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  1. #1
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    Default Epic True Reincarnation

    WARNING: This post contains wild speculation. The OP makes no apology for this and any further wild speculation on the part of the reader.

    The only official word we've had on this is

    Quote Originally Posted by Glin View Post
    Later in the year we have some other great stories planned and we plan to focus our attention on the True Reincarnation options and update the system to work for Epic level players. Epic True Reincarnation would also introduce a new completionist track. What would two more stat points do to your TR character? Well, stay tuned this summer for an update on our development progress!
    So the wild speculation is what is the purpose of Epic True Reincarnation? What problems could it be designed to solve, or what benefits could it be designed to provide? And how much tinfoil hattery can I get out of the quote from Producer Glin.

    Here are some possibilities that I've thought about
    • Epic TR is designed to provide a platform for people to play solely in Epic Levels from 20 to 28 extending the life of the Epic content to create a new Endgame option for players
    • Epic TR will retain your Heroic XP and reset your Epic XP.
    • Epic TR will only be available when capped at level 28.
    • Epic TR will reset first-time completion and repetition penalties for all Epic quests.
    • Epic TR will retain any Hard or Elite streaks at the time of TR
    • At the moment, we already retain all ED XP when we Heroic TR, Epic TR will retain your Heroic XP but reset your Epic XP and reset your ED XP.
    • At the moment, when you Heroic TR you gain a Past Life Feat based on your dominant class, Epic TR will provide an Epic Past Life Feat based on a having a capped ED active when you Epic TR.
    • Heroic TR is based on your dominant class, Epic TR will be based on your dominant destiny.
    • Epic TR will require an Epic True Druidic Heart of Wood, requiring 20 Heroic Commendations or 20 Greater Tokens of the Twelve (or purchased from the DDO Store).
    • Epic Past Life Feats will stack up to 3 times similiar to the Heroic Past Life Feats
    • A new feat Epic Completionist will be granted providing the +2 Stat boost quoted when you have gained an Epic Past Life for every destiny.


    So the conjecture is based on the assumption that we have a model for Heroic TRing and it would be logical that the system for Epic TRing would roughly follow this. Turbine is extending the Epic game and needs a way to prolong player interest in this as a new optional Endgame. We need a way to reset first time bonusses and Epic repetition penalties if we are going to have a smoother ride from 20 to 28. Glin mentions providing a new completionist track, I'm reading that to mean an extra completionist track and not a replacement completionist track, so it has to be based on Epic levels and Epic Destinies.

    We're supposed to be hearing more about this in the summer. We're also due for an expansion in the summer. So hopefully we're not that far away from some factual details from the good folks at Turbine. They could learn from recent mistakes and provide us with a background to their design decisions and what the concept behind the Epic TR system is to help avoid some of the negative feedback when these things are thrust upon us.

    I would like to see both Completionist and Epic Completionist feats being auto-granted instead of taking up an actual Feat slot.
    Last edited by Deadlock; 06-04-2013 at 08:13 AM.

  2. #2
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    ETR to the level 15 would be more logical in connection with the Iconic Heroes.

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art19), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic6)

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    It sounds like pretty good speculation. You lost me at the point where you said ED destiny was reset each time. So I'd have to regrind 11 destinies, one at a time (and paying the store each time) then regrind all 11 on my final life only to regrind all 11 +1 more whenever they add a new destiny?

    Now I'm not saying Turbine wouldn't do this, but it is a serious turnoff if it is worked that way. Everything else in the OP seems quite reasonable. Most of what needs to be accomplished could be done without resetting ED xp and just resetting epic xp. Players with all destinies unlocked would still have to epic TR 11 times (once with each destiny active at level 28) but wouldn't lose any ED progress each time. Just the need to level to 28.
    Last edited by redspecter23; 06-04-2013 at 08:46 AM.
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    I didn't hear this from someone who plays on the server that can't be named but its possible that by coincidence the server that can't be named might be testing a version of Epic TR where you have to max out all ED destiny XP bars, then you Epic TR which resets your ED to 0 XP in all destinies. You have to level the EDs from scratch, but for your first Epic TR you unlock the new 4th twist slot and get 1 twist point, and for each subsequent Epic TR you get another twist point (up to a total of 3 extra twist points). For Epic Completions you need to complete 3 Epic TRs and then when you start that 4th life you get a free Epic feat (counts as L21 epic feat)

  5. #5
    Community Member Superhanns's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Looks good

    Seems like a nice option indeed for people that like to stick to higher lvl content

    On a personal level the thought seems exausting after grinding normal completionist
    Completionist clonk on argonnessen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhanns View Post
    Seems like a nice option indeed for people that like to stick to higher lvl content

    On a personal level the thought seems exausting after grinding normal completionist
    I kinda just took it to mean going to the next part, 38 point builds with another jump in needed xp and calling it epic as the title, and that was pretty much it. But that's just my thought on what I read.
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    While we are at the baseless speculation, I have been kind of wondering if you perform an 'epic TR' on a per-destiny basis. Fill Unyielding Sentinel up to the very last useless bar, and you get to 'eTR' it. Go back to level 20, with 0 destiny XP in Unyielding Sentinel and some minor bonus for your character. And with the much needed game mechanic of resetting your quest completion counters.

    This is all just random guesses, though, so probably nowhere near the system that actually gets released. Would be something that is very greatly needed, though, considering that they are shoving 3 more levels at us with only 10 new quests to get through them.

    My worst case scenario idea would be that they realized at this late point that the 'epic commoner' levels were a really bad idea. And that they will now be introducing a horribly chopped up system, by which you have 20 heroic levels, then 5 epic commoner levels, followed by 3 levels of some brand new system. Normally, I would say that this kind of system is only something created by teenagers playing around with house rules in an RPG, but after some of Turbine's system changes over the last year.... well, let's just say I wouldn't be surprised by very much at all any more.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    It sounds like pretty good speculation. You lost me at the point where you said ED destiny was reset each time. So I'd have to regrind 11 destinies, one at a time (and paying the store each time) then regrind all 11 on my final life only to regrind all 11 +1 more whenever they add a new destiny?

    Now I'm not saying Turbine wouldn't do this, but it is a serious turnoff if it is worked that way. Everything else in the OP seems quite reasonable. Most of what needs to be accomplished could be done without resetting ED xp and just resetting epic xp. Players with all destinies unlocked would still have to epic TR 11 times (once with each destiny active at level 28) but wouldn't lose any ED progress each time. Just the need to level to 28.
    Well, my speculation is that you wouldn't need to cap all destines every time, because that would be 1,980,000 x 11 = 12,780,000 XP each time. I'm thinking it makes more sense to get to 28 and it's the one ED that you currently have active (and maybe capped too) that will give an Epic Past Life Feat.

    Assuming the XP requirement continue with their current progression that would still be 6,600,000 XP which is still enough to cap out 3 destines from scratch.

    Code:
    21   300,000
    22   750,000
    23 1,350,000
    24 2,100,000
    25 3,000,000
    26 4,050,000
    27 5,250,000
    28 6,600,000

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    I didn't hear this from someone who plays on the server that can't be named but its possible that by coincidence the server that can't be named might be testing a version of Epic TR where you have to max out all ED destiny XP bars, then you Epic TR which resets your ED to 0 XP in all destinies. You have to level the EDs from scratch, but for your first Epic TR you unlock the new 4th twist slot and get 1 twist point, and for each subsequent Epic TR you get another twist point (up to a total of 3 extra twist points). For Epic Completions you need to complete 3 Epic TRs and then when you start that 4th life you get a free Epic feat (counts as L21 epic feat)
    I hope this is just wilder speculation than mine

    Grinding out 21,780,000 XP to cap all destines is tough enough. I did it over multiple lives so it wasn't too painful, but I pity the fools that do Impossible Demands and Rusty Blades a million times. There's "efficient" and then there's "just mental". Repeating this twice more to get Epic Completionist, and then a final time to level back up again means an extra 65,340,000 XP ... there's not enough XP in the game for that and won't be for some considerable time to come. Especially if you consider that farming for destines when capped will be moved to 28 so you'll already have had to get 6,600,000 XP to get to 28 in the first place.
    Last edited by Deadlock; 06-04-2013 at 05:21 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citzen_Gkar View Post
    I didn't hear this from someone who plays on the server that can't be named but its possible that by coincidence the server that can't be named might be testing a version of Epic TR where you have to max out all ED destiny XP bars, then you Epic TR which resets your ED to 0 XP in all destinies. You have to level the EDs from scratch, but for your first Epic TR you unlock the new 4th twist slot and get 1 twist point, and for each subsequent Epic TR you get another twist point (up to a total of 3 extra twist points). For Epic Completions you need to complete 3 Epic TRs and then when you start that 4th life you get a free Epic feat (counts as L21 epic feat)
    Screw that. It was NOT FUN to max them all out in the first place.

  11. #11
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Wow, does epic TR sound like it is going to be a total mess.

    And epic TR starting at lvl 15? Why not just start a toon at 20 and avoid 5 levels of hassle?

    What I don't undeerstand, really, is if epic levels have THAT much power, such that a regular TR or Completionist means next to nothing, then why bother with doing levels 1 - 20? My thoughts are that the standard leveling should be the baseline, and maybe epic destinies being the icing on the cake. But now it sounds like epic destinies outweigh standard levels such that they require their own "completionist" attribution.

    All I see coming of this is having content from lvl 1 - 19 being unattractive, and atropied.

    Frankly, this is another bad idea. People now are already complaining about Iconic classes starting at 15, and the people running them knowing next to nothing. This is just going to make things worse.

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    I doubt that ETR would outweigh HTR that much in terms of what it adds. The dev post says it'll add another 2 stat points - so you'll go from 36 to 38 on a "fourth life" character. That's not nearly the difference of going 28->36. Unless he meant an Epic Completionist feat that gives another +2 Stats? But obviously having to use another Feat slot for it is less attractive than +2 base points at creation.

    I cant imagine its based on ED either...that system is completely separate from class levels, of course. And the ED system is already set up where you can jump between destinies, respec at will, cap one out and then start on another, etc. And twists are essentially like PL feats for EDs. There's no need for ED TRing, its basically already built into the ED system.

    My wild speculation is that its just a way to recycle L20-28 content, the way that HTR recycles 1-20. Since the level cap raise is going to make L20-23 content obsolete for endgame players, there's a need now to keep it partially relevant. With that in mind, I expect it will just be "TR Lite", based on your dominant class, so that when you hit L28, you can bounce back down to L20, respec if you want, and pick up a small passive bonus. That'd be nice, as it would give players a way to respec into builds that dont really "hit their stride" till L20, rather than having to grind through Heroic with a build meant for Epic.

    I'm guessing the Epic PL bonuses will just be passive, no actives, and tied into the "corresponding" EDs. So a Ranger Epic PL might give you a bonus to Shiradi skills and twists, or some passive bonus with a Shiradi flavor. Maybe additional Fate points too.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    I hope this is just wilder speculation than mine

    Grinding out 21,780,000 XP to cap all destines is tough enough. I did it over multiple lives so it wasn't too painful, but I pity the fools that to Impossible Demands and Rusty Blades a million times. There's "efficient" and then there's "just mental". Repeating this twice more to get Epic Completionist, and then a final time to level back up again means an extra 65,340,000 XP ... there's not enough XP in the game for that and won't be for some considerable time to come. Especially if you consider that farming for destines when capped will be moved to 28 so you'll already have had to get 6,600,000 XP to get to 28 in the first place.
    Well, Heroic Completionist is about 53.2M XP. And Epic XP is scaled to be about 10x Heroic XP, so even having to cap all EDs three times over isn't some absurd amount XP-wise.

    But it's a complete grind, because epic destiny farming is just that - farming. You don't get it while doing normal questing, because you're in-destiny for questing. You have to plan your lvl cap so that you have a high-xp quest left at cap that you can farm repeatedly because of how the repeat penalties work - and that's going to get harder with the cap going up to lvl 28, and at most 10 quests that are in the 25-28 range plus a single raid at lvl 25 (and you can't exactly farm a raid for XP without buying piles of bypass timers).

    The epic destiny grind is a horrible mechanic that only happened because they wanted to sell you shears of fate and destiny unlocks. Asking us to re-do that nightmare isn't exactly going to cause Epic TR Hearts to go flying off the shelves.

    At one point I had hoped that "Epic TR" would be a TR that took you from current lvl cap - 28 when it rolls out, higher if they raise it again later - back to lvl 1, like a TR. This would earn an Epic Past Life, and once you have all the Epic Past Lives, you'd be Epic Completionist. Either make the Epic PLs stack with the Heroic, but only stack 1 time (perhaps you get a Heroic credit if you already have the epic version), or make the Epic PLs supersede the Heroic versions, so ultimately you could have 3xEpic PL. Epic Completionist feat should be auto-granted when you take Completionist feat, and really both should just be auto-granted when you qualify for them (stop making completionists burn a feat on them, they've given up enough.) I suppose that's not what they had in mind, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibor View Post
    But it's a complete grind, because epic destiny farming is just that - farming. You don't get it while doing normal questing, because you're in-destiny for questing. You have to plan your lvl cap so that you have a high-xp quest left at cap that you can farm repeatedly because of how the repeat penalties work
    Can't stress enough that this is not the only way to do it. It's definitely the least fun way to do it, but it's most definitely not the only way. I did it over multiple lives and it was painless, but my way isn't the only way either

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Wow, does epic TR sound like it is going to be a total mess.

    And epic TR starting at lvl 15? Why not just start a toon at 20 and avoid 5 levels of hassle?

    What I don't undeerstand, really, is if epic levels have THAT much power, such that a regular TR or Completionist means next to nothing, then why bother with doing levels 1 - 20? My thoughts are that the standard leveling should be the baseline, and maybe epic destinies being the icing on the cake. But now it sounds like epic destinies outweigh standard levels such that they require their own "completionist" attribution.

    All I see coming of this is having content from lvl 1 - 19 being unattractive, and atropied.

    Frankly, this is another bad idea. People now are already complaining about Iconic classes starting at 15, and the people running them knowing next to nothing. This is just going to make things worse.
    No need for doom mongering. This is just a speculation thread based on unsubstantiated conjecture and lucid pondering. If you don't like what you've read, speculate on how you think it will be. If you hate the idea of the whole thing and think that all plans for it should be scrapped, then good luck with that. History tells us that ship has sailed, it's happening, we just don't know the exact details yet.

  16. #16
    Community Member Rhomnibus's Avatar
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    Cool I will keep my speculation short

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    Epic TR should
    - only be possible when level 28 with tier 5 in all EDs.
    - reset xp to level 20
    - reset all ED xp to zero
    - act as a LR+5 (so you get to reset 5 levels worth of classes from your current build but not completely pick different classes)
    - make earning ED xp in a different ED from the active one possible! (absolute essential part of any scheme that resets ED xp)
    - give one twist point each time its done to a maximum of 10 times.
    - add a bonus feat once done 10 times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibor View Post
    But it's a complete grind, because epic destiny farming is just that - farming. You don't get it while doing normal questing, because you're in-destiny for questing.
    I capped out all EDs in several months, through normal questing & raiding. I didn't use my "main" destiny...in fact I levelled it up last. Though some are better than others, all the destines offer something.

    You only are mindlessly grinding ID or RB if that's what you choose to do. There's really no need.

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    [QUOTE=Deadlock;5015371]WARNING: This post contains wild speculation. The OP makes no apology for this and any further wild speculation on the part of the reader.

    The only official word we've had on this is



    So the wild speculation is what is the purpose of Epic True Reincarnation? What problems could it be designed to solve, or what benefits could it be designed to provide? And how much tinfoil hattery can I get out of the quote from Producer Glin.

    Here are some possibilities that I've thought about
    [list][*]Epic TR is designed to provide a platform for people to play solely in Epic Levels from 20 to 28 extending the life of the Epic content to create a new Endgame option for players[*]Epic TR will retain your Heroic XP and reset your Epic XP.

    I would be willing to bet an epic TR will not be based on your ED nor will it reset ED XP.

    My speculation is thus when you ETR, you will retain your Heroic XP, however undergo the character creation process all over from scratch and must spend all AP, feats, level ups etc. then have access to quest. You then gain credit for whatever dominant class you TRed from. You will then be able to heroic TR at any time, but cannot ETR until you reach 28. This would not allow an exploit as you always had the option before to either ETR or HTR.

  20. #20
    Community Member ddo.rsmo.pt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    What problems could it be designed to solve, or what benefits could it be designed to provide?
    I think you meant: "What problems could it be designed to provide, or what benefits could it be designed to solve?"

    At least, that's probably how it's gonna happen anyway.

    Carry on.
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