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  1. #281
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    Default All guilds shooting up to 100 is a myth that isn't supported by math

    I don't agree that decay should stay in.

    Comparing to the old system, the reduction of decay mainly helps large guilds level fast not small guilds. Large guilds have much larger renown earning potential and a 400 person guild already received over 95% reduction in decay so decay was effectively removed as issue for the mega guilds.

    As for small guilds, how fast they get to 100 depends largely on what level they are stuck at which is also based on much renown they earning.

    Under the current system a level 55 guild stuck at 55 would gain 2 levels in one year if decay was removed entirely.

    A level 60 guild stuck at level 60 would gain 2-3 levels in one year if decay was removed entirely.

    A level 70 guild stuck at level 70 would gain 5-6 levels in one year if decay was removed entirely.

    A level 80 guild stuck at level 80 would gain 7 levels in one year if decay was removed entirely.

    For comparative purposes, a 400 person guild stuck at level 60 under the old system would gain over 30 levels under the new system and the entire reduction of decay would allow them to gain only 1 more level. They are going to get to 100 relatively quickly regardless of whether decay is removed or not. All the removal of decay is allow all guilds to get to 100.

    The removal of decay primarily benefits large guilds, but they've already realized most of that benefit from the change in October. The current system balance problems are making it difficult for smaller guilds to recruit and keep their members happy. It punishes guilds for running at a slower pace because renown is based on drops but decay is a fixed daily amount.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
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  2. #282
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Default About half a month into the thread...

    Time for a little round-up.

    We started here in order to get some official reaction from Turbine. Renown decay is a controversial topic. Therefore a big thank you for all contributors to stick to the topic and not to start flame wars here. This kept the thread alive so far.

    We could argue than meanwhile Turbine had some limited form of reaction by MajPal starting to ask for input here. There had been a lot of discussion going on in that thread, but of course this slowed down the official guild renown thread here.

    While asking for input certainly is a good start, we are still missing some official Turbine output on these questions:

    1.) What is the purpose of renown decay after the autumn 2012 change?

    2.) What is planned to do with guild renown / renown decay in the future?


    We really would love to see something more than a placebo question by admitted one of Turbines most profound and communicative team members. Therefore, I hope this thread will be kept alive until we get answers.

    Edit: I know that there are some Topics more urgent than guild renown. I am well aware that ETR and the Enchancement Pass are burning hot and we have to do our best to stop Turbine ruining the game for many a player. But we are waiting for answers from Turbine for about half a year now on guild renown. They already spelled their doom on the small guilds. And at least one suggested solution for the problem just needs the change of one single variable (set decay=0) so would be easy to implement. Therefore, with all the looming doom for players in the future, we are not allowed to forget about the daily doom for our vast majority of players in small guilds. Let´s keep the preassure on Turbine alive, for a better DDO.
    Last edited by Nestroy; 06-16-2013 at 12:50 AM.

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    Let´s keep the preassure on Turbine alive, for a better DDO.
    Yes. While the other potential change/introduction has very, very bad implications and should be spoken out against and hopefully changed, the current system for small guilds has been in place for months with no word - and has already caused problems in many guilds.

    Let us not forget this issue, even while we're also aware of other potential concerns.

    Please, Turbine. Let us get decay removed from the game, for a better game experience.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  4. #284
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    Was it a year ago that they had the Build Your Guild event? I'm sitting in a supermarket cafe atm, so can't check back in our guild renown log.

    Maybe instead of reintroducing that event for this summer, Turbine could just do an experiment and turn off the renown decay for a month or two, measure the impact that it has, and see for themselves that it hasn't broken the game in any way and that we're better off with renown decay just turned off completely?

  5. #285
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Was it a year ago that they had the Build Your Guild event? I'm sitting in a supermarket cafe atm, so can't check back in our guild renown log.

    Maybe instead of reintroducing that event for this summer, Turbine could just do an experiment and turn off the renown decay for a month or two, measure the impact that it has, and see for themselves that it hasn't broken the game in any way and that we're better off with renown decay just turned off completely?
    +1 for the idea.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Was it a year ago that they had the Build Your Guild event? I'm sitting in a supermarket cafe atm, so can't check back in our guild renown log.

    Maybe instead of reintroducing that event for this summer, Turbine could just do an experiment and turn off the renown decay for a month or two, measure the impact that it has, and see for themselves that it hasn't broken the game in any way and that we're better off with renown decay just turned off completely?
    +1

    Or even try cutting it in half to see how that works.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Was it a year ago that they had the Build Your Guild event? I'm sitting in a supermarket cafe atm, so can't check back in our guild renown log.

    Maybe instead of reintroducing that event for this summer, Turbine could just do an experiment and turn off the renown decay for a month or two, measure the impact that it has, and see for themselves that it hasn't broken the game in any way and that we're better off with renown decay just turned off completely?
    Knowing human nature the problem with this approach is once the time expires, even if Turbine thought it was better before while the players don't, it'll be hard to reverse without much more whining. But good idea.

  8. #288
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschooldragon View Post
    +1

    Or even try cutting it in half to see how that works.
    Cutting renown decay in half would be a start, but it would in truth solve nothing. Most small guilds would be able to gain another few levels before the decay load again would have reached the old heights and they then would stall again. Then the same problem as now would rise again, except for the small guild having gained the few levels. A guild now stalling in the lv. range of the 60ies would then stall somewhere in the 70ies.

    Even worse to take back the decision to halvethe renown decay:All the small guilds have won in the time of less decay they now would loose. There would be an outcry.

    To my mind either kill renown decay completely or leave the system as it is, declaring superlagre guilds to be the wanted state of the game. But please, Turbine, tell us!

  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    To my mind either kill renown decay completely or leave the system as it is, declaring superlagre guilds to be the wanted state of the game. But please, Turbine, tell us!
    Yes. If Turbine truly wants to go back on their word about not preferring any size of guild, at least they should have the decency to tell us.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  10. #290
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    Our guild is small. We have 3 or 4 people who play at least a couple of times a week, and one or two more who play once a week for a static group event. In addition, we're a satellite of a larger multi-game guild and so we get others drop by from other games every so often.

    Instead of being happy to have people join us even just once or twice in a blue moon, we get annoyed when these occasional players bump our "active account" count up far enough to change our "small" size bonus to "medium" meaning the people who play daily have a much harder time just keeping up with decay never mind progressing towards the next level.

    Thinking "argh, why are there more people playing right now!" is kind of antithetical to the whole point of a guild, isn't it?

  11. #291
    Community Member Thlargir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nestroy View Post
    (set decay=0)
    Disclaimer: I have capped characters on most servers, am a member of a guild on only one (a very small level 78 guild), though I rarely use ship buffs, and have never really noticed decay.

    For those folks who believe decay should be removed, why stop there?

    Surely (set decay=-1000) would suit your purposes better? A simple one line fix, that everyone benefits from (even those who simply sit on their thumbs). It would benefit Turbine as they could sell so many more amenities to so many more people as even the lamest guild will be leveling up. Furthermore, it would encourage the construction of many more smaller guilds, and thus increase sales further.

    In fact, Turbine could raise prices for guild accessories as folks would be guaranteed that their hard work would not be lost.

  12. #292
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    *sigh*

    The guild I belong to is now stagnate - two major active players are gone for a year (One deployed - the other the spouse).....

    New blood is just helping to fight decay... but that is all.

    Growing frustration - and it is starting to show.

  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Was it a year ago that they had the Build Your Guild event? I'm sitting in a supermarket cafe atm, so can't check back in our guild renown log.

    Maybe instead of reintroducing that event for this summer, Turbine could just do an experiment and turn off the renown decay for a month or two, measure the impact that it has, and see for themselves that it hasn't broken the game in any way and that we're better off with renown decay just turned off completely?
    this was asked and Turbine responded about a month ago (maybe 2 - IIRC it was Cordovan)

    Turbine has no plans for another BYGE - at least in the foreseeable future. I like the BYGE - but think they will hold off until they get the referral program back up and running since these go hand in hand.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thlargir View Post
    Disclaimer: I have capped characters on most servers, am a member of a guild on only one (a very small level 78 guild), though I rarely use ship buffs, and have never really noticed decay.

    For those folks who believe decay should be removed, why stop there?

    Surely (set decay=-1000) would suit your purposes better? A simple one line fix, that everyone benefits from (even those who simply sit on their thumbs). It would benefit Turbine as they could sell so many more amenities to so many more people as even the lamest guild will be leveling up. Furthermore, it would encourage the construction of many more smaller guilds, and thus increase sales further.

    In fact, Turbine could raise prices for guild accessories as folks would be guaranteed that their hard work would not be lost.
    Nobody is asking for free renown. People just don't want their earned renown taken away based on an arbitrary formula that isn't fair to small guilds.

    You bring up an outstanding example of the problem we are having though. If someone plays on another server we get no renown and yet decay keeps on going and our small guild bonus is also reduced as a result. If a person in our guild only logs on once or twice per month to our server and other servers the rest of the month, why do we get decay every day?

    Decay should be set to 0 because Turbine can never properly calculate it. If they want to slow down leveling they should increase the level ranges instead of using decay.

    I am still trying to understand the purpose of decay. I also want to understand why it's ok for large guilds to get 100 but it's not ok for all guilds to get 100? Why is Turbine afraid to answer these questions?

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschooldragon View Post
    Nobody is asking for free renown. People just don't want their earned renown taken away based on an arbitrary formula that isn't fair to small guilds.

    You bring up an outstanding example of the problem we are having though. If someone plays on another server we get no renown and yet decay keeps on going and our small guild bonus is also reduced as a result. If a person in our guild only logs on once or twice per month to our server and other servers the rest of the month, why do we get decay every day?

    Decay should be set to 0 because Turbine can never properly calculate it. If they want to slow down leveling they should increase the level ranges instead of using decay.

    I am still trying to understand the purpose of decay. I also want to understand why it's ok for large guilds to get 100 but it's not ok for all guilds to get 100? Why is Turbine afraid to answer these questions?
    I agree completely.

    Turbine, come out and say something meaningful. Months of silence on this matter is not constructive.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschooldragon View Post
    Nobody is asking for free renown.
    Hmmm, that was why I brought it up. It seems to meet your goals even more completely than the zero decay idea presented, so I was wondering why it has not been suggested already? Especially as this is my understanding of how guilds level in LOTRO.

    I suppose that ones answer to this dilemma depends on what renown is supposed to represent. If it is a vehicle for Turbine to sell more and better amenities then it does not really matter how the renown is acquired, as long as it flows fast enough for folks to have more stuff to buy.

    If, however, one believes that renown is somehow a measure of how many heroic deeds the members of a guild have pulled off in a given period of time then clearly a large casual guild should have more renown than a small casual guild.

    Perhaps an agreement can be found that it serves neither purpose very well.

  17. #297
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    wish the Dev's would treat this thread (or the original) like they are with EPIC TRing.....

  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    wish the Dev's would treat this thread (or the original) like they are with EPIC TRing.....
    Unfortunately it won't happen. When I first heard the news about ED XP, I txt'd my guildmates immediately (they are out "testing" that other game, but our general consensus was that DDO was better)
    We're of the opinion that the ED Xp problem is a "deal-breaker" for us. Not that we'll stop playing- but that we'll no longer TR.
    Each of us has 4 sets of characters (that make up that particular level).

    I'm still hoping that they understand that rather than stranding my guild at 61, they really should help me "throw money at them" for the Large Luxury Airship. Cause I'll buy the Heck out of it.

  19. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov View Post
    wish the Dev's would treat this thread (or the original) like they are with EPIC TRing.....
    They effectively responded to that thread by saying things are up in the air, they understand the concerns and need time to work it out.

    Let's give them a few weeks to respond to the Maj monday thread. The overall feeling on decay is crystal clear in the Maj Monday thread. If there is no response in a few weeks it would appear the decay isuse once again ignored and courteous and calm discussions on the subject will not persuade Turbine.

    The epic destiny TR loss issue is primarily a big issue to the power gamer types that have all.most of their destinies maxed out. If they are unhappy they let loose as we saw in the epic tr thread. The decay issue is mainly an issue for more casual players and people that accept casual players into their guild. If things get too unpleasant they will just leave the game rather than rant and rave on the forums. Turbine has no clue why people stop playing the game or stop buying things,

  20. #300
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unacceptable View Post
    They effectively responded to that thread by saying things are up in the air, they understand the concerns and need time to work it out.

    Let's give them a few weeks to respond to the Maj monday thread. The overall feeling on decay is crystal clear in the Maj Monday thread. If there is no response in a few weeks it would appear the decay isuse once again ignored and courteous and calm discussions on the subject will not persuade Turbine.

    The epic destiny TR loss issue is primarily a big issue to the power gamer types that have all.most of their destinies maxed out. If they are unhappy they let loose as we saw in the epic tr thread. The decay issue is mainly an issue for more casual players and people that accept casual players into their guild. If things get too unpleasant they will just leave the game rather than rant and rave on the forums. Turbine has no clue why people stop playing the game or stop buying things,
    I wonder, too. At least for my guild I know that I lost several players, to bigger guilds or completely out of DDO, courtesy to the renown decay.

    Would be nice, though, if MajMal could give a weekly Monday update, if only telling "still out for other topics so no big further information this week"...

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