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Thread: Stop kiting

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    Community Member Izuma41's Avatar
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    Question Stop kiting

    So I was playing on my arcane archer who's especially built to kite which I think most archers are built to do, and the tank (the person who is suppose to maintain agro) gets upset that I'm kiting. My question is why should I stop kiting if you don't have control over agro? There is a skill called intimidation which draws agro towards you, why not invest in it?
    The tanking ability of a ranger isn't on par with barbarians and fighters I believe.

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    Community Member ZeebaNeighba's Avatar
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    It's a good idea to give the tank a few seconds hitting alone to really make sure he has aggro those first few seconds. Anyone can do enough damage to take the aggro off the tank with some lucky crits or slaying arrows, so you need to give the tank some time to do a little damage as a safeguard if someone does get lucky that way. Generally, you'll want to give a few more seconds before you open manyshot since the burst damage there can take the aggro off the tank.

    But if you've done all that and you still get aggro...then you shield block until the tank can get aggro, because not doing damage for a few seconds is still more total DPS than not allowing any of the melees to hit the boss in most raid groups. And shield blocking, with evasion to avoid spell damage, you should have decent enough defenses to hold out until the tank gets aggro again.

    Some groups will just make a decently defensive melee with some hate gear lying around tank, who may or may not have actually invested in intimidate, because waiting for a dedicated tank build to join a group can take a while. So not every group has someone who can instantly take aggro off you. In addition, I'm pretty sure intimidate has a certain range, it won't work if you've already kited the boss to the other end of the map.

    If you're fighting a crowd of trash, feel free to kite a few of them because the melees still have other enemies to hit.

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    Hatchery Hero BOgre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Izuma41 View Post
    So I was playing on my arcane archer who's especially built to kite which I think most archers are built to do, and the tank (the person who is suppose to maintain agro) gets upset that I'm kiting. My question is why should I stop kiting if you don't have control over agro? There is a skill called intimidation which draws agro towards you, why not invest in it?
    The tanking ability of a ranger isn't on par with barbarians and fighters I believe.
    There's a time to kite and a time to stop. You say "Get Intim", the obvious rebuttal is "Get Diplo".

    Trash thru AoE's? Kite, of course.

    11 other people trying to target a preferably stationary Boss? Don't kite, of course.

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    Community Member Lonnbeimnech's Avatar
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    3 problems with intim

    1. it has a 15 second cooldown, so if you fail or miss, thats a long time to be running after a mob, tanks usually dont run that fast either so they arent going to catch up.

    2. it doesnt have a very large aoe, so again if the mob is running away from you, there is a good change you'll miss.

    3. it doesnt auto pull agro, it just bumps up your hate, so if you havent hit the mob yet and someone is manyshotting the mob, you will lose agro quickly



    Now with that said, if you are talking about trash, there shouldnt be any tanking, and the tank should just find another mob to kill. unless its one of those many quests where the door wont open until all the mobs are dead and someone is kiting them around doing 20 damage every 2 seconds with their bow while everyone else tries to catch up.

    one problem with range in this game. The main advantage is that you can hit mobs from far away, the problem is then that they will run past the rest of the party to attack you... In a group there are 5 ways around this annoying situation.

    1. target enemy casters and rangers, they dont kite
    2. wait until the melee enguage the enemy and establish agro, I dont like this one because they will usually be dead before you get to do anything
    3. put the bow away and just melee
    4. kill the enemy, this one is hard for an under geared ranger when manyshot is on cooldown.
    5. solo the quest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech View Post
    3 problems with intim

    1. it has a 15 second cooldown, so if you fail or miss, thats a long time to be running after a mob, tanks usually dont run that fast either so they arent going to catch up.

    2. it doesnt have a very large aoe, so again if the mob is running away from you, there is a good change you'll miss.

    3. it doesnt auto pull agro, it just bumps up your hate, so if you havent hit the mob yet and someone is manyshotting the mob, you will lose agro quickly



    Now with that said, if you are talking about trash, there shouldnt be any tanking, and the tank should just find another mob to kill. unless its one of those many quests where the door wont open until all the mobs are dead and someone is kiting them around doing 20 damage every 2 seconds with their bow while everyone else tries to catch up.

    one problem with range in this game. The main advantage is that you can hit mobs from far away, the problem is then that they will run past the rest of the party to attack you... In a group there are 5 ways around this annoying situation.

    1. target enemy casters and rangers, they dont kite
    2. wait until the melee enguage the enemy and establish agro, I dont like this one because they will usually be dead before you get to do anything
    3. put the bow away and just melee
    4. kill the enemy, this one is hard for an under geared ranger when manyshot is on cooldown.
    5. solo the quest
    You forgot a rather obvious Number 6 and the way I play my Archer (When I play DDO which isn't very often these days).

    6. Attack when the mobs come into range and while keeping as many of them in IPS as you can, move towards the largest concentration of Melee Party Members. When the mobs start getting close to you make sure that at this point you are now stood right beside the Melee of the Party. Now stop moving. You should only need to be stood there for a few seconds before the Melee establish agro and you now have all the time in the world to pick your target and IPS the bunch again.

    If the Melee can't take agro from you while you're stood there next to them, then the problem lies with the Melee, not the Archer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel_666 View Post
    You forgot a rather obvious Number 6 and the way I play my Archer (When I play DDO which isn't very often these days).
    ~
    If the Melee can't take agro from you while you're stood there next to them, then the problem lies with the Melee, not the Archer.
    You pull this **** in raid/quest, you will die. Unless you are designated kiter. Start jumping and running like a chicken on fleshy sorc or wannabe squishy ranger with more melees in group ? You better hjeal yerself. Continue and you will get dispelled, greased, sleetstormed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veles View Post
    You pull this **** in raid/quest, you will die. Unless you are designated kiter. Start jumping and running like a chicken on fleshy sorc or wannabe squishy ranger with more melees in group ? You better hjeal yerself. Continue and you will get dispelled, greased, sleetstormed.
    Interesting. Was this in response to my post which you quoted, or the OP?

    I ask because in my post I specifically stated that I don't kite.

    *Edit* And my response was based under the premise of non-Epic Elite content because that makes up more than 99% of all content in the game, whereas Epic Elite probably comes to less than 1%.

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    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    There is a skill called intimidation which draws agro towards you, why not invest in it?
    The tanking ability of a ranger isn't on par with barbarians and fighters I believe.
    And why don't you have diplo?

    Generally speaking if you kite something away you are now responsible for killing it. They should have let you run around and die if needed.

    Unless of course this was a raid and you were kiting something you shouldn't have, in which case you should just move on to another game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    And why don't you have diplo?

    Generally speaking if you kite something away you are now responsible for killing it. They should have let you run around and die if needed.

    Unless of course this was a raid and you were kiting something you shouldn't have, in which case you should just move on to another game.
    Honestly, at this point in the game, any melee should realize they're allowed in group out of pity and not necessity. People that play sub-optimal toons should be thankful that there's people that understand their situation and allow them in groups. To then get uppity because the party doesn't switch to sub-optimal tactics to make them feel useful is just rude.

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    Community Member Tocawe's Avatar
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    Default Let the kiters have fun :)

    I mostly agree with the OP, except for those obvious exceptions like bosses.

    If a player aggro mob(s) and kites them away from the party, I'll assume that he can either handle it, or will bring the mobs back to the party. If not, he'll (hopefully) learn to. You'll never see me chasing after mobs chasing kiters.

    If a kiter want to play with a few mobs on his own, I'll let him. Some players might kill them as fast or faster than any melee, while others might use a minute or more per mob. As long as they don't hinder the rest of the party I really don't mind either way.

    Oh, and if I'm on a ranged character, go for those enemies ahead of us, and stop chasing the ones i'm having full control on. They're probably dead before you get to them anyway.

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    Ranged characters can do a ton of damage quickly, especially when running manyshot/10k stars. Toss in the fact that initial agro is a large component in DDO's agro and you can't expect people to pull mobs off of you. You agro it and it's your responsibility to deal with it. That means building a ranged toon that can deal with the agro and tank the mob for the group, only hitting things the group isn't fighting/isn't going to fight/you can kill yourself, or else assuring that you don't pull agro while shooting the mobs. And please...never kite a boss (unless it's a planned kiting by the group). It takes a really good player with a really good internet connection to hit a boss getting kited and no matter how much damage you do it's trumped by the fact that the melees will all be struggling to hit.
    Tajawuka 9 monk/8 ranger/3 arti AA (3 ranger/monk/fighter pl's) - Toolbots working on Morninglord Cleric life #2 (3 wizard/sorc/druid pl) - Evisra 28 rogue

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    Community Member Izuma41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOgre View Post
    There's a time to kite and a time to stop. You say "Get Intim", the obvious rebuttal is "Get Diplo".

    Trash thru AoE's? Kite, of course.

    11 other people trying to target a preferably stationary Boss? Don't kite, of course.
    Well personally I use Bow of Sinew for it's steath strike, as well as half elven dip/bluff which reduces threat before each engage, so if I manage to pull agro off the tank is it REALLY my fault after taking precautions? They may not be full but at least they're some.

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    The Hatchery BruceTheHoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalont View Post
    Honestly, at this point in the game, any melee should realize they're allowed in group out of pity and not necessity. People that play sub-optimal toons should be thankful that there's people that understand their situation and allow them in groups. To then get uppity because the party doesn't switch to sub-optimal tactics to make them feel useful is just rude.
    So edgy!

    Optimal tactics depends on the party. If a party is mostly melee, then the optimal tactics to kill something is almost never to kite it.

    Please, think about what you're saying before saying it and try again.

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    Community Member Izuma41's Avatar
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    I'm not asking to be edgy or anything of that nature, I'm just partially confused as to why most melee characters who have the ability to tank and deal damage get upset when others kite. I was under the assumption that a tank's initial role was to control most agro of a mob and let characters that can handle themselves do so. It's not hard to take down one or two trash units that target you while kiting if you're staying within the group. And I suppose that's what I'm really talking about getting yelled at about kiting while you're still in the group.

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    The Hatchery BruceTheHoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Izuma41 View Post
    I'm not asking to be edgy or anything of that nature,
    My reply was to the modern philosopher I've quoted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Izuma41 View Post
    I'm not asking to be edgy or anything of that nature, I'm just partially confused as to why most melee characters who have the ability to tank and deal damage get upset when others kite. I was under the assumption that a tank's initial role was to control most agro of a mob and let characters that can handle themselves do so. It's not hard to take down one or two trash units that target you while kiting if you're staying within the group. And I suppose that's what I'm really talking about getting yelled at about kiting while you're still in the group.
    As others already wrote it, use diplomacy, it's that simple.

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    Community Member Izuma41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yalinaa View Post
    As others already wrote it, use diplomacy, it's that simple.
    I get what you're saying but at the same time I have to sacrifice my skill points to compensate their build? What makes theirs so much more special than mine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Izuma41 View Post
    I get what you're saying but at the same time I have to sacrifice my skill points to compensate their build? What makes theirs so much more special than mine?
    For the exact same reason you think they should spend skill points on intimidate.

    If they can't keep agro they need to work on it. If you can't avoid taking agro you need to work on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceTheHoon View Post
    So edgy!

    Optimal tactics depends on the party. If a party is mostly melee, then the optimal tactics to kill something is almost never to kite it.

    Please, think about what you're saying before saying it and try again.
    It isn't edgy, it's the truth. In EE, good players build good groups, and these groups do not contain melee. Every other difficulty is too easy for tactics to matter. If you're taking the first five in EE, and they are mostly melee, then change your tactics and kite less. But why do that, when you can simply fill from channel or guild and have an optimal group and a much smoother run?

  20. #20
    The Hatchery Enoach's Avatar
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    First there is nothing wrong with kiting if it is the strategy of the party.

    Second there is are two right ways and many wrong ways to kiting when in a Party

    Right Ways:
    1. Kiting Mob(s) not engaged by party members to reduce incoming damage. Usually used to keep a bunch of Trash busy while the party works on a specific target such as a Quest Objective, or works on a single mob at a time. This generally has the kiter coming by the group so that they can pick one off the chain - usually with a hit, trip or stun as intimidate would grab the whole train. This method is usually employed by groups that need the reduced incoming damage that kiting provides.

    2. Kiting a hindrance to quest completion. Sometimes there are just things in the way, such as Monastery of the Scorpion where the objective is not to kill but to keep them away from the person completing the quest. Sometimes it is needed to handle a particularly hard to Melee mob such as one of the optional objectives in Blown to Bits.


    First lets understand a few things.

    1. Not every fighter is going to have intimidate - many have few skill points to spend per level themselves
    2. If you don't want agro then it is up to you, not your other party members to find a way to reduce that agro. Sometimes that means waiting a few seconds before you engage and sometimes that means investing in Diplomacy - Which gear will give you big bang for the buck.
    3. Good Melee will not chase down kited mobs, it is a waste of energy
    4. A good kiter either kills what they are kiting or chains them to the group so that they can be picked off - IE running right though the "Tank"

    When playing with an actual "Tank" build you will find it much harder to "take" agro and at that point you can let loose.

    A thought to leave you with - Will a mob die faster with 6 people hitting it or just one person?

    --------------------------------------------------------
    Now kiting solo is a whole other game - here your objective is to not get hit, while your applying all the pain. But this style does not translate well with group mechanics.

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