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  1. #41
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Envy and jealousy are the name of the strawmen directed at those who have no refutation of arguments against pay to win, and would rather spend more time rules lawyering the definition of the term which has already been done for over a year now to no avail. I have yet to see an argument posted on these forums where someone was against p2w and was crying about how it isnt fair because someone could get ahead of them PERSONALLY.

    As for the claim of: The money goes toward fixing bugs!!! Mythbusters would have a field day.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    No, there doesn't have to be a way to make people pay. I don't know why some people who do pay get mad that there are people who don't. Everyone should make their own choice whether to pay and how much and not worry about what "the Jones" are doing. People who play for free don't hurt the game. If they did it wouldn't be allowed. People who never pay one cent still contribute to the game just by logging in. They bring the Massively to the MMO.

    Think about it: DDO used to be subscription (everybody must pay the same amount). Under that mode the game almost folded because it didn't make enough money. So they switched to F2P - purposefully making it so people could pay nothing at all if they wanted to. And they made twice as much money as from subscriptions! Even though there are people who don't pay anything they are still making more money than they would if they forced everyone to pay.
    I might be wrong but how I see it is that Free to Play is a marketting name to make you think it is free while at the same time there will be a bunch of restrictive stuff leading people to reach their wallets anyway. See the contradiction? Or... see what is happening? (Could just state stupid stuff like inventory space in some games... it's ridiculous with no way to earn "TP" equivalent)

    It is true that by making it free for very casual people unwilling to spend a dime on the game, it must help the playerbase in the end. But those that don't pay serves only that purpose and in the end a company tries hard to convert them into paying customers. That's their role in a f2p model. All the P2W aspect is naturaly helping any f2p game towards that achievement because of what the OP stated.

    Also by offering free TPs their are doing 3 things.

    1. Giving a taste of what you could get if you would actually drop more money
    2. Giving a chance to some dedicated players to really enjoy the full game for free over time.
    3. Offering themselves a nice defense when it comes to f2p

    What I meant in my previous post was from a business point of view and I am sorry if I wasn't clear about it.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 06-03-2013 at 12:53 PM.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Envy and jealousy are the name of the strawmen directed at those who have no refutation of arguments against pay to win, and would rather spend more time rules lawyering the definition of the term which has already been done for over a year now to no avail. I have yet to see an argument posted on these forums where someone was against p2w and was crying about how it isnt fair because someone could get ahead of them PERSONALLY.

    As for the claim of: The money goes toward fixing bugs!!! Mythbusters would have a field day.
    Not really... they are just NOT related with the fact that the f2p is killing the game. See the difference? Envy is when it comes to P2W and people actually not being happy about others getting stuff because they had it "the hard way"

    Restrictive **** and game breaking mechanics being thrown at you has nothing to do with that.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 06-03-2013 at 12:48 PM.
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  4. #44
    Community Member debo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xenobias View Post
    This isn't my normal type of post and I will probably get my hand slapped but I've had enough.

    There is no such thing as Pay To Win.

    What we have here are basically 3 groups of players.

    1st group is broke or so young they don't have a job.
    2nd group has a little bit of discretionary income. May spend a bit on in game perks.
    3rd group has money out the behind and will spend what they want to on making the game fun for themselves.

    But, even though the game's player base is pretty stagnant, even though we have people complaining about little to no LFMs, even though we have some servers with next to none logging in, even though this company is a for profit company and must pay their employees, we still see a very special group of people crying about Pay To Win.

    At first I thought that this didn't make sense. Quickly it became very apparent what was happening. 2 very powerful and very damaging human emotional traits were showing their ugly heads:

    Envy
    Jealousy

    Cmon people-we need those bugs fixed->Turbine needs to pay the programmers.
    We need updated and new content-> Turbine needs to pay the programmers.
    We need more players->Turbine will make sure to make the game as fun as possible.

    Since when is Turbine a non-profit? Answer->Never.

    But the Pay To Win complainers are so angry at a perceived injustice they don't see the truth.

    Their boisterous complaints put their jealousies and envious mentality out in the open for all to see.

    It also spotlights another thing->you people are leeches-proudly proclaiming that you pay no money towards this game. None what so ever and any one who does is devil spawn.

    P2W-is an infantile argument, untrue in every aspect, destructive and ignorant.

    If someone paying to have fun grinds you in the gut so bad you yell P2W like a nazi mantra then quit the game. We will all be better for it.

    Flame away you leeches.
    I've always thought about it like this: How does me having something effect you? Simple answer: It doesn't

    But people being people they will always find some injustice.

  5. #45
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Not really... they are just NOT related with the fact that the f2p is killing the game. See the difference? Envy is when it comes to P2W and people actually not being happy about others getting stuff because they had it "the hard way"

    Restrictive **** and game breaking mechanics being thrown at you has nothing to do with that.
    Envy is a strawman argument unless is it in direct reply to someone peeing and moaning about people getting stuff easier than they did - which is rare at best. I still see no evidence after massive store bought mana pot consumption, raid timer bypass consumption etc...that bugs are getting fixed faster than they were before.

    If f2p is killing the game its Turbines own fault. We have a game full of spreadsheet gamers, and they didnt see that players would find the most frugal money saving methods to play without having to pay to do so. It all looked good to the bean counters when those lump sum payments were coming in a few years ago, but then they turned a blind eye to the fact that the same people who paid lump sum now dont have to pay a dime. Many of them have enough TP piled up over the years that when the expansion is sold in the store, they wont pay a dime for that either.

    They traded lump sum payment up front for steady income, with the defenders claiming that the sub model wasnt working out. The sub model would have worked, if the quality of the game would have remained the focus. Once itemized p2w convenience itels became the focus, the income was no longer driven by the quality of the game, but how easily it could be beaten, and the more people paid, the easier it got. However, it also got more boring alot more quickly, having obtained what they wanted, and knowing another expansion wasnt going to drop for another 6-8 months, a good portion of the userbase found something else to do.

    Worry not however...when this new expansion drops, they will be back and willing to pay as much as needed to be the first to walk around in the market with the new shinies - before everyone else has them 2 weeks later.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  6. #46
    Community Member Burradin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Envy and jealousy are the name of the strawmen directed at those who have no refutation of arguments against pay to win, and would rather spend more time rules lawyering the definition of the term which has already been done for over a year now to no avail. I have yet to see an argument posted on these forums where someone was against p2w and was crying about how it isnt fair because someone could get ahead of them PERSONALLY. As for the claim of: The money goes toward fixing bugs!!! Mythbusters would have a field day.
    7 years later and I am still trying to find a way to Win this game(I log in almost everyday and play and never been gone more than a week in that 7 years). Since there seems to be no end, I can't win. BTW, before someone wants to crucify me, I rarely use the store and when I do, usually for some stupid armor kit or something. I even grind out my TR tokens instead of using the store, but could care less if someone else wants to purchase one. I can't see why people keep getting their panties in a bunch as person A using the store does not effect person B. But then, I mostly solo now a days and deal not with either......lol
    It is ok to hate me, I don't like me most of the time.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    I might be wrong but how I see it is that Free to Play is a marketting name to make you think it is free while at the same time there will be a bunch of restrictive stuff leading people to reach their wallets anyway. See the contradiction? Or... see what is happening? (Could just state stupid stuff like inventory space in some games... it's ridiculous with no way to earn "TP" equivalent)

    It is true that by making it free for very casual people unwilling to spend a dime on the game, it must help the playerbase in the end. But those that don't pay serves only that purpose and in the end a company tries hard to convert them into paying customers. That's their role in a f2p model. All the P2W aspect is naturaly helping any f2p game towards that achievement because of what the OP stated.

    Also by offering free TPs their are doing 3 things.

    1. Giving a taste of what you could get if you would actually drop more money
    2. Giving a chance to some dedicated players to really enjoy the full game for free over time.
    3. Offering themselves a nice defense when it comes to f2p

    What I meant in my previous post was from a business point of view and I am sorry if I wasn't clear about it.
    Ok, and I agree that it is Turbine's job to get people to spend money. The same with every single business in the world that sells a product.

  8. #48
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burradin View Post
    7 years later and I am still trying to find a way to Win this game(I log in almost everyday and play and never been gone more than a week in that 7 years). Since there seems to be no end, I can't win. BTW, before someone wants to crucify me, I rarely use the store and when I do, usually for some stupid armor kit or something. I even grind out my TR tokens instead of using the store, but could care less if someone else wants to purchase one. I can't see why people keep getting their panties in a bunch as person A using the store does not effect person B. But then, I mostly solo now a days and deal not with either......lol
    Right - but an english slang term has never been confined to meaning the sum of the literal definition of the words in the term. Im pretty sure by ow that everyone in p2w threads understands exactly what is meant when the term is used and are merely rules lawyering the definition due to lack of refutation of the real issue stated.

    Its never been an argument of one person being jealous of another person being able to pay for what the other had to earn. It has always been an observation that between expansions there is a lull as players get bored and find other things to do. p2w increases that lull time exponentially by taking the time restrictions out of the grind and removing any danger of failing. Some of those people come back when the new expansion drops, some dont, having attrited to other games or things in RL. The longer those people are away, the more time they have to find other things to do. It isnt hard to figure out where that leads.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #49
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its never been an argument of one person being jealous of another person being able to pay for what the other had to earn. It has always been an observation that between expansions there is a lull as players get bored and find other things to do. p2w increases that lull time exponentially by taking the time restrictions out of the grind and removing any danger of failing. Some of those people come back when the new expansion drops, some dont, having attrited to other games or things in RL. The longer those people are away, the more time they have to find other things to do. It isnt hard to figure out where that leads.
    And there are people who hate grinding and will quit if forced to do it. So having a limited amount of "P2W" (if people insist on calling it that) might also keep players. Presumably Turbine can look at metrics and determine whether their business model is successful. I'm not saying that they do, but it would certainly be the smart thing to do.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Right - but an english slang term has never been confined to meaning the sum of the literal definition of the words in the term. Im pretty sure by ow that everyone in p2w threads understands exactly what is meant when the term is used and are merely rules lawyering the definition due to lack of refutation of the real issue stated.

    Its never been an argument of one person being jealous of another person being able to pay for what the other had to earn. It has always been an observation that between expansions there is a lull as players get bored and find other things to do. p2w increases that lull time exponentially by taking the time restrictions out of the grind and removing any danger of failing. Some of those people come back when the new expansion drops, some dont, having attrited to other games or things in RL. The longer those people are away, the more time they have to find other things to do. It isnt hard to figure out where that leads.
    This is really the best argument I've heard against "P2W".

    Personally I don't have a problem with most of the shortcut purchases except for this fact (opinion) here. It's a point I've made before... grind is necessary to the survival of an MMO. The level of grind needed can be argued, but without some grind they just can't possibly produce new content fast enough to hold interest in the game.

    I think 2 years ago most people did not have issues with what you could buy in the DDO store. Still, I am of the opinion that most of that doesn't impact the game dramatically. Some of the shortcut items even encourage more grind... like otto's box might encourage people who wouldn't TR to go ahead and do it (repeatedly in many cases). This, as opposed to bypass timers, which I think on the whole will decrease grind (not for all, but for most).

    I also think attributing power creep to "P2P" is very misguided. Power creep is introduced through new content, more levels, ED's, the natural progression of meta-gaming. Basically any development/evolution that trivializes content causes them to make things harder.

    Now I DO have a problem with the shard AH, because it directly impacts my ability to trade my hard earned loot for someone else's, because people would rather sell it on ASAH to people willing to drop real $.

    I also agree that Turbine has, lately, been missing the mark on what they sell.

    Bottom line though, I don't think "P2W" is killing the game. I think many things are killing the game starting with age... old games die eventually. To me the biggest factor though is community. Ours has become less and less...communal. Less social. I blame streak bonuses and scaling the most for that of things that can be fixed, though there are other more organic reasons for it (like people not wanting to waste time with pugs because "noobs" makes content harder to complete and less enjoyable). I think the BYOH mindset has had a really negative impact here as well, as it promotes the idea that we're all soloers who might happen to run the same quest in the same instance, should it be convenient. For the most part P2W is a tool used by casual gamers who might otherwise leave the game because they don't have time to grind, and in that respect it's a very good thing. It just has to be kept within reasonable limits, and those limits are the real argument here.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its never been an argument of one person being jealous of another person being able to pay for what the other had to earn. It has always been an observation that between expansions there is a lull as players get bored and find other things to do. p2w increases that lull time exponentially by taking the time restrictions out of the grind and removing any danger of failing. Some of those people come back when the new expansion drops, some dont, having attrited to other games or things in RL. The longer those people are away, the more time they have to find other things to do. It isnt hard to figure out where that leads.
    Actually... it is an argument since it was what the OP is stating. You just failed to see what the thread was about and went on with your pre-programmed speech, ignoring everyone else and their positions.

    I'm sorry that you also fail to see that someone against xp pots or "buying time" means more than simply being against it. Unless it's a sheep, there is a reason behind that reasoning wether you like it or not.

    You are right about the danger of pushing this and driving players away faster than they would have if the pace was slower though. But some don't like slow pace so this is all pretty hard to measure. Everyday we can read on this forum that it takes too much XP to get to max level while leveling is actually the game itself (big part of it) and for most, the best part of it.
    That's just an exemple of how different people are and how you need to evaluate this a bit more before saying that it is all 100% bad because to you it is so.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 06-03-2013 at 02:52 PM.
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  13. #53
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    P2Win is not killing the game.

    Turbine is.

    If DDO had a compelling end-game and a new pack every month to keep people interested nobody would give a hoot about P2Win. Heck, Turbine wouldn't need to do this P2Win garbage if they didn't have this massive player exodus since U11 (Google it).

  14. #54
    Community Member Superhanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    P2Win is not killing the game.

    Turbine is.
    For some of us its the constant cynical player base that are never content, never happy and consistently find reasons to moan = like OP i mean honestly who cares about p2w, its usually the unskilled that need anything even remotely p2w
    then there is the live playerbase ingame who cant even act like normal human beings because they are on the internet so for some reason they act like fools and ruin others fun

    If you want to blame turbine for anything maybe it should be for knocking out content faster than people desire it and not fixing bugs asap.
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    No-one can win DDO. Its impossible. Oh sorry completionist says you won ddo but you don't get invited to ddo hq. If you P2W what actually do you win...........
    You cannot pay that that beholder to not attack you.
    You cannot slip the demon queen 20 qiud to let you kill her.

    Its the same as real life that neighbour has a bmw you have a rusty old nissan. He's then p2w?

    If anything it should be called 'pff'' (pay for fun).

    You should only pay what you can afford or want to.
    DDO is like a top notch £40 game you'd buy in a shop but its FREE. You can play for free as long as you want. They even give you TP which you can use to get more free stuff, £100's worth of stuff for free

    Adding it all up i spend less than a fiver a week. The last 2 years my xbox has sat gathering dust. DDO actually saves me money. 'p2s'( pay to save)
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhanns View Post
    For some of us its the constant cynical player base that are never content, never happy and consistently find reasons to moan = like OP i mean honestly who cares about p2w, its usually the unskilled that need anything even remotely p2w
    then there is the live playerbase ingame who cant even act like normal human beings because they are on the internet so for some reason they act like fools and ruin others fun

    If you want to blame turbine for anything maybe it should be for knocking out content faster than people desire it and not fixing bugs asap.
    I heard that real and good reasons that makes people quit the game shouldn't be used in the forum. They will be ignored because no one can debate them and will prefer walk around.

    While this is off topic... I just re-started playing the game. TRed in a class I didn't play in years and I never thought I would have so much fun re-doing the low level content for a 30th times. I also didn't fall on game breaking mechanics that were harsh enought to make me log out... but some still made me think about it. Necro 1 (6 torches one), I have to admit it took me time to realize that one of them was bugged (new bug) since I got hit I guess when using it. But it's still better (for me) than any other MMOs. Also when you take a break you are not so much behind when you come back. So i'd say it must be a really impressive game to keep people that spit on it everyday occupied.

    But it is the reasons you stated that has the real power to drive rational people away. Others just get fed by other's negativity and end up feeling it themselves as well. Like content. It took me courage to re-sub and if it wasn't for TRing and that I enjoy the heroic content, I would just have not came back and instead kept pursuing that guitar shredding dream of mine. ... What have I done .
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 06-03-2013 at 03:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    I might be wrong but how I see it is that Free to Play is a marketting name to make you think it is free while at the same time there will be a bunch of restrictive stuff leading people to reach their wallets anyway. See the contradiction?
    I don't see the contradiction.
    There does not need to be bunch of restrictive stuff forcing people to pay.
    All you need is fluff, glitter, the works. Pets. Try to guesstimate how much money people have spent, and continue to spend on the pets that do absolutely nothing?
    How much would you pay for armor dyes and good armor kits or haircuts? How much would people pay to have an upper case letter or a number in their name, bigger font for the overhead name, sparkles, visible capes, spiffed up light effects for their spells, bigger font for the crit numbers. Displaying your crits in other people's combat logs, in large red letters! Barrels that explode in a fountain of bacon, bacon flavored health potions, meme emoticons, new dances; the list goes on.
    Let's just say "tons" doesn't begin to describe it.
    Minor conveniences are also great. Like, say omnispell dust for 50c, enough to tide you through the quest when you forgot to restock, cheap enough that you'll never regret buying it, if you even remember - well worth not wasting minutes of playtime.

    Micro transactions are not about forcing people to pay. They're about providing thousands of people with an opportunity to pay. And the people pay because that's how people work.
    Like, someone could be buying a 5$ coffee every day and not think twice of it, and at the same time think that 1500$ is a lot of money and something they can't afford to just spend on a fancy coffee maker (that'd last years).


    Yeah, it's a complicated thing...


    Funny, I just realized it's somewhat like a company manager thinking getting 1000 customers to pay 100$ now is the best thing ever, and losing 1000 customers that'd be paying 10$ a month for next two years is no big deal.

  18. #58
    Community Member Superhanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    I heard that real and good reasons that makes people quit the game shouldn't be used in the forum. They will be ignored because no one can debate them and will prefer walk around.
    Too true, some will totally get it though and thats good enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindCakes View Post
    I don't see the contradiction.
    There does not need to be bunch of restrictive stuff forcing people to pay.
    All you need is fluff, glitter, the works. Pets. Try to guesstimate how much money people have spent, and continue to spend on the pets that do absolutely nothing?
    How much would you pay for armor dyes and good armor kits or haircuts? How much would people pay to have an upper case letter or a number in their name, bigger font for the overhead name, sparkles, visible capes, spiffed up light effects for their spells, bigger font for the crit numbers. Displaying your crits in other people's combat logs, in large red letters! Barrels that explode in a fountain of bacon, bacon flavored health potions, meme emoticons, new dances; the list goes on.
    Let's just say "tons" doesn't begin to describe it.
    Minor conveniences are also great. Like, say omnispell dust for 50c, enough to tide you through the quest when you forgot to restock, cheap enough that you'll never regret buying it, if you even remember - well worth not wasting minutes of playtime.

    Micro transactions are not about forcing people to pay. They're about providing thousands of people with an opportunity to pay. And the people pay because that's how people work.
    Like, someone could be buying a 5$ coffee every day and not think twice of it, and at the same time think that 1500$ is a lot of money and something they can't afford to just spend on a fancy coffee maker (that'd last years).


    Yeah, it's a complicated thing...



    Funny, I just realized it's somewhat like a company manager thinking getting 1000 customers to pay 100$ now is the best thing ever, and losing 1000 customers that'd be paying 10$ a month for next two years is no big deal.
    Micro transaction is about providing thousands of people with an opportunity to play BUT then the goal becomes "how to make them pay?". It is not every game's playerbase that is attracted by fluff, cosmetics and pets. Sure some people are but I would say not having such outdated graphics could maybe help me even think about paying for cosmetic. Actually, I would never pay for cosmetics I guess or at least have never been close from "tempted" so far. Not even something so I could see my character's boobs in TERA... and honestly those are flashy.

    Yeah... it might be a bit more complicated than you thought as well .

    Edit: The contradiction being how they offer you something for free then tries everything possible to milk you afterward once you're hooked.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 06-03-2013 at 03:58 PM.
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  20. #60
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Actually... it is an argument since it was what the OP is stating. You just failed to see what the thread was about and went on with your pre-programmed speech, ignoring everyone else and their positions.
    Nope. I saw exactly what the thread was about - the same old strawman argument about people supposedly being jelly over someone being able to buy what they had to grind. Ive refuted this countless times, and each time it is ignored and responded to with more of the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    I'm sorry that you also fail to see that someone against xp pots or "buying time" means more than simply being against it. Unless it's a sheep, there is a reason behind that reasoning wether you like it or not.
    And I posted what my reasoning is, and it is quite sound. Care to attempt to refute it, other than starting off with "you fail to see..." but not really providing any reasoning why what Im actually saying is supposedly incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    You are right about the danger of pushing this and driving players away faster than they would have if the pace was slower though. But some don't like slow pace so this is all pretty hard to measure. Everyday we can read on this forum that it takes too much XP to get to max level while leveling is actually the game itself (big part of it) and for most, the best part of it.
    That's just an exemple of how different people are and how you need to evaluate this a bit more before saying that it is all 100% bad because to you it is so.
    Please quote where I stated its 100% bad. Sounds like another strawman argument to me. I dont believe youll find that I ever took that position. Disagree? Show me where I said it.

    Pretty hard to measure in exact proportions, but take a gander at what happens in game between each expansion now. The times between when people start dropping off again and when they come back (expansion release) is getting longer and longer - because the game gets easier and easier. Turbine doesnt mind, because when they do come back for a few weeks they pay heavily into the system, sprining for timer bypass and mana pots all over again, in order to farm those new shinies before everyone else does. Once the boredom sets in shortly afterward however.....they are gone again until the next content drop. Turbine gets their money out of those folks easily enough. Only this time its different....why you ask? No raid.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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