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  1. #1
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Default Party leader must provide hirelings?

    The other day my level 6 paladin posts an LFM for Proof is in the Poison. The LFM read, “Elite for BB. All welcome. IP.”

    I had just stepped in when a human wizard joined, followed by a half-orc barbarian. The wizard asked who was going to do the traps, and I told him unless a trapper joined we’d have to jump through the traps. He said, and I quote, “That’s stupid.” I told him he could use a hireling if he wanted, and he said that’s not his job because he’s not the party leader.

    He then asked who was going to be healing. I said that unless a healer joined, we’d be chugging pots. He said that was even “stupider” than not having a trapper. I told him he could use a hireling if he wanted to, and he said if it was his LFM that’s what he’d do. Bear in mind, this is all within seconds of stepping into the quest.

    The wizard died in the fire traps on the bridge. I told him he could just recall and step back in, since the shrine was a long way off. He repeated how “stupid” this all was and ragequit.

    The barbarian and I finished the quest with no hirelings.

    When I join someone else’s group, I don’t assume it’s their job to provide me with a trapper and healer. If I need healing, I’ll ask if I can pop a hireling. If I can’t time the traps and there’s no other way to get by them, I’ll ask if I can use a hireling or I’ll just say “thanks anyway” and politely drop group. Not all of my characters can jump through traps and survive. Around the same time I was running Proof is in the Poison, I also ran Repossession and the Bookbinder Rescue. When I post for those, I plan to use a rogue hireling if a trapper doesn’t join. I had actually just popped a rogue hireling when an arty joined the group, so that hireling was kind of wasted, but, meh.

    What’s the consensus for the responsibility of a party leader, especially in a low level quest? Does he have to provide hireling healers and hireling trappers if none join the group?
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    The other day my level 6 paladin posts ...I said that unless a healer joined, we’d be chugging pots.
    Level six quests can do with guild cure serious potions.
    He said that was even “stupider” than not having a trapper.
    A new account has no resources and can barely afford anything.
    Shrug it off, let him, he will learn and get more plat soon enough.

  3. #3
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    If the player was unprepared for the quest for whatever reason, he is welcome to go join another group or do it on a lower difficulty. It's my opinion that the leader is not responsible for bringing anything to the group that other members could bring themselves including, healing, buffs, a good attitude, quest knowledge or general gaming experience. This player in question seemed to lack in all those areas and expected the leader to pick up their slack. It's for the best that he left. I don't mean this in a heavily negative way, but that group was not for him. He has some learning to do... or not. Either way, he will be happier with another set of players or he'll eventually move on to another game while blaming the community here for his shortcomings.
    Kaarloe - Degenerate Matter - Argonnessen

  4. #4
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    For higher level quests... I think you should put BYOH in LFM if you are not going with a traditional group.

    For low level stuff... I would not worry about it.
    Dorian

  5. #5
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Of course the PL must provide the hirelings.

    Also if I am playing an arcane I expect the Leader to be providing pots. If I am a Divine that is pots AND scrolls as well. I mean if you REALLY want to cheap out you can buy a couple of wands instead of pots on the divine but I am gonna call you on that.



    /sarcasm

    Just in case it's not clear, obviously you grouped with someone who needs to end up on your friends list with a "avoid this guy" note thrown down.

    Leaders providing hirelings... this makes me laugh as in the vast majority of groups popping a hire gets you yelled at! LOL

    For what it's worth I would have passed him the star and told him to go to town!


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    What’s the consensus for the responsibility of a party leader, especially in a low level quest? Does he have to provide hireling healers and hireling trappers if none join the group?
    You are running a quest that you can happily solo. You are allowing people the opportunity to join you and gained the XP and favour from a quest that you could happily solo. That is the start and end of your responsibility.

    Squelch the wizard and move on, he's clearly a moron.

  7. #7
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    Well, I'm pretty sure the majority of the player base - and especially the portion that participates in the forums - will that the "party leader" has no real obligation to do anything beyond assembling an appropriate party. For instance, if you post for Bookbinder, and fill all 6 party slots with no one capable of traps, then you've made a mistake. Party members can survive traps, npcs can't. That's really about it.

    Obviously, since you had the conversation you did with that wizzy, there are exceptions to that (general) rule.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by PermaBanned View Post
    Well, I'm pretty sure the majority of the player base - and especially the portion that participates in the forums - will that the "party leader" has no real obligation to do anything beyond assembling an appropriate party. For instance, if you post for Bookbinder, and fill all 6 party slots with no one capable of traps, then you've made a mistake. Party members can survive traps, npcs can't. That's really about it.

    Obviously, since you had the conversation you did with that wizzy, there are exceptions to that (general) rule.
    In Bookbinder, you can just pull the lever inside each room to disable the traps.

  9. #9
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    What’s the consensus for the responsibility of a party leader, especially in a low level quest? Does he have to provide hireling healers and hireling trappers if none join the group?
    It might've been nice if you had included "byoh" in the LFM. A lot of newbs still approach DDO like a traditional MMO, in terms of everyone slipping into comfortable roles; they may assume you plan to run a traditional party unless you tell them otherwise. And I wouldn't say "all welcome" unless you really mean anybody is welcome - inc. people who aren't self-sufficient, don't know the quests, have bad builds or poor gear, etc.

    Otherwise, I don't consider the party leader responsible for everyone else's survival or success; only for laying the parameters for how the quest will be run.

  10. #10
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    The other day my level 6 paladin posts an LFM for Proof is in the Poison. The LFM read, “Elite for BB. All welcome. IP.”

    I had just stepped in when a human wizard joined, followed by a half-orc barbarian. The wizard asked who was going to do the traps, and I told him unless a trapper joined we’d have to jump through the traps. He said, and I quote, “That’s stupid.” I told him he could use a hireling if he wanted, and he said that’s not his job because he’s not the party leader.

    He then asked who was going to be healing. I said that unless a healer joined, we’d be chugging pots. He said that was even “stupider” than not having a trapper. I told him he could use a hireling if he wanted to, and he said if it was his LFM that’s what he’d do. Bear in mind, this is all within seconds of stepping into the quest.

    The wizard died in the fire traps on the bridge. I told him he could just recall and step back in, since the shrine was a long way off. He repeated how “stupid” this all was and ragequit.

    The barbarian and I finished the quest with no hirelings.

    When I join someone else’s group, I don’t assume it’s their job to provide me with a trapper and healer. If I need healing, I’ll ask if I can pop a hireling. If I can’t time the traps and there’s no other way to get by them, I’ll ask if I can use a hireling or I’ll just say “thanks anyway” and politely drop group. Not all of my characters can jump through traps and survive. Around the same time I was running Proof is in the Poison, I also ran Repossession and the Bookbinder Rescue. When I post for those, I plan to use a rogue hireling if a trapper doesn’t join. I had actually just popped a rogue hireling when an arty joined the group, so that hireling was kind of wasted, but, meh.

    What’s the consensus for the responsibility of a party leader, especially in a low level quest? Does he have to provide hireling healers and hireling trappers if none join the group?
    I believe you just hit upon the primary reason I solo quests through the harbor. There are exceptions, but they are rare nowadays. When things will go smoother or faster in lowbie quests, I will post things that you've made clear you don't care for in lfm's. But I haven't had to deal with an issue like you've posted since making that decision. Joining another person's run is different, and I have seen it there however...

    The problem isn't so much the new guy who joined your lfm with expectations mirroring their experiences playing other games. The problem is that you are in position to be self sufficient, but are posting all welcome runs without accounting for the those who are not.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    In Bookbinder, you can just pull the lever inside each room to disable the traps.
    Before you have pulled the levers, the NPCs are dead on that quest. At least on Elite.

  12. #12
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taurean430 View Post
    I believe you just hit upon the primary reason I solo quests through the harbor. There are exceptions, but they are rare nowadays. When things will go smoother or faster in lowbie quests, I will post things that you've made clear you don't care for in lfm's. But I haven't had to deal with an issue like you've posted since making that decision. Joining another person's run is different, and I have seen it there however...

    The problem isn't so much the new guy who joined your lfm with expectations mirroring their experiences playing other games. The problem is that you are in position to be self sufficient, but are posting all welcome runs without accounting for the those who are not.
    I was looking at it more as though he actually was welcome. I didn't expect him to be self-sufficient. I told him he could use a hireling cleric, but he didn't want to because he thought I should provide one for him. After he died, I told him he was free to release, heal up in a tavern, and re-enter. I also said I would just tote his soulstone, but that it was a long time to the shrine and he'd probably prefer to release and re-enter. He chose to ragequit instead.

    I don't think "All welcome" is the same as posting "Must be self-sufficient." I think it is really the opposite. I didn't care if he wanted to use a hireling. I didn't care if he died. I didn't care if he released and re-entered. I don't know how much more welcoming I could have been.
    All on Thelanis: Archenpaul Sixblade, Archernicus Thornwood, Gregorovic Redcloak, Hermanius Brightblade, Jaklomeo Evermug, Jonathraxius Kane, and Praetoreus Silvershield.

    Cogito ergo summopere periculosus.

  13. #13
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    I was looking at it more as though he actually was welcome. I didn't expect him to be self-sufficient. I told him he could use a hireling cleric, but he didn't want to because he thought I should provide one for him. After he died, I told him he was free to release, heal up in a tavern, and re-enter. I also said I would just tote his soulstone, but that it was a long time to the shrine and he'd probably prefer to release and re-enter. He chose to ragequit instead.

    I don't think "All welcome" is the same as posting "Must be self-sufficient." I think it is really the opposite. I didn't care if he wanted to use a hireling. I didn't care if he died. I didn't care if he released and re-entered. I don't know how much more welcoming I could have been.
    How about providing a cradle and some milk?

  14. #14
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    I may have a different opinion than most on what is and is not the role of a PL

    1. A PL is responsible for Party assembly - Their criteria is there own. It could be as simple as 1st 5 that are level appropriate it does ot mater

    2. A PL is responsible for setting the pace of the quest - Zerg to flower sniffer and weather or not optional objectives will be completed

    3. It is the PLs role to attempt to put a team together that has a chance to succeed based on their goals of the quest but that again goes back to the first role - I.E. it might not be a good idea to bring a level 1 wizard into a level 9 quest on Elite and expect them to be good Crowd Control {Extreme but makes a point}

    4. It is the PLs role to make sure everyone knows the plan and goals

    5. It is the PLs role to make sure everyone in their group knows how to bypass traps or objectives - example in Proof knowing that you can jump to ledges on the left side of the bridge and totally bypass the fire trap.

    ------------------
    It is the players responsibility to decide if they are willing to run the quest as the PL has outlined, hitting the "Pick Me" option by all means does not constitute a contract that you cannot leave if you "don't play that way"

    In this particular example I think the signals that got missed were:
    1. In Progress
    2. That neither a Rogue or Cleric/FvS/Bard/Druid was in the party and yet the quest was being run

    As a party member it is ok to ask if you can make up for a deficiency it is not ok to just do it as you don't know if you will be taking up someone else's slot.

    Bottom line a party leader can choose to bring or not to bring a hire to fill any needs in the party. It is ultimately their decision.

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    It's just stupid that you didn't have an evasion healer trapper ready for him.

  16. #16
    Community Member taurean430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    I was looking at it more as though he actually was welcome. I didn't expect him to be self-sufficient. I told him he could use a hireling cleric, but he didn't want to because he thought I should provide one for him. After he died, I told him he was free to release, heal up in a tavern, and re-enter. I also said I would just tote his soulstone, but that it was a long time to the shrine and he'd probably prefer to release and re-enter. He chose to ragequit instead.

    I don't think "All welcome" is the same as posting "Must be self-sufficient." I think it is really the opposite. I didn't care if he wanted to use a hireling. I didn't care if he died. I didn't care if he released and re-entered. I don't know how much more welcoming I could have been.
    I'm not saying you did anything wrong. Your expectations as you described them were pretty clear.

    I'm only saying that when you are in a position to be self sufficient and doing so it's very easy to forget the other perspective. In the case you described the Wiz was pretty much defenseless by way of lack of metagame and quest knowledge. I'd wager that he fully expected to be able to blast mobs continuously without concern for his character status. His health status would have been covered by another player. Hazards on the map would have been covered by another player, etc... At the Harbor level, it's darn near impossible to educate many players on what works in this game. So; while you provided that player an opportunity to experience failure by way of non preparedness, he didn't learn anything save you are a big mean ****yhead.

    What you describe regarding not minding players using hirelings and such is fine, but at slightly higher levels. By then players should be starting to catch on to their weaknesses and finding ways to overcome them. Unfortunately, at the harbor level it's a whole different ball game.
    Khyber: Evandus, Halfdeadd, Licoricewhip, Sawyn, Elkabongg, Brothanumsi, Soulbro, Cromix.
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  17. #17
    Founder THAC0's Avatar
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    Just pass the star next time. That is just plain silly. Are you supposed to pay for everyones repair bill at the end too?....

    Geez....

    ;-)

  18. #18
    Community Member Qhualor's Avatar
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    you can avoid the traps easily. stick to the wall after pulling the lever down bottom. you can run along the ledge and jump over to the doorway to avoid the fire trap on the bridge. no trapper needed. what I do when I solo with a hire is park the hire at the doorway while I drop down to pull the lever. that way the hire doesn't run through the trap down bottom and run through the fire, but he will follow you if you keep telling him to follow when you run along the ledge as well.

    its the party leaders responsibility to bring a hire only if he wants heals and no healers are joining. you can ask me to bring a hire, which is usually the case if im a higher level, but I joined knowing their might not be a healer. otherwise it should be assumed its team play and pot chugging. theres no xp penalty if players who don't want to be self sufficient and recall out so someone else can join that doesn't mind pot chugging or a party leader approved hire.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    The wizard died in the fire traps on the bridge. I told him he could just recall and step back in, since the shrine was a long way off.
    Please don't encourage this sort of behavior.

    As a Party Leader it would my responsibility to Auto Boot anyone doing such actions,
    with the slim exception of Epic Elite for Loot.


    As a Party leader, I try to provide a certain amount of support because I want the quest to go smoothly.
    Lol, once a new comer asked me, "Why are Thistle and Frenzy following me?"
    I replied so you can explore the quest with confidence.

    The permanent hire Thistle with Druid past lifes along with permanent Owlbear,
    provided me with a fighter / divine combo hire package when needed while boxing out these final lives.

    Even I hesitate to pull a rogue hire as that cost Real Life money...

  20. #20
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    AFAIK, anyone can just walk around the left edge of the bridge room to get past the fire trap anyway.

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