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  1. #1

    Default So What's Going On? Leeches I tell you!

    This isn't my normal type of post and I will probably get my hand slapped but I've had enough.

    There is no such thing as Pay To Win.

    What we have here are basically 3 groups of players.

    1st group is broke or so young they don't have a job.
    2nd group has a little bit of discretionary income. May spend a bit on in game perks.
    3rd group has money out the behind and will spend what they want to on making the game fun for themselves.

    But, even though the game's player base is pretty stagnant, even though we have people complaining about little to no LFMs, even though we have some servers with next to none logging in, even though this company is a for profit company and must pay their employees, we still see a very special group of people crying about Pay To Win.

    At first I thought that this didn't make sense. Quickly it became very apparent what was happening. 2 very powerful and very damaging human emotional traits were showing their ugly heads:

    Envy
    Jealousy

    Cmon people-we need those bugs fixed->Turbine needs to pay the programmers.
    We need updated and new content-> Turbine needs to pay the programmers.
    We need more players->Turbine will make sure to make the game as fun as possible.

    Since when is Turbine a non-profit? Answer->Never.

    But the Pay To Win complainers are so angry at a perceived injustice they don't see the truth.

    Their boisterous complaints put their jealousies and envious mentality out in the open for all to see.

    It also spotlights another thing->you people are leeches-proudly proclaiming that you pay no money towards this game. None what so ever and any one who does is devil spawn.

    P2W-is an infantile argument, untrue in every aspect, destructive and ignorant.

    If someone paying to have fun grinds you in the gut so bad you yell P2W like a nazi mantra then quit the game. We will all be better for it.

    Flame away you leeches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xenobias View Post
    This isn't my normal type of post and I will probably get my hand slapped but I've had enough.

    There is no such thing as Pay To Win.

    What we have here are basically 3 groups of players.

    1st group is broke or so young they don't have a job.
    2nd group has a little bit of discretionary income. May spend a bit on in game perks.
    3rd group has money out the behind and will spend what they want to on making the game fun for themselves.

    But, even though the game's player base is pretty stagnant, even though we have people complaining about little to no LFMs, even though we have some servers with next to none logging in, even though this company is a for profit company and must pay their employees, we still see a very special group of people crying about Pay To Win.

    At first I thought that this didn't make sense. Quickly it became very apparent what was happening. 2 very powerful and very damaging human emotional traits were showing their ugly heads:

    Envy
    Jealousy

    Cmon people-we need those bugs fixed->Turbine needs to pay the programmers.
    We need updated and new content-> Turbine needs to pay the programmers.
    We need more players->Turbine will make sure to make the game as fun as possible.

    Since when is Turbine a non-profit? Answer->Never.

    But the Pay To Win complainers are so angry at a perceived injustice they don't see the truth.

    Their boisterous complaints put their jealousies and envious mentality out in the open for all to see.

    It also spotlights another thing->you people are leeches-proudly proclaiming that you pay no money towards this game. None what so ever and any one who does is devil spawn.

    P2W-is an infantile argument, untrue in every aspect, destructive and ignorant.

    If someone paying to have fun grinds you in the gut so bad you yell P2W like a nazi mantra then quit the game. We will all be better for it.

    Flame away you leeches.
    While I'd tend to agree totally with you, I also understand that these fake emotionals feelings (since there is no harm done in this situation) are stuck in deep for some. There are reasons that made people how they are and, maybe it sucks, but we gotta deal with it because it is part of our reality.

    But yeah still true... espacially for leechers that are getting a great game and at the same time telling BS at people that makes it keep going... that's sad.

    Brought that point some times ago but it's nothing special, just a micro-society in which everyday's bad behaviors can be observed.
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    ...And then there was silence

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenobias View Post
    There is no such thing as Pay To Win.
    What we have here are basically 3 groups of players.
    But, even though the game's player base is pretty stagnant, even though we have people complaining about little to no LFMs, even though we have some servers with next to none logging in, even though this company is a for profit company and must pay their employees, we still see a very special group of people crying about Pay To Win.
    Yes, there is no such thing as P2W. No, there are many more types of players. And P2W has nothing to do with supporting the game. There are plenty of things you can spend money on in DDO without supporting P2W if you don't want to. Buying Pets, Cosmetic items, Adventure Packs, etc. is not P2W.

    So if people want to complain about P2W let them.

  4. #4
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    You left out a number 4. I have more than enough money to give, but I do not knowing that they will ont put the money back into the game. Did Turbine hire any more people with all the money they made from the otto's box? Are all the new companions covering the cost of running a "new and improved" forum? Is all the expansion money they are getting keeping the number of bugs down?

    The prooblem they have is that they can't see the forest for the trees. They offer BTC bags and they see 100 of them. Make them BTA and they will sell a 1000 of them. We ask for more bank space and we get another companion. Sure some may like the companions, but I know of other ways that would really increase the revenue.

    Go ahead and blindly throwing your money at Turbine. Until they show that they are putting the money back into the game, dont expect much out of many of us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenobias View Post
    But, even though the game's player base is pretty stagnant, even though we have people complaining about little to no LFMs, even though we have some servers with next to none logging in, even though this company is a for profit company and must pay their employees, we still see a very special group of people crying about Pay To Win.
    ...
    Am I failing a sarcasm check somewhere here?


    Anyways,
    Quote Originally Posted by xenobias View Post
    [...]
    Since when is Turbine a non-profit? Answer->Never.
    In real world, business work like this:
    You give people what they want and they pay you.
    You can use the money to make more stuff to sell.
    If they like what you sell, the people who bought before will buy again, and possibly buy more or invite friends.

    You don't give people what they want and they don't pay you.
    No, they don't randomly pay you just in case the next stuff you make is to their liking.
    And if they tried your product and found it lacking, they will rather try something else than purchasing from you. And of course they don't tell their friends to buy from you.

    Now, I don't have any insider knowledge, but I see a number of clues as to which of these scenarios is happening now with DDO...




    BTW, out of curiosity.
    In light of the bold statement that "There is no such thing as Pay To Win.", could you explain how being able to buy 8 levels for dollars is not an example of it?

  6. #6
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    P2W is anything where spending money gets you more in game power. There are two prime examples of it, btcoe gear and the shard exchange where you can spend real life money and be end game geared, and otto's boxes where you spend money and get over 8 levels if you have xp effects active. Sorry but there is p2w, it's effects can be argued it's existance can't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    P2W is anything where spending money gets you more in game power. There are two prime examples of it, btcoe gear and the shard exchange where you can spend real life money and be end game geared, and otto's boxes where you spend money and get over 8 levels if you have xp effects active. Sorry but there is p2w, it's effects can be argued it's existance can't.
    No, there is no "pay to win" because you can't "win" an MMO. Its a stupid term that shouldn't exist. Who cares if some people pay money to get something in game? There is no PvP so there is no contest between my PC and your PC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    P2W is anything where spending money gets you more in game power. There are two prime examples of it, btcoe gear and the shard exchange where you can spend real life money and be end game geared, and otto's boxes where you spend money and get over 8 levels if you have xp effects active. Sorry but there is p2w, it's effects can be argued it's existance can't.
    Actually, BTCoE gear on the shard exchange is only borderline IMO as it only needs to be sold there if it has already been equipped.

    But as far as the other goes, along with tomes of fate, xp tomes, xp potions, slayer boost potions, jewels of fortune and vet I/II status. As far as I'm concerned these probably shouldn't even be included as in-game rewards.

    I'd even include sp potions, better than csw potions and other items that aren't available from in-game vendors as P2W, but okay as rare in-game drops.

    That said, I really don't have a problem with the store selling them, but I, personally, wont be buying my way through the game. It's to much, to me, like running a marathon and buying the chance to start at the 20 mile mark. I wouldn't be actually running a marathon in my mind so it would defeat the purpose of even bothering with it at all. But if another wants to do that, more power to them.

  9. #9
    Community Member Burradin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindCakes View Post
    ...BTW, out of curiosity.In light of the bold statement that "There is no such thing as Pay To Win.", could you explain how being able to buy 8 levels for dollars is not an example of it?
    At the end of those 8 levels, does it say you won and game is over? No more to play? Nope, you didn't win. Technically there is no end to the game like RPGs, single player games out there. So actually, PTW is not possible in an MMO.
    It is ok to hate me, I don't like me most of the time.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burradin View Post
    At the end of those 8 levels, does it say you won and game is over? No more to play? Nope, you didn't win. Technically there is no end to the game like RPGs, single player games out there. So actually, PTW is not possible in an MMO.

  11. #11
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    I've been vip since a week or two after launch... guess that makes me pay to win, eh?

    Anyway, what many who have been here far less time fail so see, through no fault of their own, is the bigger, longer view of the history of the game and the changes made since launch.

    One of those major changes revolves around the micro purchase paradigm. Selling stuff in the DDO store increases revenue. Great for turbine and maybe good for DDO if the money comes back to us. When first put out to the DDO community the store was going to be perks and fluff, but nothing that would alter the game. Would you say that is true of the store today?

    Enter the complaints about pay to win. If you can purchase something for cash that makes your character more powerful then you enter a pay to win situation. Tomes for example are a pay to win item.

    Do I use the DDO store. Yep. I buy lots of TR the LR hearts and xp potions as well as the occasional rogue hire. (I've even bought tomes, but more on that later.)

    When the store only sold stuff that didn't affect a characters ability to complete a dungeon, no one cared. Buy all the cosmetic armor kits and hair dye you like. It doesn't touch balance at all.

    When the store sells things that make the actual quest completion faster and easier, then the complaints start. Also, the balance issues begin. (Balance not between classes, but between players and the quests.) Quests are eventually altered and new quests are designed with the purchasable items in mind until the items are not longer nice to have, but needed for the new content. Now you must "pay to win" and turbine sells more stuff, but now its no longer good for us, its just good for them.

    I don't care what anyone else buys or has as long as the game is NOT changed to account for what that "anyone else" buys or has. As soon as Turbine alters the game because of what they are selling there is no more option to "simply don't use it if you don't like it". The game is now based on the assumption that you have it. That is where "pay to win" in a non-competitive game goes wrong.

    Can you see the difference?
    /sigh

  12. #12
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    Pay to win does exist, but it's not a static constant. It's a relative variable that changes from person to person. Every person has a point where the game would become pay to win for them. Perhaps if Turbine were to charge $0.25 per hour to play the game, it would be pay to win for someone. Perhaps if Turbine were selling epic Sword of Shadows in the store, the game would be pay to win. You can't nail down what pay to win means to every single person. As shown in the OP, some people have a very high threshold before they consider the game to be pay to win.

    Also remember that the term pay to win is also relative because "winning" is different to different people. To me, winning is achieving my personal list of game goals, many of which can be made easier and faster with store purchases. In that way, I consider some aspect of the game to be pay to win as I could, theoretically, pay to achieve my personal goals faster.

    Also consider that even with these 2 variables, you still have a third variable. An individual's own tolerance to pay to win. Just because something is pay to win, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing to someone. I disagree with Otto's boxes, but I understand that is something I have an issue with and that other people might like them, whether they consider them pay to win or not.

    People need to keep an open mind about issues such as pay to win and realize there is no right or wrong as it's all relative. It's a personal opinion and you can't just demand everyone share the same opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    When the store sells things that make the actual quest completion faster and easier, then the complaints start. Also, the balance issues begin. (Balance not between classes, but between players and the quests.) Quests are eventually altered and new quests are designed with the purchasable items in mind until the items are not longer nice to have, but needed for the new content. Now you must "pay to win" and turbine sells more stuff, but now its no longer good for us, its just good for them.
    I also have been playing the game since the beginning (technically before). I am a casual player/altoholic, not a powergamer. I have never purchased anything from the store to increase the power of a character. Neither have the people in my static group who are also pretty casual. Yet we almost always run quests in an Epic bravery streak. What quests have been altered to account for "P2W" items?

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    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I also have been playing the game since the beginning (technically before). I am a casual player/altoholic, not a powergamer. I have never purchased anything from the store to increase the power of a character. Neither have the people in my static group who are also pretty casual. Yet we almost always run quests in an Epic bravery streak. What quests have been altered to account for "P2W" items?
    I don’t buy any of the fluff items from the store, and I really do not consider those as P2W. There only 2 things that really bother me about P2W (only 1 really, but there are 2 examples.)

    First is mana pots. Turbine did away with extended firewall and blade barrier because they were too OP. Then they turn around allow you to extend nonstop by drinking store pots. Was extended firewall game breaking? Did it really affect the way I play? Not really. I can conserve mana with the best of them, but this is something that was switched. If we had no P2W, we would still have extended spells, but Turbine decided to nickel and dime us on top of what we were paying.

    Second point is xp. Sure they gave us bravery bonus, and I can agree that you do not need pots to cap within a reasonable time, but Turbine is there to capitalize again. They will allow you to pay for an xp tome. They will allow you to pay for 50% xp pots.

    The problem with quest xp goes back to Amrath. House C quests, (not to mention bait and switch challenge xp). Why should they increase the xp in these quests if they can make you pay for them? They need money, and I can understand that, but this is P2W. Why do they keep nerfing xp in rusted blades and I demands? If you look close you will see that if you drink a 50% xp pot, you will still not be getting as much xp as when the quest was released. Why is that? Was the xp that OP or is Turbine just trying to fleece us?

    I can agree with you somewhat, but don’t pretend P2W is not here. If it were not Turbine would stop nerfing things just to sell them right back to us?
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    Community Member FestusHood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    First is mana pots. Turbine did away with extended firewall and blade barrier because they were too OP. Then they turn around allow you to extend nonstop by drinking store pots. Was extended firewall game breaking? Did it really affect the way I play? Not really. I can conserve mana with the best of them, but this is something that was switched. If we had no P2W, we would still have extended spells, but Turbine decided to nickel and dime us on top of what we were paying.
    You can do this with in game pots too. Lots of vets talk about having millions of plat. If you can't buy enough in game pots with that, maybe you need to work on your efficiency a little. Maybe turn maximize off once in a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I don’t buy any of the fluff items from the store, and I really do not consider those as P2W. There only 2 things that really bother me about P2W (only 1 really, but there are 2 examples.)

    First is mana pots. Turbine did away with extended firewall and blade barrier because they were too OP. Then they turn around allow you to extend nonstop by drinking store pots. Was extended firewall game breaking? Did it really affect the way I play? Not really. I can conserve mana with the best of them, but this is something that was switched. If we had no P2W, we would still have extended spells, but Turbine decided to nickel and dime us on top of what we were paying.

    Second point is xp. Sure they gave us bravery bonus, and I can agree that you do not need pots to cap within a reasonable time, but Turbine is there to capitalize again. They will allow you to pay for an xp tome. They will allow you to pay for 50% xp pots.

    The problem with quest xp goes back to Amrath. House C quests, (not to mention bait and switch challenge xp). Why should they increase the xp in these quests if they can make you pay for them? They need money, and I can understand that, but this is P2W. Why do they keep nerfing xp in rusted blades and I demands? If you look close you will see that if you drink a 50% xp pot, you will still not be getting as much xp as when the quest was released. Why is that? Was the xp that OP or is Turbine just trying to fleece us?

    I can agree with you somewhat, but don’t pretend P2W is not here. If it were not Turbine would stop nerfing things just to sell them right back to us?
    I'm not saying that Turbine isn't encouraging players to pay for items that really aren't necessary. I'm saying that its not pay to WIN. You can accomplish the same goals without paying. If someone wants to buy items from the store to make it EVEN EASIER to play, who cares? If someone really has to drink store pots to be able to play, that doesn't say anything about me....

  17. #17
    2015 DDO Players Council MangLord's Avatar
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    Imagine trying to complete quests without your greensteel weapons, or dragonscale armor, or even any other named items. 95% of those are only obtainable with p2p quests. Can you even make it to level 20 without buying content?

    That is the definition of pay to win.

    ps....Turbine, as a profitable entity, has the right to charge for "premium" stuff. I regularly, pretty much always, pay for new content. However, I don't feel it's fair for a dedicated f2p fellow to be at an insurmountable disadvantage. I'd prefer payment was required to look cool and have a bit of an edge, as opposed to working towards survival.
    In fact, a friend of mine from about 6 months ago recently started playing again after their computer died, and I felt a world apart from them learning in the interim. In order to "win" you need to know how to exploit the quest. So many workarounds that I, as a DM, would not consider fair play. It's unfortunate that so many people take advantage that it becomes the rote way of completion.
    Last edited by MangLord; 06-03-2013 at 04:04 AM.

  18. #18
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I'm not saying that Turbine isn't encouraging players to pay for items that really aren't necessary. I'm saying that its not pay to WIN. You can accomplish the same goals without paying. If someone wants to buy items from the store to make it EVEN EASIER to play, who cares? If someone really has to drink store pots to be able to play, that doesn't say anything about me....
    Everyone should care.

    What will you say when the huge expansion is released (8 quests that all might not be epic) are released and they base xp for them is 2,000 xp? How much xp will we need to reach 28? With 8 (maybe not all be epic quests)?

    Turbine will keep adding quests with low xp just hoping that you will buy the epic tome upgrade to greater, they hope you will buy the 75% xp pot (coming soon).

    As to your point “EVEN EASIER”, it was easier until they took away what we had to. Just because you do not need mana pots does not mean nothing happened. They took away something we had and are selling it right back to us.

    If you and the OP’s response is that they need the money to keep the lights on (I don’t believe) but I’ll play along. What they need to do is stop the bait/switch and nerfing what was once ours and putting in stuff that people want.

    Lastly, I have never paid for a store mana pot. I also trade in the collectables for the 20% 6 hour xp pots. So the store has little bearing on how I play. BUT, other people are seeing this and people are walking away. Paying $30 for 8 quest and some fluff garbage? When the game does go under remember this post. All you are doing here is encouraging Turbine to quit giving us a good product, but telling them to sell it to us above what we are already paying for.
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    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    I also have been playing the game since the beginning (technically before). I am a casual player/altoholic, not a powergamer. I have never purchased anything from the store to increase the power of a character. Neither have the people in my static group who are also pretty casual. Yet we almost always run quests in an Epic bravery streak. What quests have been altered to account for "P2W" items?
    Saw a reavers fate elite today posted at levels 20-25....

    Shrouds take longer today with level 25s in the group than they did back when the cap was 16...

    I've lost interest in the demon queen over how many times they have changed it.

    My static group is 2 people. Occasionally three. Yes, we too can BB elite, but I'll be honest enough to admit that when we get to epic, we switch to epic hard for leveling. We don't do epic elite until we cap out and gear up (eveningstar and newer anyway.)
    /sigh

  20. #20
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    this argument always boils down to:

    Do you want to be able to buy it? No? then don't, problem solved. Can you tell when someone else bought it? No? Then whats the problem?

    Do you want to be able to stop others from buying it despite that it doesn't effect you and you can't even tell they bought it? Yes? Really? Then congratz, you just joined the ranks of such wonderfully close minded groups as religious people who don't want you to look at naked people in girly magazines, and pocket despots who don't want you to be able to buy a 64 ounce soda.

    Now the good news is if you can recognize that tiny "busy body" within you; you can do something about it. That can be as simple as "dude WTeefff I do not want to be like a prudish old lady, I need to live and let live" or as complex as getting some therapy.

    Just remember: if you can't even tell someone else bought something, it apparently does no harm to you for them to be able to buy it. So the sad but true fact of the matter is: if you still have a problem with it, then you are the problem with it.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-03-2013 at 02:59 AM.

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