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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    Endgame is, by definition, much less content than repeating the whole game via TR. Your logic is contradictory; you only want to play endgame (less content) because you don't like endlessly repeating content? The solution to avoid endlessly repeating content is to TR.
    That's your logic not mine. I enjoy endgame because it is more challenging. More challenging content is less irritating to repeat.

  2. #102
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    sarlona, what supposed to be "prime time" - 7:30 pm est on a saturday, posted a lfm for what i thought is a very popular low level quest: irestone inlet "elite bb streak", no class restrictions, levels 4-6, went to get ship buffs <<<3 minutes, waited 5 more minutes, no hits of the lfm, went ip, completed the quest solo =15 more minutes, still not a single person hit the lfm. at that point got curious and decided to keep the lfm up, went and completed the depths series, 15 minutes, freshen the air - 10 minutes, proof is in the poison - 20 minutes, altogether over an hour with the lfm up, not 1 hit, not even a newbie that i will have to carry to shrines (was expecting and prepared for those), not a person outside the level range - no one! it is horrifying! is it me? have been playing on that server for almost 4 years now, was on my "main" toon (currently clonk on his 6th life), don't yell at anybody, don't care if you join my group and die, what the hell is going on?!? game can't be that dead could it?
    Last edited by Gempoult; 06-09-2013 at 08:14 AM.

  3. #103
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    Gem - that's pretty much my experience exactly on Thelanis - I am 11th life tr and pug everything. I realised today that I have not been on DDO for 3 days - because I am expecting not to make a group when I log on I guess

  4. #104
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    I find that it varies on Orien. Sometimes it is indeed dead, on Friday I had a lfm up 9-11 elite Von3 for an entire hour with no hits. I did the whole 2nd half of sorrowdusk waiting for it to fill but nothing and that's one of the most popular quests at the level range. Then again a few hours later went up a couple levels with constant LFMs in the level range.

    For the person who said they are a problem solver not a TR advocate, ummm ok but how much problem solving can you do after you complete a quest? Content can never keep up with players. When epic GH came out there were tons of LFMs for about 3 weeks, right until they changed the fall of truth raid then everyone stopped running GH. People either had what they wanted from the pack or they were soloing EE for an item and the GH LFMs dropped off the ledge. I have a 12 life character that basically sits on the sidelines, what is there to run? Virtually everyone I know in the game sits at cap for about 2 weeks then TRs because they are bored. You will usually see an abundance of heroic LFMs but unless a new pack has been released you won't find epic LFMs aside from ED farms very often. Heck their next big thing, Epic TR more or less throws up the white flag for producing an end game and is just saying Epic TR is now the end game. If you don't like TRing Ddo really isn't the game for you because it seems clear that's what they view as end game.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffyanne View Post
    For the person who said they are a problem solver not a TR advocate, ummm ok but how much problem solving can you do after you complete a quest?
    I assume you are referring to this post by me:

    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post
    These are the key points on which we differ as players. I play to engage my mind, not to navigate monetized artificial barriers. I am a gamer in the sense of a problem solver seeking a challenging learning curve. I don't approach gaming from the perspective of a 'consumer' looking to add the 'gamer experience' to my resume of life.
    I was simply describing a philosophy of gaming which I adhere to, that works best for me and provides me with the most overall enjoyment. This was in response to posters who were advocating various forms grind which contribute to character development as being enjoyable for them. My point being that I'd rather be playing the challenging content now, rather than doing behind the scenes work to get to a point where I may feel comfortable attempting it. When content is challenging and risky, I will be having the most enjoyable experience. Grinding to make that experience as easy as possible, when I finally get around to it, isn't something I find engaging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buffyanne View Post
    Content can never keep up with players.
    In my experience as a gamer, challenging content has the best chance of keeping players interested. It's not just that I enjoy a challenging problem to solve, it's where we are most in our element as Human Beings and I think it feels good to exercise our natural ability. We are learning machines, with almost unlimited potential and there is very little that is beyond our capacity to achieve. In that light, I find arbitrary arificial barriers and grindy time sinks an insult to my intellect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buffyanne View Post
    When epic GH came out there were tons of LFMs for about 3 weeks, right until they changed the fall of truth raid then everyone stopped running GH. People either had what they wanted from the pack or they were soloing EE for an item and the GH LFMs dropped off the ledge.
    The reasons they stopped running GH as much as they had been were that FoT became harder and loot drop rates were scaled back across the board, as they always are after the first patch of an update. I don't think that people's solo'ing habits contributed in any significant way, those who were solo'ing continued to solo. In my opinion, the spell power nerf had way more of an impact on EE LFM's than the patch, which was a gamebreaker for many borderline useful EE caster toons, who found they went from being just good enough, to not quite good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buffyanne View Post
    I have a 12 life character that basically sits on the sidelines, what is there to run? Virtually everyone I know in the game sits at cap for about 2 weeks then TRs because they are bored. You will usually see an abundance of heroic LFMs but unless a new pack has been released you won't find epic LFMs aside from ED farms very often. Heck their next big thing, Epic TR more or less throws up the white flag for producing an end game and is just saying Epic TR is now the end game. If you don't like TRing Ddo really isn't the game for you because it seems clear that's what they view as end game.
    There's a ton of challenging content to run at cap, most people just don't enjoy the challenge. They would rather be spoon fed the fantasy RPG experience with minimal effort. TR'ing is an entirely different game, with different motivational factors than endgame is. For the most part, I find that the mentality of the TR crowd is about the social aspect, they really aren't interested in putting in the focus and effort to do short intense bursts of challenging gaming, they are more interested in comfortable, unchallenging grind that they have almost no chance of failing.

    At the end of the day it's entertainment, which is a massive industry that will always pander to the lowest common denominator. I was just outlining my perspective on the concept of gaming as a more serious hobby rather than an after work passtime or stress killer. The idea behind the philosophy being, that if you are going to put a significant amount of time into doing something, it is both natural and satisfying to be able to do it well.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    Gem - that's pretty much my experience exactly on Thelanis - I am 11th life tr and pug everything. I realised today that I have not been on DDO for 3 days - because I am expecting not to make a group when I log on I guess
    Majority of the players are not pugging anymore, or just some specific quests / raids. On heroic levels, almost every quests are soloable, and if you have a friend to play, you can manage all of them with hirelings. Just watch the Who tab in the LFM panel, and see how many players are in group... most of them didn't bother to post their groups for puggers. My advice is, search players for your level range, and if you see familiar people, ask them what they are running... maybe they will have a spot for you.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyriasys View Post
    Ya'll must be on the wrong server. On Thelanis we've got a full LFM. people dancing in the streets and everyone loves one another.
    Nice. Yes, that's Thelanis as I know it.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post
    That's your logic not mine. I enjoy endgame because it is more challenging. More challenging content is less irritating to repeat.
    Honestly there is nothing challenging in this game. Everything is easy mode, mang.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    No evidence would be something like on 6/3/12 there were x logins. On 6/3/13 there were y logins with x>y, and that tracked over a random sampling of days. Since neither he nor I can find that data he is making presenting a claim and the burden of proof is on him. Until he presents that proof I believe he is wrong as I do not have any of the problems he does. Now if he can bring those numbers I will be the first to admit I was wrong but without hard data he's just guessing, to be honest so am I but he's the one crying that the sky is falling.
    The graph that was provided is evidence. It doesn't need to be exact numbers - it's a graph, numbers are in it, it's visualized evidence. There is a very slight hill in the middle and otherwise almost no change from end to end. It's nearly flat. Without knowing who is responsible for the hill, and who is responsible for the hill fading, the best we can say is "the population of players, as represented by this graph, is roughly the same now as it was then."

    Using it to argue that the game is dying is simply spurious and deceptive.

    What we need is a graph that spans a full year or more - and to know the join dates of those leaving. That would tell us if long term players are leaving or if the game has high turnover of newbs.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by RightToRemainStupid View Post

    There's a ton of challenging content to run at cap, most people just don't enjoy the challenge. They would rather be spoon fed the fantasy RPG experience with minimal effort. TR'ing is an entirely different game, with different motivational factors than endgame is. For the most part, I find that the mentality of the TR crowd is about the social aspect, they really aren't interested in putting in the focus and effort to do short intense bursts of challenging gaming, they are more interested in comfortable, unchallenging grind that they have almost no chance of failing.

    .
    Is there a ton of challenging content? On Orien anyway raiding is pretty much dead compared to what it used to be. So if you aren't raiding at L25 what are you doing? I guess you can run EE for specific items, which is just a different form of grinding, and to me its worse grinding because your enjoyment of the quest boils down to a random drop roll if get that version of the EE item you want. When you are TRing there is a reward factor with every level. You can grind EDs at 25 which again is just another form of grinding. If there were a robust set of raids that were run at end game then I can see the point of staying at cap, but as there are not.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gempoult View Post
    sarlona, what supposed to be "prime time" - 7:30 pm est on a saturday, posted a lfm for what i thought is a very popular low level quest: irestone inlet "elite bb streak", no class restrictions, levels 4-6, went to get ship buffs <<<3 minutes, waited 5 more minutes, no hits of the lfm, went ip, completed the quest solo =15 more minutes, still not a single person hit the lfm.
    And I did exactly the same last night at around 10 pm and it filled in under 5 minutes.

    The LFM panel is highly variable.

  12. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gempoult View Post
    sarlona, what supposed to be "prime time" - 7:30 pm est on a saturday, posted a lfm for what i thought is[...]
    Saw your LFM, don't have a main type character at that level range though.

    It was a nice evening and went to see a movie instead.

    There was a TR couple in the guild, but they usually just ran with each other if I were not on.

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  13. #113
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    Default Not able to connect. This is why I am not around...

    Not able to connect. This is why I am not around...

    Maybe more in my situation...



    Quote Originally Posted by moomooprincess View Post
    Only a few are anonymous. The rest I leave up in case I want to join a PUG and I don't want to be shown as anonymous. I hardly get any tells anymore and very few blind invites. In 2007 thru 2010, it was quite nasty on the amount of tells.

    I would be in a party and get a tell. I send back, "I am in a party, would you like it if I was in your party then left to join another party?" I get back some interesting responses to that.

    I will accept some blind invites but continue what I was doing then drop group after a couple minutes so they can hopefully find a healer.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffyanne View Post
    Is there a ton of challenging content? On Orien anyway raiding is pretty much dead compared to what it used to be. So if you aren't raiding at L25 what are you doing? I guess you can run EE for specific items, which is just a different form of grinding, and to me its worse grinding because your enjoyment of the quest boils down to a random drop roll if get that version of the EE item you want. When you are TRing there is a reward factor with every level. You can grind EDs at 25 which again is just another form of grinding. If there were a robust set of raids that were run at end game then I can see the point of staying at cap, but as there are not.
    There are tons of EE's to run once you're close to cap and in a main destiny. I would rather be playing EE's than mindlessly TR'ing or ED farming. There is more strategy and fun involved in running the latest most challenging content than repeating years old content or farming a single quest hundreds of times over. Raiding has never really been challenging past the first week of their release, noone bothers running them on EE, there's no reason to. For me still, the most funs comes from random PUG's of EE's where the leader isn't too picky and there's a decent chance of failure if players aren't keeping their wits about them. I find that most players aren't confident enough to participate in that.

  15. #115
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    Default TR'ing Can Make and Old Quest Feel New

    Aside from the Past Life feats for TR toons, I find that running through familiar quests on a different class can make it seem like a different game. I have to change my approach, and I often need to find new solutions to old problems. Without fail, I need to learn the features of the new class. This is enough to keep the game interesting.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tscheuss View Post
    Aside from the Past Life feats for TR toons, I find that running through familiar quests on a different class can make it seem like a different game. I have to change my approach, and I often need to find new solutions to old problems. Without fail, I need to learn the features of the new class. This is enough to keep the game interesting.
    Except that most TR's are twinked to the eyeballs and have past lives so it's no challenge at all.

  17. #117
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Singular View Post
    The graph that was provided is evidence. It doesn't need to be exact numbers - it's a graph, numbers are in it, it's visualized evidence. There is a very slight hill in the middle and otherwise almost no change from end to end. It's nearly flat. Without knowing who is responsible for the hill, and who is responsible for the hill fading, the best we can say is "the population of players, as represented by this graph, is roughly the same now as it was then."

    Using it to argue that the game is dying is simply spurious and deceptive.
    First of all "now" is June 11, over 6 weeks past your "now" in the graph of April 27th

    I think only looking at two data points on a graph is intentionally deceptive.

    I think intentionally ignoring context and pointing to a couple weeks in late winter after the holidays when there had been no update for a long time, then comparing that couple weeks to late April a scant few weeks after Epic Gianthold, and reaching the conclusion of "flat" is more than a little intellectually dishonest.

    Then ignoring that the graph was clearly trending downward and that the last couple weeks have been more dead even than the dead zone at the end of april... Don't know what to call that? Wishful thinking perhaps?
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 06-11-2013 at 08:48 AM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    the last couple weeks have been more dead even than the dead zone at the end of april... Don't know what to call that? Wishful thinking perhaps?
    Prove it with data rather than anecdotal evidence.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Prove it with data rather than anecdotal evidence.
    Check your "Who" list when you sign on.

  20. #120
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Check your "Who" list when you sign on.
    Have never paid attention to it before so the data would be meaningless. Not to mention one moment snapshots can be misleading or abnormal. Data would have to be 24/7 for about a week and compared to the same time last year and the previous six months to have any real meaning.

    edit*

    Provide this data I'll happily well not really because it would be a bad thing for the game, admit that I was wrong. I just don't accept snapshot data and anecdotal claims as proof of DoooOOOOOOooooMMMM!!!!!111!!!!1!!!!!1!!

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