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  1. #1
    The Hatchery Rawrargh's Avatar
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    Default Rant: Knowledge and Drama

    When I first started playing this game, I jumped right into it with 3 friends, we were all completely new and ended up completely gimped, the other three decided to quit around level 10-12 but I stuck around, endured the long haul to 20 and Tr'd with a backpack full of trash and knowledge that I had gained through out the game from my mistakes and more importantly from reading the forums.

    Now I'm on my 8th life on my very first toon, having spent a long time at cap on the lives I really enjoyed. I try my best to pass on the "good community feeling" that I experienced when I first started. I ussually open my lfm's to anyone, I help new players get through the quest, even going out of my way to pick up a soulstone and throw out a res if someone gets lost and I try to pass on what I've learned to those willing to listen (that sounded way too sagely).

    That's the kind of community I was met with when I was a complete noob, straight out of Korthos. Never have I experienced an mmo community who were so happy to help, and trust me, I've been around.

    A big part of this community were the forums, it is a plethora of knowledge, full of well-thought-out builds, people willing to share their knowledge about the game.

    Now a days though... Not so much.

    All the time I've been playing I've been an avid reader of the forums, mostly lurking, occasionally posting, but for the past couple of months 9 out of 10 of the newest posts have been angry people calling turbine and their employee's names, people letting other people know that they quit/refuse to pay for the game or just complaints about how there is no pugging going on.

    What happened?

    Why did YOU, the community go from being helpful to being drama queens? And most importantly, how did everyone and their grandmother become self proclaimed experts on coding? Am I the only person here on the forums who wouldn't know what to do if I were told "fix the bugs"?

    I still enjoy the game, I'll keep playing it and keep filling my pugs, the guild I'm in will keep leveling at a pace that fits our activity, I'll keep paying my 25$ every 3 months for my VIP, but I think I'm gonna cut back on my forum browsing.

    /rant off

    Imash on Argo
    -The mash on Argo
    In Soviet Russia Shroud trust in YOU!

  2. #2
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    In my opinion this shift became much more noticeable with bravery bonuses. New players are much more of a detriment to experience and speedy leveling than ever before. People get very upset when they lose xp. Even in small amounts. This is also part of the reason why in quest optionals are becoming more and more irrelevant. I do them for fun, not because I'm trying to get xp. More experience in finishing as many quests as possible on elite in one hour than actually taking the time to enjoy the game or assist others in that enjoyment.

    Again, this is just part of the problem.

    That being said, I still regularly group with players that actually want to play the game. These are always PUG groups.

  3. #3
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    I don't see bravery as a huge detriment to new players, I see more all welcome groups now than when I started. When I started every third lfm was no -10% or don't die listed on it. That was way more off putting.

  4. #4
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rawrargh View Post
    When I first started playing this game, I jumped right into it with 3 friends, we were all completely new and ended up completely gimped, the other three decided to quit around level 10-12 but I stuck around, endured the long haul to 20 and Tr'd with a backpack full of trash and knowledge that I had gained through out the game from my mistakes and more importantly from reading the forums.

    Now I'm on my 8th life on my very first toon, having spent a long time at cap on the lives I really enjoyed. I try my best to pass on the "good community feeling" that I experienced when I first started. I ussually open my lfm's to anyone, I help new players get through the quest, even going out of my way to pick up a soulstone and throw out a res if someone gets lost and I try to pass on what I've learned to those willing to listen (that sounded way too sagely).

    That's the kind of community I was met with when I was a complete noob, straight out of Korthos. Never have I experienced an mmo community who were so happy to help, and trust me, I've been around.

    A big part of this community were the forums, it is a plethora of knowledge, full of well-thought-out builds, people willing to share their knowledge about the game.

    Now a days though... Not so much.

    All the time I've been playing I've been an avid reader of the forums, mostly lurking, occasionally posting, but for the past couple of months 9 out of 10 of the newest posts have been angry people calling turbine and their employee's names, people letting other people know that they quit/refuse to pay for the game or just complaints about how there is no pugging going on.

    What happened?

    Why did YOU, the community go from being helpful to being drama queens? And most importantly, how did everyone and their grandmother become self proclaimed experts on coding? Am I the only person here on the forums who wouldn't know what to do if I were told "fix the bugs"?

    I still enjoy the game, I'll keep playing it and keep filling my pugs, the guild I'm in will keep leveling at a pace that fits our activity, I'll keep paying my 25$ every 3 months for my VIP, but I think I'm gonna cut back on my forum browsing.

    /rant off

    Imash on Argo
    Because it seems to many of us that Turbine no longer cares about this game we love.

    More bugs introduced with each new patch and only a fraction ever get fixed.
    Unwanted and pointless mechanics being introduced.
    Lack of communication from the devs!
    Mess of a enhancement system.
    The whole forum revamp has been pretty much universally opposed.
    The dastardly way the latest XP pack has been marketed.

    I'm not complaining about the above, just trying to answer your question.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rawrargh View Post
    Why did YOU, the community go from being helpful to being drama queens? And most importantly, how did everyone and their grandmother become self proclaimed experts on coding? Am I the only person here on the forums who wouldn't know what to do if I were told "fix the bugs"?
    I still find helpful posts in the Class forums and Build forums. General Discussion often has posts like what the latest DDO coupon is. However General Discussion has more and more complaints because DDO has more and more bugs. And not only are there more bugs, but there are more bugs that SHOULD have been prevented because they were found on Lammania and reported. Some were even acknowledged by the developers on Lammania and they stated those bugs would not make it to live. Yet they did.

    The players are frustrated that the game they like, just like you, is doing so badly. What you don't understand is that it would be much, much worse if no one was complaining. Because that would mean that no one cared. When people who don't care get fed up, they just leave.

    As for being an expert on coding, you don't have to be an expert on anything to know when something is broken. Do you have to be a professional chef to complain because you got your food cold?

  6. #6
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    There are a lot of factors that change the personality of the Masses.

    I started out with only the 3.5 knowledge I had when I first started in '06. I learned many lessons some taught and some by hard knocks.

    I myself turned around to teach others and treated DDO as a past time and not an extension of work. Mainly because at the end of the day does it really matter if you ran a Quest 12 times in an hour? personally I enjoy meeting people both those that have been around a long time and those fresh off the boat.

    The -10% haters were off their rockers when that whole craze started, rest assured everyone has taken a death or two that has played long enough. But when XP trumps Fun it is really time to re-examine your gaming philosophy.

  7. #7
    Intergalactic Space Crusader Livmo's Avatar
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    Default Yee Haw!

    Dear OP,

    I liked your post very much!

    I started playing in Dec. 2012. I've played lots of game over the years off and on. I built my first computer with spare parts in 1980's. Did some MMO back then when an ancient red dragon was a D on the text based graphics or in text. I think in those days I was running around with an 8086, 8088, and C=64. I started with a 300 baud modem back then (massive 8 bit card). I'm so happy I found DDO!!!

    I was unable to join forums and post until the recent updates. In my experince my DDO got better after all these updates. I'm sorry to hear it was not a boon for others, but rather the opposite.

    Since I'm now able to post in forums I've decided to be the change I want to see. However, I did find myself starting to get sucked into hater land on one of my posts. I'm glad I realized that. I try to be more community in my posts and not a hater.

    Its been my observation that allot of posters are haters. With that said it will take allot of time for things to change. Perhaps one player at a time, when the haters leave and those that feel the glass is half full stay. Basically the neighborhood will change over time and I hope the next generation of posters are better people.

    This game is off the hook awesomness! I'm thankful for a chance to play everyday. Nothing in life is guaranteed. DDO hits the spot for me. Until I found DDO in Dec. Icewindale II was my last postive DnD game exp.

    DDO is much more fun than the MMO versions I played in my childhood. It sure beats a capital D for an ancient red dragon and the * being used for smoke. I do miss my staff of earthquake from Unix Moria

    On a random side note as I strolled down memory lane I found a site where you can get Unix Moria from back in the day. Here is the link:

    http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_D...8video_game%29

    Stay positive,

    Liv


  8. #8
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    I believe the reason for the dramaqueen attitude the forums show is caused by people having done most things too many times. The result is that people start seeing the downside with everything, since they cant enjoy the game anymore. They see it teleologically, instead of something to enjoy. The journey is an annoyance they must suffer to get to a goal that no longer satisfies when they reach it.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  9. #9
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    I believe the reason for the dramaqueen attitude the forums show is caused by people having done most things too many times. The result is that people start seeing the downside with everything, since they cant enjoy the game anymore. They see it teleologically, instead of something to enjoy. The journey is an annoyance they must suffer to get to a goal that no longer satisfies when they reach it.
    It's not just that, you have things like today's launcher error, or other major bugs happening more and more and more lately. You have things like the company forgetting to renew their name and the resulting dns issues last year. You have the stuck in a wall bug for months making the game almost unplayable. I love ddo, it's probably my favorite mmo out of all of them I've ever played, that said the way turbine as a company has been operating lately makes me constantly question if I should really give them any more money, because they may not be here in a month.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    I believe the reason for the dramaqueen attitude the forums show is caused by people having done most things too many times. The result is that people start seeing the downside with everything, since they cant enjoy the game anymore. They see it teleologically, instead of something to enjoy. The journey is an annoyance they must suffer to get to a goal that no longer satisfies when they reach it.
    Yeah. this must be the answer.

    It can't have anything to do with problems with the game say like.....Oh I don't know.....The launcher going into an endless loop after the players found the problem on the LAM server and pointed it out before it could go live.

    Yep. you are right in retrospect...... We have done the Turbine effed up thing too many times and are now just sick and GD tired of it enough to let them know how terrible they are. My bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Codog View Post
    [*]Small evolutionary change that can be completed in shorter stretches of time is more readily achieveable for us than large _revolutionary_ change. Revolutionary change can be rather destabilizing from an engineering and balance perspective.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    It's not just that, you have things like today's launcher error, or other major bugs happening more and more and more lately. You have things like the company forgetting to renew their name and the resulting dns issues last year. You have the stuck in a wall bug for months making the game almost unplayable. I love ddo, it's probably my favorite mmo out of all of them I've ever played, that said the way turbine as a company has been operating lately makes me constantly question if I should really give them any more money, because they may not be here in a month.
    Well said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Codog View Post
    [*]Small evolutionary change that can be completed in shorter stretches of time is more readily achieveable for us than large _revolutionary_ change. Revolutionary change can be rather destabilizing from an engineering and balance perspective.

  12. #12
    Community Member bartharok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forummuleonly View Post
    Yeah. this must be the answer.

    It can't have anything to do with problems with the game say like.....Oh I don't know.....The launcher going into an endless loop after the players found the problem on the LAM server and pointed it out before it could go live.

    Yep. you are right in retrospect...... We have done the Turbine effed up thing too many times and are now just sick and GD tired of it enough to let them know how terrible they are. My bad.
    The errors do not annoy everyone to the same degree. The ones that most annoyed by them are annoyed by most other things as well. This is why i made that statement.
    Dystopia = utopia achieved

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    The errors do not annoy everyone to the same degree. The ones that most annoyed by them are annoyed by most other things as well.
    People who are used to nice things (or even average things) are getting annoyed at quite a few things that Turbine has done this year. My guess is that people who have nothing, or next to nothing, are quite content with something that is struggling to be mediocre. Unfortunately, people who have nothing or next to nothing are probably a poor source of revenue for Turbine to continue to run this game.

    @OP: What you are seeing is simply a reflection of what has happened to the game in general. This used to be a great game. It has some really innovative features: active combat, character customization, it even was the first game to have micro transactions. Unfortunately, all of those innovations happened long ago, likely conceived and implemented by people who have long since left Turbine.

    The current employees seem to alternate between flat out breaking the game (yesterday's poorly implemented and apparently untested patch) and degrading the best features of the game (the planned, poorly conceived, enhancement pass.)

    That puts a lot of players in the position of being here for what the game used to be, not what it is and what it is becoming. And yes, those players tend to come onto the forums and ask Turbine (sometimes not in the most polite language) just what in the world they are doing. That should be relatively easy to understand.

    It certainly doesn't help that Turbine employees occasionally come onto these (and other) forums, puff out their chests, and proclaim that they are experts and really good at their jobs. When one looks at the debacles of just this year alone:

    1) The 3 day down time (of the entire game!) just to do a billing product "upgrade"
    2) The "upgraded" billing product going berserk and billing some people hundreds of times, draining their bank accounts of their entire balance (and more)
    3) The ridiculous decision to degrade customer security by requiring the usage of the same log in info for both the forums and the game
    4) The roll out of the new forums, which over a month later still lack some of the functionality of the perfectly acceptable old forums
    5) A new "expansion" that is really just 2 updates squashed together, designed to make VIPs pay for content and to trap the unwary to preorder it before they realize just how little they are getting in return.

    That's one debacle per month, and I'm not sure I even listed them all. I simply got tired of typing. I really wonder if some people realize what the word "expert" is supposed to mean.

    In reality, you probably just have to hang on a while longer. The game is bleeding customers at a fairly good clip. Even some of the noted Turbine defenders. One is apparently now playing NWO. Another one has turned "evil", because he simply couldn't stomach what Turbine was doing anymore. Soon, you'll be able to wander through the game and the forums without the sound of dissenting voices, or many voices at all for that matter.

  14. #14
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rawrargh View Post
    Why did YOU, the community go from being helpful to being drama queens? And most importantly, how did everyone and their grandmother become self proclaimed experts on coding? Am I the only person here on the forums who wouldn't know what to do if I were told "fix the bugs"?
    Yes, it is all my fault.

    I am to blame.

    Thos 20+ years of writing software on Microsoft platforms, in multiple languages, and multiple business sectors did nothing but feed my false confidence in knowing how computers work, the inner workings of system APIs, and methods to writing reliable, and fairly bug-free code. In retrospect, this was nowhere near enough time to learn such concepts. I can see where proffering advice and opinions on this subject could be considered sheer arrogence and an act of unmitigated gall.

    I...I...feel so...ashamed.



    (sob)

  15. #15
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Again, I think there needs to be a rule - maybe passed by a UN council - that forbids posting on forms with negativity in mind. All posting on forums should be nothing but stroking one another on how great everything is, and how great we all are.

    We are swell. DDO is swell-er. There is no such thing as lag. I like the fact that it looks like I'm shamelessly humping a ladder and never getting to the top.

    Unicorns, rainbows, and My Little Ponies all around!!!

  16. #16
    Uber Uber Completionist
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    Elite streak and XP loss from deaths is definitely one of the issues that many people (often myself included) are reluctant to have first timers in their party.

    You have multi-TR characters not wanting to lose XP from newbie deaths, but you also have newbies under the mistaken assumption that they need to be doing Elite streaks.

    Here's my solution from suggested quality of life changes we would like to see

    • Remove any party XP loss caused by the death of any first life toon in your party.
    • Remove any party XP loss caused by the death of any second life toon in your party, make this a personal XP loss only.
    • On a first life toon, give the "Elite bravery bonus streak" XP on Normal, Hard and Elite Difficulties.
    • On a second life toon, give the "Elite bravery bonus streak" XP on Hard and Elite Difficulties, and the "Hard bravery bonus streak" on Normal difficulties.
    • On a third life toon, keep the current Elite and Hard streak XP exactly as it is.
    Allow this. Give first life toons an easy run through their first life. Encourage them to TR and go again with the benefit of their experience.

    For veteran players with new toons, it helps them shoot through their first life. Big deal.

    If you really wanted to be radical, remove any party XP penalty for deaths, and just make it personal XP loss only.
    Last edited by Deadlock; 05-31-2013 at 11:42 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Yes, it is all my fault.

    I am to blame.

    20+ years of writing software on Microsoft platforms
    I'm sure you know, but in some development circles, that would be akin to you manning the Death Star.

  18. #18
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rawrargh View Post
    When I first started playing this game, I jumped right into it with 3 friends, we were all completely new and ended up completely gimped, the other three decided to quit around level 10-12 but I stuck around, endured the long haul to 20 and Tr'd with a backpack full of trash and knowledge that I had gained through out the game from my mistakes and more importantly from reading the forums.

    Now I'm on my 8th life on my very first toon, having spent a long time at cap on the lives I really enjoyed. I try my best to pass on the "good community feeling" that I experienced when I first started. I ussually open my lfm's to anyone, I help new players get through the quest, even going out of my way to pick up a soulstone and throw out a res if someone gets lost and I try to pass on what I've learned to those willing to listen (that sounded way too sagely).

    That's the kind of community I was met with when I was a complete noob, straight out of Korthos. Never have I experienced an mmo community who were so happy to help, and trust me, I've been around.

    A big part of this community were the forums, it is a plethora of knowledge, full of well-thought-out builds, people willing to share their knowledge about the game.

    Now a days though... Not so much.

    All the time I've been playing I've been an avid reader of the forums, mostly lurking, occasionally posting, but for the past couple of months 9 out of 10 of the newest posts have been angry people calling turbine and their employee's names, people letting other people know that they quit/refuse to pay for the game or just complaints about how there is no pugging going on.

    What happened?

    Why did YOU, the community go from being helpful to being drama queens? And most importantly, how did everyone and their grandmother become self proclaimed experts on coding? Am I the only person here on the forums who wouldn't know what to do if I were told "fix the bugs"?

    I still enjoy the game, I'll keep playing it and keep filling my pugs, the guild I'm in will keep leveling at a pace that fits our activity, I'll keep paying my 25$ every 3 months for my VIP, but I think I'm gonna cut back on my forum browsing.

    /rant off

    Imash on Argo
    On the forums I try to be helpful. At the very least I try not to misinform.

    As far as "Drama" threads I think it is a way for people to vent. And the reason you are seeing so many deals with psychology. Once you post something, and others read it and realize that their feelings aren't "their own" but are shared by others, they post also.

    I still enjoy the game and will probably play until I find something better, like anyone else. But hopefully this answers your questions.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartharok View Post
    I believe the reason for the dramaqueen attitude the forums show is caused by people having done most things too many times. The result is that people start seeing the downside with everything, since they cant enjoy the game anymore. They see it teleologically, instead of something to enjoy. The journey is an annoyance they must suffer to get to a goal that no longer satisfies when they reach it.
    Maybe that's true for some people but it is definitely not so for me and some of my friends that play. I am an altoholic and despite my join date there are some things in DDO that I have never even done once. I spend a lot of time crafting, planning toons, shopping, etc. I don't grind or farm. But I have been around long enough to see the increasing lag, bugs and focus on making money over quality of the game.

    I recently did Proof is in the Poison for only the third time (hate that quest). We were over level for favor and we still had to be very careful to make sure nothing could damage us as we pulled the levers so we wouldn't have to redo the quest. It is definitely BUGS and LAG and Turbine hiring people to make silly fluff instead of hiring more people to fix bugs/lag that causes me to complain.

  20. #20
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Many of us that have been here for 6+ years are just a little upset that Turbine has gone in the direction that they have. Back in ’08 or so, we were all VIP and Turbine would give us their all. Our $15/month got us everything. We received “full game entertainment”.

    Now (even if you pay $15/month), you have to pay more if you want the “full game entertainment”.

    I am also not worried about having to pay $30 for an expansion. This is not even the biggest concern about. My question comes as to where all the P2W has gone? If Turbine improved the game from all the money, then we are all good, but from all that I have seen, it has not happened.
    Flabby-Flaber-Flabo--Heifer-Oinks

    LEGION

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