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  1. #21
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    No, there is no "pay to win" because you can't "win" an MMO. Its a stupid term that shouldn't exist. Who cares if some people pay money to get something in game? There is no PvP so there is no contest between my PC and your PC.
    yes there are no credit cut scenes congrats, we're not talking about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    I've been vip since a week or two after launch... guess that makes me pay to win, eh?

    Anyway, what many who have been here far less time fail so see, through no fault of their own, is the bigger, longer view of the history of the game and the changes made since launch.

    One of those major changes revolves around the micro purchase paradigm. Selling stuff in the DDO store increases revenue. Great for turbine and maybe good for DDO if the money comes back to us. When first put out to the DDO community the store was going to be perks and fluff, but nothing that would alter the game. Would you say that is true of the store today?

    Enter the complaints about pay to win. If you can purchase something for cash that makes your character more powerful then you enter a pay to win situation. Tomes for example are a pay to win item.

    Do I use the DDO store. Yep. I buy lots of TR the LR hearts and xp potions as well as the occasional rogue hire. (I've even bought tomes, but more on that later.)

    When the store only sold stuff that didn't affect a characters ability to complete a dungeon, no one cared. Buy all the cosmetic armor kits and hair dye you like. It doesn't touch balance at all.

    When the store sells things that make the actual quest completion faster and easier, then the complaints start. Also, the balance issues begin. (Balance not between classes, but between players and the quests.) Quests are eventually altered and new quests are designed with the purchasable items in mind until the items are not longer nice to have, but needed for the new content. Now you must "pay to win" and turbine sells more stuff, but now its no longer good for us, its just good for them.

    I don't care what anyone else buys or has as long as the game is NOT changed to account for what that "anyone else" buys or has. As soon as Turbine alters the game because of what they are selling there is no more option to "simply don't use it if you don't like it". The game is now based on the assumption that you have it. That is where "pay to win" in a non-competitive game goes wrong.

    Can you see the difference?
    Well said

    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I don’t buy any of the fluff items from the store, and I really do not consider those as P2W. There only 2 things that really bother me about P2W (only 1 really, but there are 2 examples.)

    First is mana pots. Turbine did away with extended firewall and blade barrier because they were too OP. Then they turn around allow you to extend nonstop by drinking store pots. Was extended firewall game breaking? Did it really affect the way I play? Not really. I can conserve mana with the best of them, but this is something that was switched. If we had no P2W, we would still have extended spells, but Turbine decided to nickel and dime us on top of what we were paying.

    Second point is xp. Sure they gave us bravery bonus, and I can agree that you do not need pots to cap within a reasonable time, but Turbine is there to capitalize again. They will allow you to pay for an xp tome. They will allow you to pay for 50% xp pots.

    The problem with quest xp goes back to Amrath. House C quests, (not to mention bait and switch challenge xp). Why should they increase the xp in these quests if they can make you pay for them? They need money, and I can understand that, but this is P2W. Why do they keep nerfing xp in rusted blades and I demands? If you look close you will see that if you drink a 50% xp pot, you will still not be getting as much xp as when the quest was released. Why is that? Was the xp that OP or is Turbine just trying to fleece us?

    I can agree with you somewhat, but don’t pretend P2W is not here. If it were not Turbine would stop nerfing things just to sell them right back to us?
    also well said, maybe hal will read them.

  2. #22
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I also have been playing the game since the beginning (technically before). I am a casual player/altoholic, not a powergamer. I have never purchased anything from the store to increase the power of a character. Neither have the people in my static group who are also pretty casual. Yet we almost always run quests in an Epic bravery streak. What quests have been altered to account for "P2W" items?
    Saw a reavers fate elite today posted at levels 20-25....

    Shrouds take longer today with level 25s in the group than they did back when the cap was 16...

    I've lost interest in the demon queen over how many times they have changed it.

    My static group is 2 people. Occasionally three. Yes, we too can BB elite, but I'll be honest enough to admit that when we get to epic, we switch to epic hard for leveling. We don't do epic elite until we cap out and gear up (eveningstar and newer anyway.)
    /sigh

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I don’t buy any of the fluff items from the store, and I really do not consider those as P2W. There only 2 things that really bother me about P2W (only 1 really, but there are 2 examples.)

    First is mana pots. Turbine did away with extended firewall and blade barrier because they were too OP. Then they turn around allow you to extend nonstop by drinking store pots. Was extended firewall game breaking? Did it really affect the way I play? Not really. I can conserve mana with the best of them, but this is something that was switched. If we had no P2W, we would still have extended spells, but Turbine decided to nickel and dime us on top of what we were paying.

    Second point is xp. Sure they gave us bravery bonus, and I can agree that you do not need pots to cap within a reasonable time, but Turbine is there to capitalize again. They will allow you to pay for an xp tome. They will allow you to pay for 50% xp pots.

    The problem with quest xp goes back to Amrath. House C quests, (not to mention bait and switch challenge xp). Why should they increase the xp in these quests if they can make you pay for them? They need money, and I can understand that, but this is P2W. Why do they keep nerfing xp in rusted blades and I demands? If you look close you will see that if you drink a 50% xp pot, you will still not be getting as much xp as when the quest was released. Why is that? Was the xp that OP or is Turbine just trying to fleece us?

    I can agree with you somewhat, but don’t pretend P2W is not here. If it were not Turbine would stop nerfing things just to sell them right back to us?
    I'm not saying that Turbine isn't encouraging players to pay for items that really aren't necessary. I'm saying that its not pay to WIN. You can accomplish the same goals without paying. If someone wants to buy items from the store to make it EVEN EASIER to play, who cares? If someone really has to drink store pots to be able to play, that doesn't say anything about me....

  4. #24
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    this argument always boils down to:

    Do you want to be able to buy it? No? then don't, problem solved. Can you tell when someone else bought it? No? Then whats the problem?

    Do you want to be able to stop others from buying it despite that it doesn't effect you and you can't even tell they bought it? Yes? Really? Then congratz, you just joined the ranks of such wonderfully close minded groups as religious people who don't want you to look at naked people in girly magazines, and pocket despots who don't want you to be able to buy a 64 ounce soda.

    Now the good news is if you can recognize that tiny "busy body" within you; you can do something about it. That can be as simple as "dude WTeefff I do not want to be like a prudish old lady, I need to live and let live" or as complex as getting some therapy.

    Just remember: if you can't even tell someone else bought something, it apparently does no harm to you for them to be able to buy it. So the sad but true fact of the matter is: if you still have a problem with it, then you are the problem with it.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-03-2013 at 01:59 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    this argument always boils down to:

    Do you want to be able to buy it? No? then don't, problem solved. Can you tell when someone else bought it? No? Then whats the problem?

    Do you want to be able to stop others from buying it despite that it doesn't effect you and you can't even tell they bought it? Yes? Really? Then congratz, you just joined the ranks of such wonderfully close minded groups as religious people who don't want you to look at naked people in girly magazines, and pocket despots who don't want you to be able to buy a 64 ounce soda.

    Now the good news is if you can recognize that tiny "busy body" within you; you can do something about it. That can be as simple as "dude WTeefff I do not want to be like a prudish old lady, I need to live and let live" or as complex as getting some therapy.

    Just remember: if you can't even tell someone else bought something, it apparently does no harm to you for them to be able to buy it. So the sad but true fact of the matter is: if you still have a problem with it, then you are the problem with it.
    THIS^. I'm tired of people asking for something to be removed from the store/game because they can't control their own behavior. You don't like something that makes the game easier? Don't use it! It's really that simple.

  6. #26
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    THIS^. I'm tired of people asking for something to be removed from the store/game because they can't control their own behavior. You don't like something that makes the game easier? Don't use it! It's really that simple.
    My ONLY issue with the store or anything pay to win-ish, is making sure Turbine does not balance the game on the assumption that you buy x, y and z from the store. This includes things you can get in game but can get faster and at a higher quantity from the store than make a character more powerful. Please read it all: IF turbine continues to make ALL the quests based on the items, including quantity available, acquired in game only, then I don't care one bit how much of whatever you buy in the store.

    So the question becomes, do you believe Turbine won't do anything in the design of the game to "encourage" you or outright require you to buy stuff from the store? While you think on your answer also ask yourself how many times VIPs were promised to never have to pay for content...
    /sigh

  7. #27
    2015 DDO Players Council MangLord's Avatar
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    Imagine trying to complete quests without your greensteel weapons, or dragonscale armor, or even any other named items. 95% of those are only obtainable with p2p quests. Can you even make it to level 20 without buying content?

    That is the definition of pay to win.

    ps....Turbine, as a profitable entity, has the right to charge for "premium" stuff. I regularly, pretty much always, pay for new content. However, I don't feel it's fair for a dedicated f2p fellow to be at an insurmountable disadvantage. I'd prefer payment was required to look cool and have a bit of an edge, as opposed to working towards survival.
    In fact, a friend of mine from about 6 months ago recently started playing again after their computer died, and I felt a world apart from them learning in the interim. In order to "win" you need to know how to exploit the quest. So many workarounds that I, as a DM, would not consider fair play. It's unfortunate that so many people take advantage that it becomes the rote way of completion.
    Last edited by MangLord; 06-03-2013 at 03:04 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangLord View Post
    Imagine trying to complete quests without your greensteel, or dragonscale armor, or any other named items. 95% of those are only obtainable with p2p quests. Can you even make it to level 20 without buying content?

    That is the definition of pay to win.
    That's the game in itself... what you're speaking of as to take into account the transition from a sub-only game to a f2p model. That's not really what we're speaking of here I think.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    My ONLY issue with the store or anything pay to win-ish, is making sure Turbine does not balance the game on the assumption that you buy x, y and z from the store. This includes things you can get in game but can get faster and at a higher quantity from the store than make a character more powerful. Please read it all: IF turbine continues to make ALL the quests based on the items, including quantity available, acquired in game only, then I don't care one bit how much of whatever you buy in the store.

    So the question becomes, do you believe Turbine won't do anything in the design of the game to "encourage" you or outright require you to buy stuff from the store? While you think on your answer also ask yourself how many times VIPs were promised to never have to pay for content...
    We're kinda drifting from the point...which was made by the OP, who contended that there is no such thing as P2W...he may as well also contended that the Earth is flat, or the moon is made of cheese for all the sense he made.

    I really couldn't care less about P2W in DDO because of its non competitive nature, i am more concerned about the rapidly declining state of the game...although there would come a point where i would walk away, for example if they started selling ESoS shards/seals in the store.

    The point is that P2W does exist, it is in DDO, it is alarming how many people are so mis-informed as to call content P2W, or that P2W cannot exist in a MMO...im guessing this why the general state of MMO's is declining, and why garbage like GW2 was hailed as a breakthrough game....clueless gamers, why we cant have nice things any more

  10. #30
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenobias View Post
    1st group is broke or so young they don't have a job.
    2nd group has a little bit of discretionary income. May spend a bit on in game perks.
    3rd group has money out the behind and will spend what they want to on making the game fun for themselves.
    1. Just because you don't spend money, doesn't mean you don't have money to spend.
    2. Just because you spend money doesn't mean you HAVE money to spend, at best it means you HAD money to spend.

    Wealthy people do not get that way by spending their money.

    Quote Originally Posted by xenobias View Post
    Envy
    Jealousy

    ...complainers
    ...angry at a perceived injustice
    ...boisterous complaints
    ...envious mentality
    ...you people are leeches
    ...devil spawn.
    ...infantile
    ...destructive
    ...ignorant.
    ...nazi mantra
    ...leeches.
    ...see, here is the problem I see with the pay to win system, note* I don't think ddo is at this point quite yet, but it is very close.

    If you are able to buy your way to the end of the game, say, by hitting the shard exchange and gearing out your toons with all the EE GH gear, and you do so, then you no longer have a reason to play the game.

    Turbine is burning the candle at both ends, and that can only end one way.

  11. #31
    Community Member AlmGhandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    Turbine is burning the candle at both ends, and that can only end one way.
    Yeah somewhen the influx of new accounts will drop under the abandoning of old accounts.

    We DDO Players are only playing and paying for the development of other games... turbines future cash cow.
    Somewhen there will be only 1 Server... no customer support, no new items or content and a $5 per month subscription.
    Then those of us that enjoy the game will carry on... and the others will all have moved on somewhere else. That is the way of things... games grow old and disappear...

    Who Play Final Fantasy 7 today?
    kruemeli of Orien - Leader of the "Merry" Hobbits https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...20#post5002220
    It is okay to be "merry": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjOOKb-DFZs
    I just Keep quiet and think.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYP8M06A8W0

  12. #32
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I'm not saying that Turbine isn't encouraging players to pay for items that really aren't necessary. I'm saying that its not pay to WIN. You can accomplish the same goals without paying. If someone wants to buy items from the store to make it EVEN EASIER to play, who cares? If someone really has to drink store pots to be able to play, that doesn't say anything about me....
    Everyone should care.

    What will you say when the huge expansion is released (8 quests that all might not be epic) are released and they base xp for them is 2,000 xp? How much xp will we need to reach 28? With 8 (maybe not all be epic quests)?

    Turbine will keep adding quests with low xp just hoping that you will buy the epic tome upgrade to greater, they hope you will buy the 75% xp pot (coming soon).

    As to your point “EVEN EASIER”, it was easier until they took away what we had to. Just because you do not need mana pots does not mean nothing happened. They took away something we had and are selling it right back to us.

    If you and the OP’s response is that they need the money to keep the lights on (I don’t believe) but I’ll play along. What they need to do is stop the bait/switch and nerfing what was once ours and putting in stuff that people want.

    Lastly, I have never paid for a store mana pot. I also trade in the collectables for the 20% 6 hour xp pots. So the store has little bearing on how I play. BUT, other people are seeing this and people are walking away. Paying $30 for 8 quest and some fluff garbage? When the game does go under remember this post. All you are doing here is encouraging Turbine to quit giving us a good product, but telling them to sell it to us above what we are already paying for.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenobias View Post
    This isn't my normal type of post and I will probably get my hand slapped but I've had enough..

    ..wall of text..

    ..Flame away you leeches.
    A few facts to consider:

    1. The dwindling number of people using the forums.

    2. The dwindling number of people playing the game.

    3. The mathematical relationship between general dwindling interest and the advent of the P2W business model.

    You really don't need to go beyond these facts, doing so only introduces semantics based arguments. There is no question that Turbine is a business and DDO a product. Every business has to be economically viable to continue to exist. There also has to be demand for a product, to make it worth building a business around supplying. What is happening right now with Turbine and DDO(to use an analogy), is that they are in the process of killing the goose that laid the golden eggs. The extent to which they are doing this willingly and wilfully, is up for some debate.

    Let there be no doubt in anyone's mind that DDO is finally on the way out, whatever the true reasons. All we can do now is see what happens to the carcass. But to get back to the point of the post, there is really little or no relationship between 'leeches' and the P2W model. P2W came much later, from trends within the industry, when the first signs were showing that interest in DDO was past its peak and not coming back in any significant form. DDO was 'put out to pasture' on the F2P model, for one last hurrah before the end.

    That interest has now passed and the obnoxious level of monetization and the way it is implimented is bordering on what many would consider to be somewhere between gross incompetence and criminality. The ugly face of capitalism is on display in a very raw form now in DDO, with very little human energy and creativity in the mix. What we are seeing in DDO now is what happens when you subordinate every other facet of what goes into maintaining a special interest community, to pure monetization.

    I doubt DDO will still exist this time next year.
    Last edited by RightToRemainStupid; 06-03-2013 at 07:08 AM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbyx View Post
    We're kinda drifting from the point...which was made by the OP, who contended that there is no such thing as P2W...he may as well also contended that the Earth is flat, or the moon is made of cheese for all the sense he made.
    What I actually think the OP meant is more like... that might sound bad but here it is: "Since there is no competition in DDO, there shouldn't be people ranting about the P2W aspect".

    And this is kind of true because if you really take a look at it, you will see that it doesn't affect everyone or not equally at least, hence a proof that it is an emotional feeling. Now what happens is this thread has derailed into "how harmful is the f2p model (and not p2w in itself) once pushed to it's limit".

    These are 2 totally different things the way I see it.

    Edit: On top of that my deduction is that he also meant to let everyone go all out with those P2W stuff (to a certain extent) so there is less money needed to be taken out from f2p game breaking mechanics.

    Or that's just my opinion...

    Also I would like to point that there HAS to be ways to kind of restrict the game from being totally free to someone. Whatever it is... And xp seems to be something that no one can get away from so yeah... not such a bad idea from Turbine. (for when it comes to xp at least)
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 06-03-2013 at 07:17 AM.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  15. #35
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    I'm one of the people that could have very well given up on DDO were it not for "PTW". I have less time to play then most of the people I know & group with in game. Being able to purchase things like pots lets me keep up with them and at least feel like I have a chance to advance. and still keep up with people I enjoy Without these I would have burned out on the hamster wheel before now. Whatever you want to call it, I think these options make the game more accessable for the greater number of people.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kellynj View Post
    I'm one of the people that could have very well given up on DDO were it not for "PTW". I have less time to play then most of the people I know & group with in game. Being able to purchase things like pots lets me keep up with them and at least feel like I have a chance to advance. and still keep up with people I enjoy Without these I would have burned out on the hamster wheel before now. Whatever you want to call it, I think these options make the game more accessable for the greater number of people.
    Nice to have someone defending this side here. Also understanding the point being made has a bonus!

    Because again, without competition, if you remove that "envy" as stated by the OP, there is also a big positive side that comes with it. Exactly for the reason you described. Also the player base in DDO is kind of more relaxed casual like you (or used to be at least) and I really think that what is being expressed on the forum barely reflects reality.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MangLord View Post
    Imagine trying to complete quests without your greensteel weapons, or dragonscale armor, or even any other named items. 95% of those are only obtainable with p2p quests. Can you even make it to level 20 without buying content?

    That is the definition of pay to win.

    ps....Turbine, as a profitable entity, has the right to charge for "premium" stuff. I regularly, pretty much always, pay for new content. However, I don't feel it's fair for a dedicated f2p fellow to be at an insurmountable disadvantage. I'd prefer payment was required to look cool and have a bit of an edge, as opposed to working towards survival.
    In fact, a friend of mine from about 6 months ago recently started playing again after their computer died, and I felt a world apart from them learning in the interim. In order to "win" you need to know how to exploit the quest. So many workarounds that I, as a DM, would not consider fair play. It's unfortunate that so many people take advantage that it becomes the rote way of completion.
    None of my characters has ever had greensteel or dragonscale or any other top gear that requires grinding or lots of plat. Between all of my 10 alts I have never had more than 500k plat and have never bought any "uber" gear in-game or from the store. None of those things are required to run all the content on Elite. And no, I'm not a super-player either, very casual.

    As for buying content, if you define that as Pay-to-win then every single MMO is pay to win since you at least have to buy the initial game. No, I don't accept buying content = P2W.

  18. #38
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    Someone with NWO loaded needs to log on there and tell Chai that there is a Pay To Win thread on the DDO forums. Page 2 of a Pay To Win thread and no Chai? Impossible!

  19. #39
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    DDO has been pay to win for a year or two now, what with all the xp tomes, ottos boxes, best tomes in store.. Heck, now you can buy the bloody augment straight from the store, you know, those things you could literally need thousands of epic tokens to get in the past.

    You're blind if you don't see how p2w ddo is these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post
    Let there be no doubt in anyone's mind that DDO is finally on the way out, whatever the true reasons.
    Heh, after around four years here I've to say, that for the first time ever I actually agree with this sentiment.
    Last edited by Hiisi; 06-03-2013 at 12:30 PM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Also I would like to point that there HAS to be ways to kind of restrict the game from being totally free to someone. Whatever it is... And xp seems to be something that no one can get away from so yeah... not such a bad idea from Turbine. (for when it comes to xp at least)
    No, there doesn't have to be a way to make people pay. I don't know why some people who do pay get mad that there are people who don't. Everyone should make their own choice whether to pay and how much and not worry about what "the Jones" are doing. People who play for free don't hurt the game. If they did it wouldn't be allowed. People who never pay one cent still contribute to the game just by logging in. They bring the Massively to the MMO.

    Think about it: DDO used to be subscription (everybody must pay the same amount). Under that mode the game almost folded because it didn't make enough money. So they switched to F2P - purposefully making it so people could pay nothing at all if they wanted to. And they made twice as much money as from subscriptions! Even though there are people who don't pay anything they are still making more money than they would if they forced everyone to pay.

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