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  1. #21
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    From what I’ve seen, BYOH is the “traditional”, or at least the default group in DDO. It’s better than having to wait for a healer to join, but I’m not convinced that it’s usually better than leaving room for a couple healer hirelings so the rest of the group can concentrate on defeating the opponents. I guess it depends on the quest. Every moment you spend kiting around so your pots can fill your hp quicker than the opponents empty it is a moment you aren’t doing damage. Even if it’s somehow more efficient, I don’t think it’s fun. When I put up a LFM, I set the party size to four to leave room for two healer hirelings. If I get a player healer, I increase it to six. I guess that was the part where I actually address the OP’s question. If you want to be more welcoming than a “BYOH”, make it a “BYOH, and H can be a Healer Hireling.” I just wish those foolish hirelings could get through traps or at least not walk in harmful puddles. They should just make it so that if you get through a trap safely then so does your hireling. As the “stealth specialist” voice option in Neverwinter Nights says, “step where I step.”

  2. #22
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asanarama View Post
    From what I’ve seen, BYOH is the “traditional”, or at least the default group in DDO. It’s better than having to wait for a healer to join, but I’m not convinced that it’s usually better than leaving room for a couple healer hirelings so the rest of the group can concentrate on defeating the opponents. I guess it depends on the quest. Every moment you spend kiting around so your pots can fill your hp quicker than the opponents empty it is a moment you aren’t doing damage. Even if it’s somehow more efficient, I don’t think it’s fun. When I put up a LFM, I set the party size to four to leave room for two healer hirelings. If I get a player healer, I increase it to six. I guess that was the part where I actually address the OP’s question. If you want to be more welcoming than a “BYOH”, make it a “BYOH, and H can be a Healer Hireling.” I just wish those foolish hirelings could get through traps or at least not walk in harmful puddles. They should just make it so that if you get through a trap safely then so does your hireling. As the “stealth specialist” voice option in Neverwinter Nights says, “step where I step.”
    Thats the reason though that most party leaders don't like hirelings in difficult content, they're usually dead, and soon the toon that needed them will be too.

    If hireling ai wasn't worse than that of a 6 int barb jacked up on meth I don't think anyone would have a problem with them.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frotz View Post
    AFAIK, anyone can just walk around the left edge of the bridge room to get past the fire trap anyway.
    Aye, over 95% of the Traps in DDO have a way around them.
    Jump is a class skill for Favored Souls for a reason.


    If you are running BYOH ~ Mega Zerging ~ IP
    Healing Hires are likely to die, as they do not have striders, and they caught in the backwash of your turbo jets...

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asanarama View Post
    It’s better than having to wait for a healer to join, but I’m not convinced that it’s usually better than leaving room for a couple healer hirelings so the rest of the group can concentrate on defeating the opponents. I guess it depends on the quest. Every moment you spend kiting around so your pots can fill your hp quicker than the opponents empty it is a moment you aren’t doing damage. Even if it’s somehow more efficient, I don’t think it’s fun. When I put up a LFM, I set the party size to four to leave room for two healer hirelings.
    You are smart.
    With a bit of management multiple hires are extremely effective.
    Just remember things like, stay together, steamroll the dungeon,
    5 second pauses for the hires to regroup, swap AI settings when rezoning,
    and you will do great.


    Red alert kill hires.

  5. #25
    Community Member Ralmeth's Avatar
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    Op,

    If I were to read your LFM, as a vet player, I would expect to be on my own to get around the traps and to heal myself. No big deal. However, I've run low level groups through that quest more than once and you will get some newer players joining that may not know where/what the traps are. To really have an "anyone welcome" group in an elite quest with traps, I wouldn't start the quest until I knew that I had the traps covered, or if you plan on going without a trapper I would make sure that everyone knows how to bypass the trap by showing them how to do it. Perhaps a quick word of warning when he joined might have helped? "Hey there's a nasty trap at the beginning. We don't have a trapper. Do you know how to get by it?" would have been more helpful then, "we'll have to jump through the traps." He obviously tried to jump through and died because of it. Yeah, I could see that making him annoyed.
    Aryk Stoutheart, Paladin - Sarlona
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  6. #26
    Community Member DrNuegebauer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asanarama View Post
    I guess that was the part where I actually address the OP’s question. If you want to be more welcoming than a “BYOH”, make it a “BYOH, and H can be a Healer Hireling.”
    I don't mean to sound rude, but you haven't really addressed his question at all!

    He has no problem with someone joining and popping a hire. You've tangented the whole point of his question altogether.

    What he is asking is "why is it the responsibility of the party leader to provide a hireling for someone who needs one?"
    He was fine (and told them so) that if they wanted to pop a hire, they were more than welcome.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNuegebauer View Post
    I don't mean to sound rude, but you haven't really addressed his question at all!

    He has no problem with someone joining and popping a hire. You've tangented the whole point of his question altogether.

    What he is asking is "why is it the responsibility of the party leader to provide a hireling for someone who needs one?"
    He was fine (and told them so) that if they wanted to pop a hire, they were more than welcome.
    Actually, he didn't even ask "why," just "is it...?" So I guess any one who answered beyond a simple yes or no was guilty of tmi?

    Seems to me that offering suggestions on how to avoid having this problem in the future, while tangental, is still relevant to the topic.

    And to be fair, you didn't address the OPs' question either

    Quote Originally Posted by Frotz View Post
    AFAIK, anyone can just walk around the left edge of the bridge room to get past the fire trap anyway.
    I'm guessing this either wasn't communicated, or wasn't listened to.

    A shortage of both of those skills - communication & listening - have led to more forum posts, rage quits & general frustration than anything else in the game; other than possibly "Turbines (expletive)ing lack of (fill in the blank)." IMHO, ofc
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-07-2013 at 07:07 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  8. #28
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmeth View Post
    Op,

    If I were to read your LFM, as a vet player, I would expect to be on my own to get around the traps and to heal myself. No big deal. However, I've run low level groups through that quest more than once and you will get some newer players joining that may not know where/what the traps are. To really have an "anyone welcome" group in an elite quest with traps, I wouldn't start the quest until I knew that I had the traps covered, or if you plan on going without a trapper I would make sure that everyone knows how to bypass the trap by showing them how to do it. Perhaps a quick word of warning when he joined might have helped? "Hey there's a nasty trap at the beginning. We don't have a trapper. Do you know how to get by it?" would have been more helpful then, "we'll have to jump through the traps." He obviously tried to jump through and died because of it. Yeah, I could see that making him annoyed.
    Actually, I'm very helpful and patient with new players. I and the other guy killed the mobs around the bridge, and then I showed the wizard where to jump to avoid the traps. He ignored me and went jumping/hopping straight over the bridge and died.

    But, even if I hadn't explained it all to him, he could have just watched where my paladin and the barbarian jumped and then followed us. That seems pretty standard behavior for anyone in the game.

    To be honest, I'm not convinced he was a new player, anyway. He seemed to be familiar with everything, and he knew enough to know that there are some traps in that quest that a trapper can be very helpful with. Maybe he was new and had tried that quest a few times already?
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

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  9. #29
    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    I don't often make lfm's these days, but when i do, i have a hireling available.

    It's true that if you make an all welcome lfm, you should probably account for whoever might join. I generally keep a hireling on hand at all times anyway, just because they are more useful than not in my experience.

    I often would not be willing to buy a trapper hireling, but might discuss the trap situation with the group before starting. Assuming you know about potentially deadly traps ahead of course. Do we need a trapper? Can we all get by these traps? I've sold a few things on the astral shard AH, but i never buy anything there. I mostly wanted the shards to buy trapper hires to be honest.

    I suppose having a healing hire, if not necessarily required, isn't a bad idea if you are the group leader. At least if you really want to observe the spirit of all welcome.

  10. #30
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    Oops, I tried to resist posting this, but failed my will save...

    Y'all remember that "Why doesn't anyone know how to do VoN5 anymore?" thread from a little while back? A bunch of blame was heaped on the raid leader for the wipes. A common comment was "proper instruction prevents failure." When I suggested that "proper instructions are only effective if people follow them," people said that was bs.
    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    I showed the wizard where to jump to avoid the traps. He ignored me and went jumping/hopping straight over the bridge and died.
    There ya go...
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  11. #31
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    My main issue with the guy's behavior was not that he died, or that he didn't listen, or that he needed a healer.

    I didn't expect him to be self sufficient. I told him he could pop a hireling cleric if he wanted to. After indicating that he needed a healer, he said he was not going to use a hireling healer because he wanted me to provide one for him to use.

    I could somewhat understand him getting upset if we were going to three-man the quest, and he asked if he could pop a hireling cleric and I said no.


    I remember going through my fighter life with no UMD on my main. When he would join a party with no healer, I'd ask if it was okay to use a hireling. If they said yes, then I'd use one, since I was the one who needed a healer. If they said no and they were going to start anyway, I'd say "thanks anyway" and politely drop, since higher level quests and CSW pots don't go well together. I would certainly not be inclined to tell the leader that since he posted the LFM he was responsible for providing a cleric hireling to anyone who needed a healer.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    I didn't expect him to be self sufficient. I told him he could pop a hireling cleric if he wanted to. After indicating that he needed a healer, he said he was not going to use a hireling healer because he wanted me to provide one for him to use.
    I'm guessing if someone gives this guy a ride to the store, he would expect them to pay for his purchases too.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    The other day my level 6 paladin posts an LFM for Proof is in the Poison. The LFM read, “Elite for BB. All welcome. IP.”

    I had just stepped in when a human wizard joined, followed by a half-orc barbarian. The wizard asked who was going to do the traps, and I told him unless a trapper joined we’d have to jump through the traps. He said, and I quote, “That’s stupid.” I told him he could use a hireling if he wanted, and he said that’s not his job because he’s not the party leader.

    He then asked who was going to be healing. I said that unless a healer joined, we’d be chugging pots. He said that was even “stupider” than not having a trapper. I told him he could use a hireling if he wanted to, and he said if it was his LFM that’s what he’d do. Bear in mind, this is all within seconds of stepping into the quest.

    The wizard died in the fire traps on the bridge. I told him he could just recall and step back in, since the shrine was a long way off. He repeated how “stupid” this all was and ragequit.

    The barbarian and I finished the quest with no hirelings.

    When I join someone else’s group, I don’t assume it’s their job to provide me with a trapper and healer. If I need healing, I’ll ask if I can pop a hireling. If I can’t time the traps and there’s no other way to get by them, I’ll ask if I can use a hireling or I’ll just say “thanks anyway” and politely drop group. Not all of my characters can jump through traps and survive. Around the same time I was running Proof is in the Poison, I also ran Repossession and the Bookbinder Rescue. When I post for those, I plan to use a rogue hireling if a trapper doesn’t join. I had actually just popped a rogue hireling when an arty joined the group, so that hireling was kind of wasted, but, meh.

    What’s the consensus for the responsibility of a party leader, especially in a low level quest? Does he have to provide hireling healers and hireling trappers if none join the group?
    you did fine, he was an i d i o t or a newb coming from other game.
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...te-Threat-Gear

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  14. #34
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    nm
    Last edited by Talon_Moonshadow; 02-07-2014 at 12:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  15. #35
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    How many souls of dead noobs in PiiTP did it cost to raise this thread?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #36
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    The other day my level 6 paladin posts an LFM for Proof is in the Poison. The LFM read, “Elite for BB. All welcome. IP.”

    I had just stepped in when a human wizard joined, followed by a half-orc barbarian. The wizard asked who was going to do the traps, and I told him unless a trapper joined we’d have to jump through the traps. He said, and I quote, “That’s stupid.” I told him he could use a hireling if he wanted, and he said that’s not his job because he’s not the party leader.

    He then asked who was going to be healing. I said that unless a healer joined, we’d be chugging pots. He said that was even “stupider” than not having a trapper. I told him he could use a hireling if he wanted to, and he said if it was his LFM that’s what he’d do. Bear in mind, this is all within seconds of stepping into the quest.

    The wizard died in the fire traps on the bridge. I told him he could just recall and step back in, since the shrine was a long way off. He repeated how “stupid” this all was and ragequit.

    The barbarian and I finished the quest with no hirelings.

    When I join someone else’s group, I don’t assume it’s their job to provide me with a trapper and healer. If I need healing, I’ll ask if I can pop a hireling. If I can’t time the traps and there’s no other way to get by them, I’ll ask if I can use a hireling or I’ll just say “thanks anyway” and politely drop group. Not all of my characters can jump through traps and survive. Around the same time I was running Proof is in the Poison, I also ran Repossession and the Bookbinder Rescue. When I post for those, I plan to use a rogue hireling if a trapper doesn’t join. I had actually just popped a rogue hireling when an arty joined the group, so that hireling was kind of wasted, but, meh.

    What’s the consensus for the responsibility of a party leader, especially in a low level quest? Does he have to provide hireling healers and hireling trappers if none join the group?
    Your responsibility in this case would be to boot the wizard before he makes it in the quest and save yourself some trouble.
    The blade itself incites to deeds of violence.
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  17. #37
    Community Member pHo3nix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    Before you have pulled the levers, the NPCs are dead on that quest. At least on Elite.
    Soloed the quest many times at lvl without trapping skills...i always completed, if not on the 1st, on the 2nd try. So no, NPC don't always die on traps, they usually don't.
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    How many souls of dead noobs in PiiTP did it cost to raise this thread?
    with the enhancement pass you can now be an undead necromancer at just lvl3! ok you can't self heal, but i'm sure it's made thread necromancy that much more accessible.
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  19. #39
    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harry-pancreas View Post
    you did fine, he was an i d i o t or a newb coming from other game.
    Only 8 months. This thread had not yet putrified to proper necro specifications.

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  20. #40
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    I herewith declare this Thread to be 100% necroed.

    Good guys, the discussion is way over dead. Why making this topic a Zombie?

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