is a much bigger reduction than your proposed "what if melees took a 20% reduction? I bet they would take their ball and run home too!" Yet here we are, still playing, still enjoying the game.
    You seem under the impression that this changed did hurt more melees than casters. Guess you had no idea how many enchantment-based casters had hold spells prepared and pickaxes ready to abuse this mechanic, specially in early game.

    So, in short, your first claim is not really a nerf and your second claim is an overall nerf, not just for melees. Please provide an example where melees were outright nerfed, like they are doing to casters right now.

  19. #39
    Community Member Wizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamnJD View Post
    I'll give you ALL some clarification.

    Maj has stated that the problem will be fixed for the next patch (a band aid until the expansion.)

    This is a bug which is not a game breaking issue, so will not be hotfixed.

    ...J
    Sorry, stopped reading here. Not a game breaking bug. Sure not!

    @Germanicus: eh, well they could even buff them to be gods. At least fix casters before.
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  20. #40
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    The change was only a nerf for those who did not have the full TWF path. Anyone who can do the math can see that a 80% chance in every attack is better than a 100% chance in every two attacks (twitching).
    What are you talking about? Twitching?

    The change was from having 10 physics checks (to see if a weapon intersected the target) per attack animation to having only 5, but each of those 5 had an 80% chance of producing two damage rolls. You can see that 5 + (5 * 0.80) = 9 is less than 10, but this doesn't really quantify the damage losses due to small, steady pings and alacrity bonus nerfs. If you were trying to twitch to avoid the longer delays at the end of the animation, then 1) You weren't swinging as fast as many "Monster" builds were swinging, 2) Your attack bonus was in the toilet, and 3) You were doing it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbcjoke View Post
    You seem under the impression that this changed did hurt more melees than casters. Guess you had no idea how many enchantment-based casters had hold spells prepared and pickaxes ready to abuse this mechanic, specially in early game.
    Speaking of which, my sorceror is still getting tons of overkill damage when crits happen, but my kensei, who used to equip an Improved Ardor Planar Shield of Major Healing Lore (with Devotion slotted in a red augment slot) before casting Healing Spring is now receiving about 25% less healing than he was.

    Gamewide bugs affect gamewide characters.

    And anyone who thinks melee are even remotely overpowered in comparison to casters simply has no clue how actual late game quests and raids are run. Blue bars rule the DDO universe, even if red bars get the kills.

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