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  1. #141
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    That is strange because I get renown options 100% of the time in epic Forgotten Realms quests that don't have a heroic counterpart as long as there is no ransack penalty (tales of valor or better to be a bit more precise). If I view them before renown ransack, I always get them after leveling. Perhaps something changed recently - if so that will really be disheartening because it's not even possible for us to hold a level without this banking option. I always bank Impressive Trophy or Legendary Victories when banking end rewards and they are always there when claiming after the ransack.

    Perhaps we are doing something slightly differently that is causing this discrepancy. Or perhaps this was a stealth nerf because we could still gain levels... I hope not the latter.
    Slarden, I had this problem the last 2 levels so this certainly is nothing too new. While I did it wrong certainly the first time because I did not check before banking, last time I certainly checked because I reported my renown back to my guild.

    But then again, there might be one other possibility as well - we had several server downtimes the last time we leveled... I certainly would suspect this as well - or perhaps I am completely wrong because the reward lists for rewards not being picked up are held on the Servers for eternities... But if Turbine holds anything on the servers forever, I do not wonder about lag any more...

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    Ransack and level penalties occur at the time you view the reward. I am 100% certain of that. If I miss a reward and find it many levels later, there is never guild renown there unless I previously viewed it and left it.
    I guess it's possible I looked, but I find it unlikely as I can't think of why I wouldn't have just grabbed it at the time.

  3. #143
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    Unhappy

    signed.
    Turbine said they would look into it months ago. It is affecting our guild, what's left of it in any case. Getting to a level 55 ship (from level 51) will take several years instead of many months... The morale of the guild is getting worse due to this. And people are leaving since decay is such a huge factor for this small (and at this rate, might go down to tiny...) guild. And since not a higher level guild, recruiting has gone poorly. With the massive advantage the large guilds now have, it is ridiculous. I'd push for no guild decay at all, or at most only decay when the guild is inactive after a month.
    Without decay, I would expect that would need to add minor medium guild size bonus (starting at level 15? to level 100?) so each additional person will always be slightly beneficial (in general).

    Anyway signed for Turbine to do something about this. Decay is not good for the game.

  4. #144
    Community Member Nestroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drevok View Post
    signed.
    Turbine said they would look into it months ago. It is affecting our guild, what's left of it in any case. Getting to a level 55 ship (from level 51) will take several years instead of many months... The morale of the guild is getting worse due to this. And people are leaving since decay is such a huge factor for this small (and at this rate, might go down to tiny...) guild. And since not a higher level guild, recruiting has gone poorly. With the massive advantage the large guilds now have, it is ridiculous. I'd push for no guild decay at all, or at most only decay when the guild is inactive after a month.
    Without decay, I would expect that would need to add minor medium guild size bonus (starting at level 15? to level 100?) so each additional person will always be slightly beneficial (in general).

    Anyway signed for Turbine to do something about this. Decay is not good for the game.
    Hello Drevok,

    thank you on your very good statement.

    May I invite you, and all other contributors on this thread to discuss any of your very good ideas in this thread from the Official Discussions, too? We need any positive ideas and contributons over there as well - if we want to be taken seriously by Turbiine.

    This petition here is a campaign for an official reaction on the guild renown decay desaster from Turbine. More than "reading Thread", that is. The official ideas and proposals thread is in the official discussions and lives from your input. Thank you for helping in making DDO a better place!
    Last edited by Nestroy; 06-02-2013 at 02:11 AM.

  5. #145
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Putting in decay to guild levels was stupid from day one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkofDrasnia View Post
    Putting in decay to guild levels was stupid from day one.
    I agree with this more and more. Decay only antagonizes players, acting as an irritant to players who don't "measure up" to Turbine's arbitrary activity standards.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  7. #147
    Community Member ShotByBothSides's Avatar
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    /signed

    Small guild would like to hear from Turbine, please!

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    The major recent change you're overlooking is the change to decay and the rise of high level superguilds. By the time a new player reaches level four, they've been invited to a high level guild. These same high level guilds pick off veteran players from other small guilds. This results in a high level guild with an active population that has enough people in all level ranges to fill all grouping needs.
    This is from another thread about the reduction in LFMs but I think it's accurate. I also think it's a fairly expected outcome when you strongly favor one guild size over another. I didn't anticipate this problem when the guild system was changed, but I certainly agree that jalont's assessment here is accurate. Unfortunately not everyone wants to be or will be invited to a large guild. Some will be accepted on a trial basis and booted out.

    I think the net result will be more attrition compared to a system where people were free to choose their guild and its size with no penalties for playing too slow.
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  9. #149
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    From the threads leading up to the grossly unfair changes enacted last October, was the members of large guilds saying how they had to cut out the dead weight and murder their friends by kicking casuals out of the large guilds (of coarse this was always after the huge mass of casuals had helped the large guild reach lvl 70+ in a remarkably short period of time compared to their small guild counterparts).\
    The rationale being that this act of booting all the casuals was hurting the game because the casuals would leave the game. I found at the time of coarse that statement mostly false, the casual players still played, generally joining small guilds of people who were friends they could count on to not treat them so badly.

    The current system on the other hand leads people to feeling they are treated grossly unfair, which does lead to people feeling fed up and actually leaving the game. Seeing large exclusive guilds who only take vets, or huge mega invite guilds with no actually personal connections can be very disheartening to a casual player.

    A fix to the system which doesn't make smaller casual guilds feel the depressing weight of a renown debt they cannot ever overcome would be in the best interest of the game at this point in time.
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    While it's not difficult to figure out, it's a mindless, stupid and eye-bleeding grind. It's not too hard to figure out that is not what this game needs right now. 2-3 million karma ok, there's some pain for your gain. But really, the EPL's are not worth the pain of 6 million XP in off destinies/sphere's.
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  10. #150
    Community Member SilkofDrasnia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cernunan View Post
    From the threads leading up to the grossly unfair changes enacted last October, was the members of large guilds saying how they had to cut out the dead weight and murder their friends by kicking casuals out of the large guilds (of coarse this was always after the huge mass of casuals had helped the large guild reach lvl 70+ in a remarkably short period of time compared to their small guild counterparts).\
    The rationale being that this act of booting all the casuals was hurting the game because the casuals would leave the game. I found at the time of coarse that statement mostly false, the casual players still played, generally joining small guilds of people who were friends they could count on to not treat them so badly.

    The current system on the other hand leads people to feeling they are treated grossly unfair, which does lead to people feeling fed up and actually leaving the game. Seeing large exclusive guilds who only take vets, or huge mega invite guilds with no actually personal connections can be very disheartening to a casual player.

    A fix to the system which doesn't make smaller casual guilds feel the depressing weight of a renown debt they cannot ever overcome would be in the best interest of the game at this point in time.
    Your mistake is looking at this from only one point of view. Step back and look at the big picture. If they go one way or the other one group or the other we feel like they are being treated unfairly.

    Now in these threads you have people that will lean one side or the other (small or big guilds) and which way they lean is more than not influenced by what kind of guild they are in and prefer.

    The truth is it is unfair to both groups, both groups have valid points, and decay should take a permanent vacation. This is the only way to solve the issue.

    The only people that will feel this is not "fair" is the elitist group that feels they are special snowflakes and no one else should have a lvl 100 guild. This group though is never happy anyways, stuff is never hard enough, nerfs are never strong enough and grinding is too easy etc etc etc, they will complain no matter what so who cares.

    I personally don't mind the way it is now but then I am in large guild with many casuals
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    Insulting the development team is not allowed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak
    Somebody should definitely explain to Turbine that when they roll up a new GM that INT is not dump stat.

  11. #151
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    /signed for Dev response
    /not signed for decay removal
    /signed for bringing back the old true decay
    (as you can see it's quite different things)

    I like decay!
    It's something that keeps me farming those EE chests.
    Anyway, renown doesn't occupy inventory or bank slots

    I would like to have the real decay back.
    Sadly it was nerfed a lot (large guilds have almost no noticeable decay now).

    Now every large guild is moving fast to lvl 100.
    It's almost no decay now, unless you are in a small guild.

    If decay will be removed I will have one less reason to play (limited inventory/bank space is more important reason ofc).
    Decay discourages game breaks though.

  12. #152
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    /Signed

    And where do I sign the petition to do away with guild renown?

    Many good points have been raised by both "sides" of the guild renown divide. But this should NOT be a zero-sum situation between "large" guilds and "small" guilds. If smaller guilds are being penalized under the new system, then that situation most certainly should be rectified and immediately.

    I'm not at an expert at the math involved in guild decay, either the new or the old. I argue, however, that no one mathematical formula will result in guild decay ever being a universally useful tool in promoting increased participation in the game. There are too many types of players; and these players have still more complex motivations. There are too many premises -- sociological and psychological -- that can be satisfactorily quantified within our current understanding of psychohistory. ;-)

    Of the many good points raised throughout this thread by both "sides" of an unnecessary David and Goliath battle (meaning, of course, us players versus woeful Turbine's customer relations), the one that nails the issue on the head (for me) is this one comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Drevok View Post
    The morale of the guild is getting worse due to this {renown decay}.
    Guild decay should not transform Dungeons & Dragons from a game into a sweat shop where everyone has to slave away producing guild renown just to stay in the same place. We are humans, not lab rats! And no one wants to log into this game and says "Ugh, where do I go to get renown today?"

    The point was made much earlier in this thread that renown decay is the wrong focus; and that renown gain should be the proper concern for Turbine. Agreed.

    As a corollary, I argue that guild decay is not the issue, but rather guild morale. If guild decay is resulting in players becoming demoralized, then it is in Turbine's best interest to reexamine this issue.

    Unfortunately, last year's fiasco with the Guild Renown Contest* fully demonstrates that Turbine's grasp on this issue is less than satisfactory. As this matter has not yet been raised in this thread, a quick reminder: For a six or so week period last May and June, Turbine offered exceptional bonuses to guild renown rewards. In my guild, many players took a very active part in this special event. Thanks to their hard work over a course of weeks, we jumped from level 66 to level 73 during this special event, a big jump considering that over the previous 15th months our guild had managed to gain four levels. (It was also a big jump toward that Level 85 guild ship, already purchased with astral diamond contributions by many guild members ... but that's another story.)

    Of course, once the special event was over, guild decay began to eat away at all that effort done with good will and in great zeal. Many guilds now had "inflated" guild levels, and lot of conflicts erupted between guild members. Some guilds attempted to established renown goals/quotas for everyone to obtain everyday; some guilds attempted to deal with the decay issue by jettisoning older accounts. In our guild, at least one immature player bolted to higher level guild rather than "suffer" from the now-persistant guild decay, taking a group of his freinds with him. By the time the dust settled, owing to the complexities of human sociology and psychology, our guild actually dropped all the way back to level 62.

    Had Turbine any grasp on social psychology, they never would have offered a contest where the rewards would be taken back over the course of time thanks to the mechanism of guild decay. (I'm a fairly nice guy. But I do hope the person responsible for the contest has been suitably demoted, if only in fairness to the many frustrated players who quit the game altogether during the "dark" months that followed that ill-conceived contest. I, for one, know of many players who quit at that time, and whose guilds all but imploded because of conflicts arising out guild decay.)

    The changes made to renown decay last fall should have been one and one only: Eliminate guild renown decay altogether.

    There should be only four ways that guild renown declines. (1) When players leave a guild voluntarily, they should have the option of taking none, some, or all their renown with them. This allows some players who no longer may have the time to play to exit gracefully. It also give players the freedom to be jerks in quitting a good guild, or to be good in quitting a jerk guild. (2) When guilds want to boot jerks from their guild, in which case all renown is lost. (Is any jerk really worth the renown they have added to the guild?) (3) When a guild wants to voluntarily boot inactives. (4) The auto-booting by Turbine of players from a guild after one year of inactivity.

    AND, an important cavaet: In the last two cases, an option should be provided to the guild and its leader to "buy out" the renown contribution of inactives, after three (six?) months in case (3) above, and the stated year in case (4). Consider it a Guild Stock Buyout Option, and an incentive for Turbine to do away with guild renown decay. If players are willing to buy guild renown elixirs, as well as invest astral diamonds toward guild ships, would they not also reinvest in their guilds by acquiring other players earned renown? The corporate analogy may be apt. After all, guild renown is sort of like "shares" in a company; very like the stock companies floated for the adventurous undertakings involved in the exploration and colonization of the New World.

    I'm not sure this is the best idea. But anything is better than the constant problem of guild decay.

    -- A player with Medium Guild Augments, and proud of it.

    * If the dates and details of this contest are somewhat lacking, I regret to say I am still struggling with the new forum and its internal search engine. And btw, where the devil are the color controls? Writing dark grey on light grey is tough on the eyes.

  13. #153
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drevok View Post
    signed.
    Turbine said they would look into it months ago. It is affecting our guild, what's left of it in any case. Getting to a level 55 ship (from level 51) will take several years instead of many months... The morale of the guild is getting worse due to this. And people are leaving since decay is such a huge factor for this small (and at this rate, might go down to tiny...) guild. And since not a higher level guild, recruiting has gone poorly. With the massive advantage the large guilds now have, it is ridiculous. I'd push for no guild decay at all, or at most only decay when the guild is inactive after a month.
    Without decay, I would expect that would need to add minor medium guild size bonus (starting at level 15? to level 100?) so each additional person will always be slightly beneficial (in general).

    Anyway signed for Turbine to do something about this. Decay is not good for the game.
    Can someone run the numbers on this please? How much decay does a level 51 guild get a day? My understanding is that it's very small... If I'm wrong, and it IS difficult to get to a level 63 guild... then I will definitely jump over on the other side and say that something needs to be changed with decay...

    But what's the number? How much decay per day does a level 51 guild get anyway?
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  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Can someone run the numbers on this please? How much decay does a level 51 guild get a day? My understanding is that it's very small... If I'm wrong, and it IS difficult to get to a level 63 guild... then I will definitely jump over on the other side and say that something needs to be changed with decay...

    But what's the number? How much decay per day does a level 51 guild get anyway?
    For a level 51 guild it's 2388 per day. You play often enough, have played long enough and are accomplished enough that you may not be familiar with how a typical small casual guild operates.

    When I was newer to the game we would meet up and run one dungeon in a night on casual or normal. It would take us a few hours to group up and play as we moved very slow. We would typically get almost no renown at all except for monster kills because you get less renown drops on lower difficulties. Renown just doesn't drop much in chests at lower difficulties. We tried to take renown as end rewards whenever possible but sometimes couldn't because we didn't have enough plat to pay for our repairs.

    The next time you log on take a look around at how many guilds are below level 63. Maybe to the harbor and marketplace. Those are the people you may be playing with at end game next year. The guild system is extremely discouraging as you can tell from the comments in this post. Why have a mechanic that is likely to reduce the pool of players next year? For people that care about their guild, losing renown for not playing fast enough or at high enough difficulties is just as bad of an experience as losing xp for not playing fast enough or at high enough difficulty levels.

    All guilds complained about decay vigorously for the past 2 years. There was always new threads on it in the general forum every time I used to check. Large guilds had the same issue with their mix of vet and casual players. Small guilds still struggle with that issue. There is nothing wrong with a guild of casual players. I learned nothing back then when I ran with vets that stormed through the dungeons. I learned the game because I grouped with and played with friends that took our time in the dungeons rather than just following vets and not having a clue what was going on. I think groups of casual and new players should be encouraged and not discouraged with a decay system designed for vets. It's fine to level slower, but the game shouldn't take away progress.

    Another person proposed applying decay as part of the drop system so renown was always net positive. This would allow casual players to at least advance if they play at a slower pace.
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  15. #155
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    #SIGNED

    Yes to answers

    yes to getting rid of decay

    Yes to common sense and a system that is fair to all players

    I haven't logged in for two weeks because I've been so frustrated with decay. it is the one thing in this game that makes me mad enough to quit the game. Every time I think of logging in I am reminded of decay and lose interest.

  16. #156
    Community Member MoonlitSilver's Avatar
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    /signed

    I would like to know if the devs are still paying attention to this issue, and whether there's an open possibility for change.

    I'm personally in the "make decay go away" camp as well. The whole notion of losing levels or xp (and that's really what renown is, guild xp) rubs me wrong from the start, and with smaller guilds getting stuck on one level because they can't overcome a day's worth of decay+ransack after leveling shows that the particular implementation of an already off-putting idea has just made things worse. I like to solo, and I've had my own little mostly-solo guild for a few years now; sometimes my brother drops in when he's playing the game. The progress is slow. I don't mind that. I really don't. If I'm playing mostly on my own, slow progress compared to groups of hundreds of players (or even just fifteen or twenty like the small guilds) is just plain obvious. This is how I like to play, so this is how I'm playing it. I'm kind of curious what guild level I'll get to before decay kills my ability to move forward; right now I'm something like 31. 'Course, not losing that xp in the first place would be better. I'd even be tossing some TP at renown pots if not for decay; getting to keep what I earn is a nice incentive to actually work for it in the first place.
    Furthermore, I believe that the bugs and lag must be fixed.

  17. #157
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonlitSilver View Post
    I'd even be tossing some TP at renown pots if not for decay; getting to keep what I earn is a nice incentive to actually work for it in the first place.
    That's a good point...

    Ah well I guess I'm for removing guild decay altogether now...
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    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  18. #158
    The Hatchery
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonlitSilver View Post
    I'd even be tossing some TP at renown pots if not for decay; getting to keep what I earn is a nice incentive to actually work for it in the first place.
    Very much this!

    If decay goes away, renown pots suddenlt becomes much more attractive to me.

    And think of all the small guilds finally reaching the higher levels where they can spend even more TP buying the new ships.
    It's definitely an N-word.

  19. #159
    Community Member Arnez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    Very much this!

    If decay goes away, renown pots suddenlt becomes much more attractive to me.

    And think of all the small guilds finally reaching the higher levels where they can spend even more TP buying the new ships.
    Decay is what makes me shameful of wasting points on guild renown pots. We *really* wanted that level 55 ship too and split the astral diamond cost amongst 4 of us.

    We're no longer going to buy pots or astral shards as now that we've reached 60 we can probably expect to plateau soon (hopefully at 63).

    Note- if we had the ability to reach 85... we'd just say "Shut up and Take My Money" for the level 85 ship.

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    Should guild level reflects/rewards activity ? I think yes.
    I am against removing decay, but for more fair system.

    Ohh and there was nothing wrong with the old account based system, think about it, twice or more, read Vanshilar's posts. You play less, you get less, can't get simpler than that.

    Are there really people complaining about decay at lvl 50 ? Now come on ...

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