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  1. #1
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Wink Neverwinter's Foundry in DDO!

    I wish to have something similar as %subj%. I want to play user content. I want to create my own quest-chain with strong storyline. Let users can create campaigns, chains or raids.

    Let we have guild quests, guild chains or guild events!

    Devs, i want to see this feature in U20! You can win battle against "neverwinter D&D arcade game".

    I am prepared to pre-purchase DDO's quest editor ;-)

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art20/Epic8/Epic8 -> Rng10), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic8/Epic8)

  2. #2
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    It's a bad idea and will never work here they use to many custom tools and it would take to long to weed through the trash and not one game with user generated content has ever truly impressed me NWO certainly never will because the base game bites!


    This has been brought before and quite a few people like the idea but most agree the Huge amount of dev time that would be required would be better spent elsewhere on more useful and more universally appealing things

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  3. #3
    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    I can imagine most of the quests generated would involve either running to the end of a hall and get 30k, pull a lever upon entering the dungeon and getting 40k, doing a tile puzzle with only 1 tile and get 50k, etc etc.

    maybe even something like framework, kill 10 mobs get 10k xp, except they all spawn in a pit and you stand above them in a safe spot throwing firewalls down.
    Last edited by Lonnbeimnech; 05-31-2013 at 12:23 PM.

  4. #4
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    The engine is based on too many custom tools. It will not happen in the current rendition of DDO.

    However, I did finally figure out a way on how to make it such that UGC would not break any thing in the primary game at all, but it does require additional resources to be put aside from the parent company.

  5. #5
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    I can imagine most of the quests generated would involve either running to the end of a hall and get 30k, pull a lever upon entering the dungeon and getting 40k, doing a tile puzzle with only 1 tile and get 50k, etc etc.

    maybe even something like framework, kill 10 mobs get 10k xp, except they all spawn in a pit and you stand above them in a safe spot throwing firewalls down.
    Be serious, there should be rules. You can aslo use statistic to detect these "invalid" quest. Comunity has a lot of statistics AFIK, for example XPs per minute. Quests with very high of this numbers can be penalized. It is not hard task to find way how to prevent to do such a things

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art20/Epic8/Epic8 -> Rng10), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic8/Epic8)

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    Be serious, there should be rules. You can aslo use statistic to detect these "invalid" quest. Comunity has a lot of statistics AFIK, for example XPs per minute. Quests with very high of this numbers can be penalized. It is not hard task to find way how to prevent to do such a things
    You cant get those kind of statistics, though, without running the quest, multiple times, with different classes, etc.

    Yes, its possible that users could generate content, of course. But the screening and QA that Turbine would have to put them through would require more dev time than just developing new content themselves. Mostly because they'd have to be much more thorough looking for trojan horses and backdoors in UGC...they obviously dont have to worry about secret, purposefully exploitable mechanics in their own quests.

    UGC for art assets, though, I could support. Not sure how much dev time that would save, but the worst they have to worry about then is someone trying to sneak through a picture of boobies or something

  7. #7
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    Won't happen.
    The dog said so.




  8. #8
    Community Member delsoboss's Avatar
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    One more road block on the path to UGC is the fact that, as far as i remember, Turbine is producing canon content for the D&D settings in which we play.

    I may be enterely wrong on this, since i just remember vaguely something from the MotU launch and something i read when starting the game.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    It's a bad idea and will never work here they use to many custom tools and it would take to long to weed through the trash and not one game with user generated content has ever truly impressed me NWO certainly never will because the base game bites!


    This has been brought before and quite a few people like the idea but most agree the Huge amount of dev time that would be required would be better spent elsewhere on more useful and more universally appealing things
    I don't see anything more universally appealing than boatloads of content to play. DDO totally rocks but look what we've seen lately: 3 dungeons in the last 2 updates. That's how long?

    I'm sure there are obstacles but it would be nice if the developers and least looked into the possibility.

  10. #10
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    You cant get those kind of statistics, though, without running the quest, multiple times, with different classes, etc.

    Yes, its possible that users could generate content, of course. But the screening and QA that Turbine would have to put them through would require more dev time than just developing new content themselves. Mostly because they'd have to be much more thorough looking for trojan horses and backdoors in UGC...they obviously dont have to worry about secret, purposefully exploitable mechanics in their own quests.

    UGC for art assets, though, I could support. Not sure how much dev time that would save, but the worst they have to worry about then is someone trying to sneak through a picture of boobies or something
    You are still kidding, aren't you? Which trojan horses, which backdoors in UGC? Who want to give users ability to write UGC in C++? Who want to give users access the files outside the game? UGC means that you will able to create dungeon by the similar way as in PnP on a squared paper. Built up from predefined fragments. Outside areas can be simple terain (high) map with objects, trees, buildings, ... and simple scripting: "when player turns these four levers, a door on other side of the map opens". And some dialoges for NPCs. Nobody wants to make new monsters, new animations (game has a lot of animation sequencies). Nobody wants to create new gear! All chests in quest can give to you standard loot. Present game has system how to choose dificult depend on character level - challenges - or depend on size of the party - dungeon scaling.

    I only see problem with too easy quests giving you a lot of XPs. But you can handle it without need additional employments. Actually, this can be secured by Game Masters. New quests can be put into "beta testing phase" to be played with virtual XPs reward which will be converted to real XPS after new quest leaves "beta testing phase" into "production phase". System will be able to collect enought statistics to make decision whether the quest is too easy or not.

    About QA: You are also able to separate user quests and official quest which will not have impact to QA. (with appropriate disclaimer on the UGC)

    Quote Originally Posted by delsoboss View Post
    One more road block on the path to UGC is the fact that, as far as i remember, Turbine is producing canon content for the D&D settings in which we play.

    I may be enterely wrong on this, since i just remember vaguely something from the MotU launch and something i read when starting the game.
    I don't know which licence has Turbine for D&D. But it is strange. I never played PnP version of D&D, because this game has been never translated into my natural language, But we have similar game in Czech Republic (one can say "heavily inspired by D&D"), written by czech autors: "Draci Doupe" ~ Dragon Lair. (shrotcut DrD). The game may contain recomended worlds, a story background or legends for players need help with their imagination. But main objective of such a game-system is just user content. Every DrD party consists from players and one dungeon master, which prepared own story, own world and own legend with own quests. And this makes a lot of fun and a lot of diversity, flexibility and variety

    In social connected world, where ppls are able to share whole their life, we still have game with limitations at level equal to years when games Eyes Of The Beholder and Dungeon Master ruled the world. It has only better graphic and allows multiple players. Nothing more.

    (sorry for mistakes in my english)
    Last edited by Wanesa; 05-31-2013 at 04:17 PM.

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art20/Epic8/Epic8 -> Rng10), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic8/Epic8)

  11. #11
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Default Only 2 things happen with ugc

    1) It's exploited for xp.

    2) It's xp potential is so low no one runs it.

    I played nwo, some of the foundry content was really good, then the exploiters made all the speed leveling maps and even though they banned exploit maps as fast as they could, a new one would just be made. So they nerfnuked the xp and item drops in the foundry. I don't see how any ugc in an mmo can end any other way.

  12. #12
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    1) It's exploited for xp.

    2) It's xp potential is so low no one runs it.

    I played nwo, some of the foundry content was really good, then the exploiters made all the speed leveling maps and even though they banned exploit maps as fast as they could, a new one would just be made. So they nerfnuked the xp and item drops in the foundry. I don't see how any ugc in an mmo can end any other way.
    You actually say: UGC does't work, because they are doing wrong.

    or

    You say: UGC did work, but they made mistake and the same mistake will do Turbine, so it will not work too.

    Interesting logic

    What do you actually say?

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art20/Epic8/Epic8 -> Rng10), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic8/Epic8)

  13. #13
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    You actually say: UGC does't work, because they are doing wrong.

    or

    You say: UGC did work, but they made mistake and the same mistake will do Turbine, so it will not work too.

    Interesting logic

    What do you actually say?
    UGC doesn't work because of fundamental flaws in human nature where people will try to exploit. The only possible way to fix this, is massive oversight where every quest is pre-screened by a dev prior to it's availability to the public, or reducing the xp and loot of ugc to levels where it is not worth running it.

    edit*
    The oversight won't happen for any mmo because it would cost a small fortune to hire people to do this.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    You are still kidding, aren't you? Which trojan horses, which backdoors in UGC? Who want to give users ability to write UGC in C++? Who want to give users access the files outside the game? UGC means that you will able to create dungeon by the similar way as in PnP on a squared paper.
    Ugh...."trojan horses" and "backdoors" mean more than just malware. I meant designing mechanisms in the level that, if you know how to work them, allow you to subvert the system. Ie, putting in a certain spot that, if you have enough Jump, you can jump to a different ledge and circumvent most of the level and rush to the end.

    It would not be apparent to any gametesters who dont know to specifically look for it, but once it goes live, you know about it and exploit it.

  15. #15
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    It seems to me that this would be most excellent.

    Of course, it would need it's own server, where characters aren't allowed to transfer to other servers. That should do nicely to filter exploit-ridden content.

    If a module gets enough positive feedback, THEN it can be reviewed by Turbine. But not even by a paid employee. There are plenty of players that care enough about this game to do that for them. For free. I believe that with the "lively" discussions on these forums, not one single exploit-ridden module will get through to the main servers. This could possibly even be done on Mournlands so the investment in another server could be sidestepped.

    Then the content would come rolling in and the game would thrive. Because for alot of us it is all about the amount of quality content. Many of us would play fun new content of any level just for the fun - no new uber lewt needed.

  16. #16
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonko_the_sane View Post
    It seems to me that this would be most excellent.

    Of course, it would need it's own server, where characters aren't allowed to transfer to other servers. That should do nicely to filter exploit-ridden content.

    If a module gets enough positive feedback, THEN it can be reviewed by Turbine. But not even by a paid employee. There are plenty of players that care enough about this game to do that for them. For free. I believe that with the "lively" discussions on these forums, not one single exploit-ridden module will get through to the main servers. This could possibly even be done on Mournlands so the investment in another server could be sidestepped.

    Then the content would come rolling in and the game would thrive. Because for alot of us it is all about the amount of quality content. Many of us would play fun new content of any level just for the fun - no new uber lewt needed.
    You think mournland testers do so for any reason other than to find the exploits there so they can exploit them right when they go to live?

  17. #17
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Ugh...."trojan horses" and "backdoors" mean more than just malware. I meant designing mechanisms in the level that, if you know how to work them, allow you to subvert the system. Ie, putting in a certain spot that, if you have enough Jump, you can jump to a different ledge and circumvent most of the level and rush to the end.

    It would not be apparent to any gametesters who dont know to specifically look for it, but once it goes live, you know about it and exploit it.
    1) with sufficient statistics, you are able to detect this sooner then quest becomes "mature" (went to live, or production)

    2) There are many official quests with such a spot - Let Sleeping Dust Lie, Impossible demands, Trial by Fury, Nobody take care of that.

    You can also "don't give" to UGC ability setup quests XPs. Using sufficient statistics, system can calculate XPs itself. It can use average XPs per minute at quest level (determined from average CR of monsters and bosses) multiplied by average time need for complete. After aprx. 100 random runs of various parties, system will be able to determine this averages. Until 100 runs is achieved, parties receive and accumulate virtual XPs which will be converted to real XPs right after the quest matures (and this virtual XPs can be stored in adventure compendium )
    Last edited by Wanesa; 05-31-2013 at 05:39 PM. Reason: typos

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art20/Epic8/Epic8 -> Rng10), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic8/Epic8)

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanesa View Post
    2) There are many official quests with such a spot - Let Sleeping Dust Lie, Impossible demands, Trial by Fury, Nobody take care of that.
    That actually proves the point. Turbine can't even keep up with fixing all their own quests to avoid these issues unintentionally popping up. (And yes they do fix these frequently but it's a matter of priorities and severity of the spot) Dealing with people putting these issues in on purpose would be a nightmare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    You think mournland testers do so for any reason other than to find the exploits there so they can exploit them right when they go to live?
    Yes, I think some of the folks are there for other reasons. One of those reasons is to help make the game better. The viewpoint that all players are out to exploit all the time is not true in my experience.

    I'm glad that's the only flaw you see in that idea. They should run with it. Really, a seperate server for UCG would be all that is needed. They could auto-collect stats from that server to see which quests are worth a closer look, as Wanessa states.

  20. #20
    Community Member Wanesa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    That actually proves the point. Turbine can't even keep up with fixing all their own quests to avoid these issues unintentionally popping up. (And yes they do fix these frequently but it's a matter of priorities and severity of the spot) Dealing with people putting these issues in on purpose would be a nightmare.
    Disagree - I think, that these bugs doesn't hurt game system so much to have motivation to fix them. And this is all about it. Having one player or party using such spot will not hurt the game. Using this spot by all players can be easy detected making quest no longer available in production.

    I am saying that devs in NWO doing wrong.

    No comments to my other suggestions?

    Thelanis: Shewind the Airbender (Sorc20/Epic5 -> Bard20/Epic8 -> Rog20/Epic8/Epic2 -> Harper_FvS20/Epic4 -> Art20/Epic8/Epic8 -> Rng10), Azaxe (Rog18/Wiz2 -> Sorc20/Epic8/Epic8)

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