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  1. #1
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Default Nightmare, the Fallen Moon - Good to use on EE Content?

    I recently pulled Nightmare from CiTW and have been playing around with it.

    On eNorm it's pretty wicked. When playing on eHard, because of higher saves and epic ward, it seems to be not as good as weapons with more DPS (khopesh).

    On eElite, I think it works pretty well. Since the mobs have so many hit points... the life stealing (neg levels) proc makes up for the less DPS.

    I'm wondering what others think about this weapon. Is it worth using on EE content... or should I just go with a straight DPS weapon?

    Thanks.
    Dorian

  2. #2
    Community Member Permian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    I recently pulled Nightmare from CiTW and have been playing around with it.

    On eNorm it's pretty wicked. When playing on eHard, because of higher saves and epic ward, it seems to be not as good as weapons with more DPS (khopesh).

    On eElite, I think it works pretty well. Since the mobs have so many hit points... the life stealing (neg levels) proc makes up for the less DPS.

    I'm wondering what others think about this weapon. Is it worth using on EE content... or should I just go with a straight DPS weapon?

    Thanks.
    I haven't played my fighter much lately but I used those pretty much exclusively in EE content. I'm pretty sure they were the highest DPS output at the time for my TWF especially when blitzing through content. Even in FotW they are great DPS generally speaking, if you can fit the feat.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Pretty much the best trash weapon in the game. The more HP the mobs have the betters, especially nice at liquidating orange-names. In lower-level EH quests they're as good as old vorpals.

    Heck . . . those silly daggers from Impossible Demands are great, especially on bad DPS-toons. My 20ish STR hafling clonk can kill EE Sobrien in about 35 seconds with a pair of those.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    I recently pulled Nightmare from CiTW and have been playing around with it.

    On eNorm it's pretty wicked. When playing on eHard, because of higher saves and epic ward, it seems to be not as good as weapons with more DPS (khopesh).

    On eElite, I think it works pretty well. Since the mobs have so many hit points... the life stealing (neg levels) proc makes up for the less DPS.

    I'm wondering what others think about this weapon. Is it worth using on EE content... or should I just go with a straight DPS weapon?

    Thanks.
    It isn't that straight forward. Negative levels put a floor on the total dps done to a mob - but that floor decays exponential with the mob's hp. I'll link to my testing thread about EE negative, levels, and you compute your decision from that. If math, isn't your strong suit:

    The more people neg leveling a target the better - because mob's recover them quickly.
    Also, either the neg levels do no damage, or the damage dealt is ignored. Again, it works best as a group tactic.
    Due to the exponential decay, your dps is almost assured of exceeding the neg levels at some point. For reference, towards then end, a neg level can deal single digit effective damage per level.

    So, if your group is doing it, it makes sense to join in. But, you should switch to a dps weapon once the target's hp bar stop being full or nearly so (that is a visual indictator that the dps effect is greater than the neg level effect - and hence the negs do nothing anymore).

    The only caveat to the weapon switch is if the mob will die so fast anyway that it isn't worth the time to switch.

    Reading this thread might help:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ct-on-Monsters

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    So, if your group is doing it, it makes sense to join in. But, you should switch to a dps weapon once the target's hp bar stop being full or nearly so (that is a visual indictator that the dps effect is greater than the neg level effect - and hence the negs do nothing anymore).

    The only caveat to the weapon switch is if the mob will die so fast anyway that it isn't worth the time to switch.
    I would say another caveat is if you have a DC spell caster in the group, the neg levels will make it easier to land spells even if you're not reducing their hit points anymore.

  6. #6
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Switching weapons when the mob is half HP is just absurd, nothing takes that long to kill. The Nightmare's high base damage makes it decent in that regard anyway.

  7. #7
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    Default One of my favs

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    I recently pulled Nightmare from CiTW and have been playing around with it.

    On eNorm it's pretty wicked. When playing on eHard, because of higher saves and epic ward, it seems to be not as good as weapons with more DPS (khopesh).

    On eElite, I think it works pretty well. Since the mobs have so many hit points... the life stealing (neg levels) proc makes up for the less DPS.

    I'm wondering what others think about this weapon. Is it worth using on EE content... or should I just go with a straight DPS weapon?

    Thanks.
    Nightmare is one of my favorite weapons. I use it in EE. I'm an arty and sometimes I have to put the xbow away and bust out some melee, and when I do, I use the Nightmare.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Nightmare,_the_Fallen_Moon

    On a side note, I do not have the bastard sword as a feat. I use Nightmare with the Chimera's Breath rune arm that gives me bastard sword proficiency.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Chimera%27s_Breath

    I wish there was an Epic version of Chimera's Breath!

    --

    Side note #2, I like to use the Nightmare in the end fight for The Tide Turns quest in the Sentinals of Stormreach pack on EE. I mess them up pretty darn good and the water elementals go down easy for me with Nightmare.

    --

    Side note #3, Nightmare reminds of the sword Stormbringer.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormbringer

    Books by Michael Moorcock featuring Stormbringer

    The Stealer of Souls (1963)
    Stormbringer (1965)
    The Singing Citadel (1970)
    The Vanishing Tower (1970) [1]
    Elric of Melniboné (1972) [2]
    The Sailor on the Seas of Fate (1976)
    The Weird of the White Wolf (1977)
    The Bane of the Black Sword (1977)
    Elric at the End of Time (1984)
    The Fortress of the Pearl (1989)
    The Revenge of the Rose (1991)
    The Dreamthief's Daughter (2001)

    --

    The Chronicle Of The Black Sword for you Hawkwind and Moorcock fans:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STNrzt5jKvo

    --
    Elric the Enchanter - Hawkwind (one of my favs)



    --

    Cheers!

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Switching weapons when the mob is half HP is just absurd, nothing takes that long to kill. The Nightmare's high base damage makes it decent in that regard anyway.
    Not all, and your argument is backwards. If your dps is sufficient that nothing takes that long to kill, then you are silly to ever use Nightmare moon. If you are in a group of 6 people who can do say, 1kdps each, then nightmare moon is worthless. The mobs will dead in 2 - 3 seconds anyway (per mob). You'd be far better off in the that case to junk your nightmare moon and wielding Balizarde or an ESOS or the like. Nightmare moon is only useful if your / your group's dps is bad. And if you have bad dps (and hence might use nightmare moon), then it is silly to assume that "nothing takes that long to kill".

  9. #9
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    It isn't that straight forward. Negative levels put a floor on the total dps done to a mob - but that floor decays exponential with the mob's hp. I'll link to my testing thread about EE negative, levels, and you compute your decision from that. If math, isn't your strong suit:

    The more people neg leveling a target the better - because mob's recover them quickly.
    Also, either the neg levels do no damage, or the damage dealt is ignored. Again, it works best as a group tactic.
    Due to the exponential decay, your dps is almost assured of exceeding the neg levels at some point. For reference, towards then end, a neg level can deal single digit effective damage per level.

    So, if your group is doing it, it makes sense to join in. But, you should switch to a dps weapon once the target's hp bar stop being full or nearly so (that is a visual indictator that the dps effect is greater than the neg level effect - and hence the negs do nothing anymore).

    The only caveat to the weapon switch is if the mob will die so fast anyway that it isn't worth the time to switch.

    Reading this thread might help:
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ct-on-Monsters
    wow. Great thread with the link you provided. This is the kind of info I was looking for. (been playing my caster and using energy drain all wrong)

    ... but I have to agree with Teh_Troll about the switching weapons part. Maybe get quick-draw feat and switch to drow bastard swords? (can't remember base damage of those)

    And also I don't know how we can calculate the DPS from a nightmare proc and failed mob save.
    Dorian

  10. #10
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Not all, and your argument is backwards. If your dps is sufficient that nothing takes that long to kill, then you are silly to ever use Nightmare moon. If you are in a group of 6 people who can do say, 1kdps each, then nightmare moon is worthless. The mobs will dead in 2 - 3 seconds anyway (per mob). You'd be far better off in the that case to junk your nightmare moon and wielding Balizarde or an ESOS or the like. Nightmare moon is only useful if your / your group's dps is bad. And if you have bad dps (and hence might use nightmare moon), then it is silly to assume that "nothing takes that long to kill".
    I can say from experience that you're absolutely wrong.

    Having done many EEs with 4-6 TWFers swinging dual-Nightmares and just seeing the mobs evaporate before our eyes . . . there's just no other way to describe it.

  11. #11
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    I would say another caveat is if you have a DC spell caster in the group, the neg levels will make it easier to land spells even if you're not reducing their hit points anymore.
    I've noticed this when grouping with a Pale Master last night. He would FOD every mob I was attacking after a couple neg level procs... it was pretty much no fail for him.

    Great for the group... but I have to admit, it was kind of annoying.
    Dorian

  12. #12
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    I would say another caveat is if you have a DC spell caster in the group, the neg levels will make it easier to land spells even if you're not reducing their hit points anymore.
    I've noticed this when grouping with a Pale Master last night. He would FOD every mob I was attacking after some neg level procs... it was pretty much no fail for him.

    Great for the group... but I have to admit, it was kind of annoying.
    Dorian

  13. #13
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    I actually respec'd my Khopesh rogue to use them when she finally pulled her second one. Whether you are running with DC casters (rare now, I know) or you are just working the beat-down method... that life stealing is just amazing in EE. Like Permian, I use them pretty much exclusively now in EE content.
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  14. #14
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    And also I don't know how we can calculate the DPS from a nightmare proc and failed mob save.
    Calc? Bah, trying to calc DPS post U14 is like trying to shag a hunger bear. I'm sure it could be done but it's just not worth the trouble.

    Time yourself beating on things. We typically use EE Sobrien and he'd gotten dropped in less than 20 seconds by somebody with dual-Nightmares.

    Of course the higher HP the target the more effective the Nightmare is.

  15. #15
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Livmo View Post
    On a side note, I do not have the bastard sword as a feat. I use Nightmare with the Chimera's Breath rune arm that gives me bastard sword proficiency.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Chimera%27s_Breath

    I wish there was an Epic version of Chimera's Breath!
    I never thought of that. I need to get a Chimera's Breath for my Arti Alt that I'm leveling.
    Dorian

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    wow. Great thread with the link you provided. This is the kind of info I was looking for. (been playing my caster and using energy drain all wrong)

    ... but I have to agree with Teh_Troll about the switching weapons part. Maybe get quick-draw feat and switch to drow bastard swords? (can't remember base damage of those)

    And also I don't know how we can calculate the DPS from a nightmare proc and failed mob save.
    Again, whether to switch or not depends on your dps. And, it is likely a narrow range where it is useful. If your dps is low, just stick with nightmare moon (the improved crit profile won't help you anyway). If your dps is high, you probably don't need to bother with nightmare moon at all. The exists a mid-range where switching is indeed useful, but unless you like testing things (as I do), then you probably won't know if you are in it or not.

    I don't see the save debuff as very useful. I suppose you could use it to land stunning blow, but by time you do, the mob is probably toast anyway. At any rate, improved sunder comes across as a better option. For casters, I'd just scroll enervate / cast energy drain to debuff the saves (or other spells / effects, for the specific save you are after). Maybe if you are throwing together a static group, I could see. But from my personal experience, if I want the mobs saves lower on a caster, I am just going to do it myself rather then watching to see when the melee have built enough of a debuff.

  17. #17
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Again, whether to switch or not depends on your dps. And, it is likely a narrow range where it is useful. If your dps is low, just stick with nightmare moon (the improved crit profile won't help you anyway). If your dps is high, you probably don't need to bother with nightmare moon at all. The exists a mid-range where switching is indeed useful, but unless you like testing things (as I do), then you probably won't know if you are in it or not.
    I'm using on a Helf Pally... so yes... low DPS compared to Horc Barb, Fighter, etc.
    Dorian

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I can say from experience that you're absolutely wrong.

    Having done many EEs with 4-6 TWFers swinging dual-Nightmares and just seeing the mobs evaporate before our eyes . . . there's just no other way to describe it.
    That isn't a good measure, because any good group can do that. Heck, even solo on EE I pull multiple groups of mobs on my sorc just to speed it up. If you bring 6 juggs, 6 wood woads, 6 monchers, 6 PMs, 6 sorcs, etc, you'll get the same result. So, if you claim is that a good group using a cohesive tactic can steam roll EE, even if it isn't the best tactic, your right.

    Basically, yes, if you bring a good group even using an okay tactic, you can destroy the content so fast that it stops mattering, because the time to simply run through the quest dominates the time you spend fighting. For an example, bring 6 DI sorcs you can easily just break into 2 groups of 3 and take out a pull of mobs every 15 seconds via chain energy burst (esp before they broke criticals). On occasion, cast an AoE spell to finish off the few survivors. But it means that you never stopping running, as while one team is taking out 15s worth of pulls, the other team is running and get more pulls for their set. I have done it. It is awesomely effective. That doesn't make it the best tactic, however. It merely makes it a sufficient tactic.

  19. #19
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    I've acquired a second Nightmare and switched my build to two-weapon-fighting.

    The PK proc seems to do OK if I get lucky and land a few neg levels before rolling a 20... even playing on EE difficulty. So you also should consider the insta-kill factor when comparing DPS.

    Armor-Piercing on the black dragon armor and twisting the Shadowdancer fortification bypass ability also helped with landing neg levels on higher difficulties. I thought about the precision feat... but I just can't give up power attack and the related abilities.
    Dorian

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