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  1. #1
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default A Short Rant About Favored Souls and Bows, With Suggestions

    The Silver Flame faith's favored weapon in DDO is the longbow. Honestly, that was a bad idea to begin with. Not only is ranged combat feat-intensive, but dexterity, which modifiers to-hit rolls for bows, doesn't have much use for a favored soul. Now, I could take at least two levels of monk for evasion and the Zen Archery feat, but then I run into another problem... wisdom is an FvS's main casting stat, in that it raises spell DCs! If I can cast spells with reliable DCs, who do I need a bow at all?

    This is by no means the most important issue in DDO. I just dislike useless things like sickles (basically the same as kamas), ranger summons in epic quests and the Repair skill on non-warforged fighters.

    Suggestions:

    1) Add a PrE for Silver Flame favored souls that allows them to use charisma for to-hit rolls with longbows. I imagine this as a divine version of Arcane Archer (but not a carbon copy, I hope). Maybe throw in bow strength, or something similar, as a bonus feat or enhancement.

    2) Add Spears to the game, and make them the Silver Flame's favored weapon instead. Iirc, spears are one of the preferred weapons of the Silver Flame faith in PnP.

  2. #2
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    Hmmm I think better DCs (Wisdom) is still better than more SP (Charisma). And actually a DC build works well combined with range. But... is it worth gimping your casting to boost your range, that I can't answer with accurate numbers.
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  3. #3
    Community Member PermaBanned's Avatar
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    I don't think the decision was based on making FS a high dps bow user, Rangers & Fighters (not to mention monkchers) own that department. I did find the bow to be quite usefull on my FS - as a supplement to casting ability. Cursespewing of Shattermantal (and later their imp. versions) as a precursor to spells on difficult mobs was quite helpful - and as you can't masters touch* a two-handed weapon, getting the proficiency was handy. Now if I could just find one with a red slot...

    Edit: *from a scroll
    Last edited by PermaBanned; 06-05-2013 at 08:42 PM.
    Now excuse me while I wander off to arm myself with Grilled Cheese Sandwiches and hunker down behind my Armored Beer Refrigerator, while I have the UFO's take control of the Congresional Wives with the help of the International Cocaine Smugglers and the Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow - btw, do you have change for 10 million population?

  4. #4
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    But aren't the healers suppose to stand in the back? {just kidding}

    You are looking at it all wrong. What you are seeing as useless to you, may not be useless to others.

    Example: Repair might be valuable to a player that has taken the Iron Defender Enhancement lines because they enjoy having a summon on a non-caster. It might not be the optimal to the powergammers but that doesn't make is useless.

    You are right it does take feats to make Bows effective. But I have a very effective caster FvS that has all three Dragon Marks for Half-Elf. So I imagine if someone wanted to 3 feats for bows could happen.

  5. #5
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    The Silver Flame faith's favored weapon in DDO is the longbow. Honestly, that was a bad idea to begin with. Not only is ranged combat feat-intensive, but dexterity, which modifiers to-hit rolls for bows, doesn't have much use for a favored soul. Now, I could take at least two levels of monk for evasion and the Zen Archery feat, but then I run into another problem... wisdom is an FvS's main casting stat, in that it raises spell DCs! If I can cast spells with reliable DCs, who do I need a bow at all?

    This is by no means the most important issue in DDO. I just dislike useless things like sickles (basically the same as kamas), ranger summons in epic quests and the Repair skill on non-warforged fighters.

    Suggestions:

    1) Add a PrE for Silver Flame favored souls that allows them to use charisma for to-hit rolls with longbows. I imagine this as a divine version of Arcane Archer (but not a carbon copy, I hope). Maybe throw in bow strength, or something similar, as a bonus feat or enhancement.

    2) Add Spears to the game, and make them the Silver Flame's favored weapon instead. Iirc, spears are one of the preferred weapons of the Silver Flame faith in PnP.
    I disagree, I have a 20 FvS AA, and no matter what else I build it's the most fun character I've played, granted the bow portion of that is a sideshow to the main capabilities, but it IS a useful sideshow. She uses Avenging Light and Searing Light SLA's (3sp and 0sp costs) maxed and empowered and quickened and of course Divine Punishment DOT's. during the cooldowns of the spells she's firing a bow with a 17-20 x3 crit range, that often hits for 200+ crits which supplements the light spells which (pre spell power bug) were critting for 1500 WITHOUT my desired ED's, and also without Superior lore (working on that). Now I understand that a Sorc is not impressed with my nuking, and a Monkcher is not impressed with my Ranged, but neither of them are main healing either so it's a fine balance that at least for me gives me and my active playstyle something to do that synergizes MUCH better than trying to melee and heal at the same time (tends to get you tripped and your raid wiped, I know this character was melee specced before the bow).

    In truth Quicken Max and Empower are all the Meta's you need to heal effectively, and it so happens that these also make Light spell spamming fun and useful especially when they are free on the SLA's. I've tried non-arcane archer, using Bow STR to boost per hit damage, using crafted holy arrows with my crafter to give to the FvS and that works as well (though it's not for the poor = 40k a night in good essence costs for about a 1500 stack of holy arrows) . I mention this because occasionally I run out of arrows and can only use the light spells, at which point I really feel the lack of damage during cool downs.

    Of course I can fill the cooldowns by spamming non SLA searing light and Nimbus, but that goes through SP, so I only do that when the shrines are plentiful and I know I'm not going to leave the party hanging for heals. With the ranged, I'm using none, and with the SLA's I'm using so little that I can keep firing in rhythm when I run out of SP with only echo's of power giving me mana. Between Elf, and FvS there's a fair amount of extra bow damage. The synergy between doing Light spell damage (capstone of Silver Flame) and filling the cooldowns with 50-250 damage bow shots is hard express using text. But there's Elf bow damage, FvS bow damage, Zen archery (don't need monk to take Zen archery) with a mid 40's Wis that also gets Implosions off decently (not as much as a mid 50's Wis multi TR I've run with who can implode just about anything short of EE, but it's still quite useful).

    TLDR: Bow, multiple light spell SLA's + wings + Blade Barriers + full raid healing = fun character to play.

  6. #6
    Community Member sunseeker's Avatar
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    LOL

    I play a FvS that uses a bow and its HEAPs of fun. Zen Archery lets my wisdom score hits and the half elf ranger dilly lets some of my Str do damage. I have many shot, IPS, Quicken, Max and Empower. Like Iron_clan I use Avenging Light and Searing light capstone as my primary attacks and the bow when stuff is too far. I many shot hallways and use the shiradi stuff like dance and pin on nearly everything. Nerve toxin and the stances work on all my bow attacks, archon and all my spells. I use sense weakness with all these control options to increase the damage oh my spells, nearly everything I'm attacking is, or will become helpless. Archon + Bow(many shot+IPS) + searing light + avenging light here and there... only a matter of time.

    Having said all that tho its mostly about the light spells. Bow damage is pretty miserable on its own in EE. When you consider how much damage a ranger can do or even someone who can AFFORD bow strength. Then put that against how much HP EE mobs have and this configuration is very underpowered. FvS and bow are generally not a high DPS combination, they do alright and are lots of fun, very engaging and somewhat survivable, no less so then most builds. They do however spend very few resources on damaging mobs and has an impressive CC potential even in EE using the shiradi destiny.

    all in all I'd have to say the most important thing about playing a Favored Soul is UNDERSTAND YOUR ARCHON!!!
    Last edited by sunseeker; 06-06-2013 at 04:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunseeker View Post
    LOL
    I have many shot, IPS, Quicken, Max and Empower.
    So you totally have got :
    Point Blank, Rapid shot, Precise, Improved Precise, Manyshot, Quicken, Max, Emp. That's 8, 1 too many.
    You don't have toughness or emp heal. What are your epic feats ?

  8. #8
    Community Member visibleman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    The Silver Flame faith's favored weapon in DDO is the longbow.
    Agree, its not ideal.

    But for once, it is not Turbine's bad decision. Blame Keith Baker for this one.
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  9. #9
    Hero Hellllboy's Avatar
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    I have to agree with the lack of usefulness on the Long Bow as a DPS. Im not quite sure that DPS was what they had in mind with this. I would envision a ranged player to be more "tactical" and less "How fast can I mow someone down".

    I capped a Ranged Human FvS and TR'd him quickly. I rarely used the bow-just for stuff from a distance. Spells pretty much picked off all close range bad guys.

    This was prolly one of my least enjoyed past lives.

  10. #10
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    So you totally have got :
    Point Blank, Rapid shot, Precise, Improved Precise, Manyshot, Quicken, Max, Emp. That's 8, 1 too many.
    You don't have toughness or emp heal. What are your epic feats ?
    Did I miss where he said his FvS was pure? Or what race? What do you mean too many? There's a minimum of 9 feats from 1 to 25 in the game, 10 if human.

    Empower healing is not particularly needed on a FvS with 3000+ SP, who has Maximize. Toughness he has room for with 9 feats. I raid heal and have solo healed elite Shrouds without empower healing feat, just quickened Heal, Maxed/Quickened Cure critical, and Maxed/Quickened Mass's don't even slot Mass Heal spell, too damn slow even when it's quickened I always feel like I lucked out if it gets off without someone dieing first. I know it's just a feeling but it's too slow for my playstyle (maybe I'm just not hjeal bot enough to get the timing perfect) I do not like to grit my teeth while the animation is simulating spell casting in molasses.

    I'm going to drop toughness feat on a melee character soon, because the 23 Hp's +30 class enhancements + 20 race enhancements for a total of 73hp, is just not worth the feat, or the 9 AP's on a character with 1200 hps... It's just overkill and a waste of opportunity cost; 1127hp here I come. Now that said my Elf FvS AA has Toughness, that one needs every hp she can get at 500+ (She's actually currently Bow strength specced to check that out, will probably go back to AA when the enhancement pass screws her up to the point that I have to respec, and also frees up a feat (no more toughness feat needed for enhancement lines))

    There's more than one way to skin a cat in this game, pardon the expression, the guy who hated having a ranged healer, it might not be his cup of tea, my FvS was melee specced first go round... hated it, hated having my thumb up my butt when "serious healing" was needed, and being in the melee pile is just irresponsible to the group you're in. Some people love melee souls, to each their own...

    Ultimately that sums it up, if you don't like the ranged spec FvS option you have what 5 others including a two handed sword war forged option? Or just ignore that stuff like most people do and build what you want.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HatsuharuZ View Post
    The Silver Flame faith's favored weapon in DDO is the longbow. Honestly, that was a bad idea to begin with.
    Well its part of the Eberron core rules http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Silver_Flame

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    In any game with meaningful character choices there has to exist some choices that are not actually very good. Otherwise there isn't actual choice, just different flavors of predefined paths that you can choose from. And as is evident from the responses in this thread already, while an archer FvS may not actually perform very well several people are quite happy with their builds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Did I miss where he said his FvS was pure? Or what race?
    Yes, you did.
    Quote Originally Posted by sunseeker View Post
    half elf ranger dilly, and Searing light capstone
    What do you mean too many? There's a minimum of 9 feats from 1 to 25 in the game, 10 if human.
    That's why I asked about their epic feats.
    Last edited by Veles; 06-06-2013 at 01:42 PM. Reason: nevermind

  14. #14
    Community Member sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    So you totally have got :
    Point Blank, Rapid shot, Precise, Improved Precise, Manyshot, Quicken, Max, Emp. That's 8, 1 too many.
    You don't have toughness or emp heal. What are your epic feats ?
    I don't have Empower Healing cus I'm not a healer. I let my groups know this and I don't have toughness cus I suck. lol (not enough feats/free AP to make it worth my while) I ended up with 540 HP at level 25. I hate being a "glass canon" but it really just means my wings get a nice work out.

    Half Elf: Ranger Dilettante (Legend) sorc x3 wiz x3 fvs x3 ranger x2 monk x2

    lvl 1: Maximize

    lvl 3: Zen Archery

    lvl 6: Point Blank Shot

    lvl 9: Rapid Shot

    lvl 12: Many Shot

    lvl 15: Quicken

    lvl 18: Empower

    lvl 21: Precise Shot

    lvl 23: Improved Precise Shot

    Some people are saying that ranged Divines will be screwed up in the enhancement pass, I don't know about them but if its anything like the alpha mine will be better then ever.

    In the alpha the AoV line for the most part seemed unchanged as far as functionality goes. There was some counter things added and a chance to proc temporary SP with looked pretty neat. Still had the Archon and Searing light capstone. In its top tiers it was able to add MCL to some spells at a steep cost but I would take it. I was not gonna spend AP to have the option to forget to use the crown tho, that thing is too tough to remember to use.

    With the changes to the AA line I could qualify for it. The gain seemed pretty decent, endless arrows, one maybe 2 core feats, dispelling shot and shatter mantle shot, which I fell in love with. Temp SP for fired arrows and a bonus to wisdom score.

    I was however very impressed with the work they did to the elf line. With the addition of "Grace" and the final tier of "Eleven Weapon Training" it seems like my half elf could become an elf and gain +8 damage, give up Zen Archery and maintain nearly the same attack bonuses, while gaining a Prof. with Long Swords and Rapiers and the entangle spell. With the extra feat I'd pick up either IC ranged or spell focus evocation/necromancy to open the ED stuff. I have no clue what to get at lvl 27.

    I brought my build to lama land during the alpha and tested it and it wasn't very different from what we had on live I'm really looking forward to changes to toughness (a feat I couldn't fit in) and seeing how it'll work out as an elf.

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    If I were to rank the classes in order of which were most in need of improvement, favored soul would be pretty close to the bottom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    If I were to rank the classes in order of which were most in need of improvement, favored soul would be pretty close to the bottom.
    Mind if I ask you, while that's absolutely true in heroics/epic hard, do you have any epic elite experience ?
    Because casting fvs is pretty much non contributor in u 16/GH these days ( among other DC casters ).
    "Hjeal bad melee groups to victory" is option I admit.

    Really, please, someone post a vid / SS ( no, Impossible Demands doesn't count ) and I'll eat my words.

  17. #17
    Community Member sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qaliya View Post
    If I were to rank the classes in order of which were most in need of improvement, favored soul would be pretty close to the bottom.
    Bards IMO would be at the top of that list, and yet nearly every update seemed to get looked over /shrug.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    Mind if I ask you, while that's absolutely true in heroics/epic hard, do you have any epic elite experience ?
    Because casting fvs is pretty much non contributor in u 16/GH these days ( among other DC casters ).
    "Hjeal bad melee groups to victory" is option I admit.

    Really, please, someone post a vid / SS ( no, Impossible Demands doesn't count ) and I'll eat my words.
    Most DC casters aren't doing much EE giant hold. I'm not sure its far to say FvS are that far behind they just have fewer options spell wise vs mobs.

  18. #18
    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    But...I like my favored soul with a bow. Don't nerf please!

    For those of you wondering, yes my casting blows. I just suck it up, it was a decision I made when I created the character. I didn't want to do a bunch of sorcerer and wizard past lives to become a decent caster, and maxing out my wisdom, and that's the only way you can get a good favored soul caster in many of the EE quests.

    So I miss out on instakills. I miss out on spell CC...however, shiradi has more than enough to make up for that one. My blade barriers and other offensive spells to half damage almost every time, but also get shiradi procs to help out, and my bow more than makes up for the 200 damage I lose on a blade barrier. I can easily get that in the 2-3 shots I fire while kiting through, and manyshotting it's not even funny.

    My divine punishment and heals are unaffected by everything except spell power, which I have as much of as any favored soul, still having access to the same gear (outside of weapon slot) and enhancements.

    You can make archery viable on any class, but be prepared to either multiclass up to 4 or so levels or lose out on some fun feats. I did the former, and have 17 favored soul levels, but I also have arcane archer, bow strength, improved crit, manyshot, IPS, precision and all the prerequisites necessary for them. Pretty much all the feats an archer ranger or fighter would have, besides overwhelming critical. I also have quicken, maximize and toughness (which hopefully will be replaced by combat archery if it ever starts working for regular bows, and I'm hoping it's around the same time as the enhancement pass so losing toughness won't hurt as much).

  19. #19
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    Mind if I ask you, while that's absolutely true in heroics/epic hard, do you have any epic elite experience ?
    Because casting fvs is pretty much non contributor in u 16/GH these days ( among other DC casters ).
    "Hjeal bad melee groups to victory" is option I admit.

    Really, please, someone post a vid / SS ( no, Impossible Demands doesn't count ) and I'll eat my words.
    Lol are you serious? Who cares if you eat your words? Your opinion seems removed enough from the game I play, that it can safely be dismissed out of hand as either inexperienced, sheltered by only playing in "elite raiding guilds" (aka people who are afraid of pugs heheh) or just boa****l forum BS'ing.

    Until you see multitudes of nearly full groups every night that will sit for hours waiting for your Shiradi caster; try to keep "contributions" in perspective eh?

    I love how whenever someone posts a video of a build soloing EE, everyone that watches it, and makes a cookie cutter build off it, puffs their chests up and calls everything else Gimp not singling you out, its a forum thing that just doesn't exist in the game.

  20. #20
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    I don't have Shiradi caster.

    What are class/builds forums/posts for then according to you ? Advice how to build "stronger",better toons, or litanies and walls of text about flavour builds, which do not matter at all ? Because EVERYTHING is viable in heroics/epic hard.

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