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  1. #1
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    Default Two Weapon Fighting - Twin Bastard Swords?

    Is there any significant drawback to using twin bastard swords if your a two weapon fighter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canukian View Post
    Is there any significant drawback to using twin bastard swords if your a two weapon fighter?
    You dont get glancing blows like you do if you one-hand it, thats the only thing. And, really, if you're spending a feat on an exotic proficiency, it might as well be Khopesh, since 1d8/x3 is better than 1d10/x2.

    The glancing blows are really the only reason to take Bastards over Khopesh, unless you happen to already have some very good BS and you cant get any comparably good Khopeshes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    You dont get glancing blows like you do if you one-hand it, thats the only thing. And, really, if you're spending a feat on an exotic proficiency, it might as well be Khopesh, since 1d8/x3 is better than 1d10/x2.

    The glancing blows are really the only reason to take Bastards over Khopesh, unless you happen to already have some very good BS and you cant get any comparably good Khopeshes...
    Yup, what you said.

    Though there are some really sexy BS's in the game now.

    But not enough, IMHO, to use a feat on the proficiency.

    Not yet anyway.

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    Community Member thegreatneil's Avatar
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    Default drawback

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    Community Member lamborgini's Avatar
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    They need make some sort of drastic change to BS's, like if wielded one handed w/o shield should grant it a X3 crit mod or a +1W increase. All other uses should remain the same, but to add to it's ability to be really called the hand and a half sword. Just some thought!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lamborgini View Post
    They need make some sort of drastic change to BS's, like if wielded one handed w/o shield should grant it a X3 crit mod or a +1W increase. All other uses should remain the same, but to add to it's ability to be really called the hand and a half sword. Just some thought!!!
    Well to be fair, they dont want to make khopeshes and d.axes completely obsolete, either. BS with +1[W] or 19-20/x3 AND glancing blows would make it the clear best-choice, enough that even dwarves would spend the feat on the prof rather than use D.axes. And it would be better single target damage than khops, meaning for 1HF, its no longer a tossup between pure single target (khop) or some aoe (BS).

    Obviously, there's always going to be a mathematical best weapon choice. The way to get around that is to make tweak certain weapons in favor of certain classes or races, so at least the "min-max choice" isnt always the same. D.axes are good for dwarves, because they get it free. BSs will be promoted a lot as the melee arti weapon when the EP hits (its already supported on their class-feat list). So BS are better suited for artis and anyone that takes the THF line for better glancing damage, without making khops obsolete for every class.

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    argh! i really wish i could edit posts!

    GTHF adds 37.5% (0.75 GB rate * 0.50 GB damage) to the base damage of your BS when you're standing still, which is more than the difference with Khopesh, and also adds 6.75% to your proc-based damage (0.75 GB rate * 0.09 proc rate). Actually slightly more than 37.5%, since AFAIK PA bonuses add in on top of the GB base damage.

    So BS is already the better choice (all things otherwise being equal) if you have the THF line, the AoE effect is just lagniappe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    Well to be fair, they dont want to make khopeshes and d.axes completely obsolete, either. BS with +1[W] or 19-20/x3 AND glancing blows would make it the clear best-choice, enough that even dwarves would spend the feat on the prof rather than use D.axes. And it would be better single target damage than khops, meaning for 1HF, its no longer a tossup between pure single target (khop) or some aoe (BS).

    Obviously, there's always going to be a mathematical best weapon choice. The way to get around that is to make tweak certain weapons in favor of certain classes or races, so at least the "min-max choice" isnt always the same. D.axes are good for dwarves, because they get it free. BSs will be promoted a lot as the melee arti weapon when the EP hits (its already supported on their class-feat list). So BS are better suited for artis and anyone that takes the THF line for better glancing damage, without making khops obsolete for every class.
    Khopeshes OUGHT to be obsolete!!! There's a reason they were abandoned in the real world over three thousand years ago! We should have falcatas instead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by droid327 View Post
    argh! i really wish i could edit posts!

    GTHF adds 37.5% (0.75 GB rate * 0.50 GB damage) to the base damage of your BS when you're standing still, which is more than the difference with Khopesh, and also adds 6.75% to your proc-based damage (0.75 GB rate * 0.09 proc rate). Actually slightly more than 37.5%, since AFAIK PA bonuses add in on top of the GB base damage.

    So BS is already the better choice (all things otherwise being equal) if you have the THF line, the AoE effect is just lagniappe.
    You only get glances blows when wielding a single bastard sword (either with a shield, rune arm, or nothing in your off hand). As such, when TWFing a khophesh is superior - all other things being equal. But yes, for sword and board type setups, a bastard sword wins.

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    Community Member Blue100000005's Avatar
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    I have a bastard sword 2wf as my main. Level 25. I went out and found the best swords i could, put a lot of time into it.

    That said, the character is still not that powerful. A 2wf can not keep pace with a 2hf unfortunately. Another stupid deviation from PnP. It is nice to have, looks good with two swords going at once, but ultimately unable to really do much damage.

    And to the people who will inevitably say "you gimped, you cant build it, blah blah" I only focused on 2WF feats to power it. It is just a DDO raped build that in nonviable for devastation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltarrin View Post
    Khopeshes OUGHT to be obsolete!!! There's a reason they were abandoned in the real world over three thousand years ago! We should have falcatas instead!
    Thats not entirely fair....khopeshes are a bronze age design, falcatas are iron age, so there's a difference in the metal, not just the weapon design. Plus, khopeshes were designed to hook and de-shield an opponent, but that became tactically obsolete as mounted units became more prevalent, and as armies became more organized, with tactical formations where you were fighting a line of infantry rather than just one-on-one melee.

    But in the DDO world, where its still largely single hand-to-hand combat (and you definitely never see a phalanx of kobolds), and where everything is steel (or magical materials), the khopesh would still be a useful weapon. Granted, if it was realistic, it would have some innate Sunder-like effect on-hit, representing the khopesh's design to penetrate defenses, rather than just a big crit profile

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    Community Member Nightmanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canukian View Post
    Is there any significant drawback to using twin bastard swords if your a two weapon fighter?
    I'd bet you right now that a Human rogue dual wielding Nightmares, both upgraded to even just tier 1 for the set bonus would be a force to be reckoned with. Nightmare is definitely the sword you want though if you want bastard swords, but realistically the difference between Khopesh, Dwarven Waraxes, Rapiers, Scimitars, etc etc is minimal. Yes people will tell you that THF is going to do more damage, but that's only because we have mostly mass mob encounters instead of single target destruction, which favours twf greatly.

    Yes Khopesh is going to do more dps for random gen weapons, but it's not like many other weapons are really that noticeably far behind.

    Seriously though, pure str human rogue dual wielding Nightmares (especially fully upgraded) will do so much dps Shade and Rogann would run home crying.

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    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canukian View Post
    Is there any significant drawback to using twin bastard swords if your a two weapon fighter?
    Over the years I have run Human, Pure class Tempest dual wielding basties.
    And have much success and lot's of fun. They can hold their own, and if done right, can be very powerful.

    Unlike other weapons, you HAVE to make the build tailored to using them. That's why most people don't use them.

    Going human, and using the free feat at creation solves the "uses a feat" issue.
    However; you need to take all of the oversize weapon feats, Improved crit-slashing, and be committed to at the very least Tempest 2 or Kensai 2.

    The long standing argument kopesh vs basties doesn't hold much merit n one big sense, kopesh will give you a better crit multiplier, but doesn't have the damage output basties do.

    The character needs to have maxed out strength, and at least a 14 dex at creation. Then use items and tomes to get over 17.
    Strength is the key to maximizing damage when going basties. And for a 28 pt build, it is tough to get tempests perfectly balanced. Kensai is easier, but they don't have the self heal and spell abilities rangers do. (Trade off.)

    Kensai is easier for newer players, because of the extra feats as you level. That being said, Tempest, once accustomed to, is a better choice. imo. Starting a ranger with 18 str and bow strength being auto-granted, gives you the firepower needed when going ranged.
    Stats should look like this; 18/14/16/8/10/8 for a 28 pt build.

    As for the actual weapons, the named basties are really nice now with augments. And you should seek out as many of those as you can.
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Named_weapons_by_type

    Character alignment plays into some of the named, so read about them and make a decision based on this (kind of)

    So to answer your question, YES.But you have to be committed to the build.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post
    The long standing argument kopesh vs basties doesn't hold much merit n one big sense, kopesh will give you a better crit multiplier, but doesn't have the damage output basties do.
    You are gaining 0-2 damage, or 0-4 at epic. And loosing a potential of around 100 damage on crits, very dependent on your build. Dual wielding Bastard Swords is not comparable to a real weapon like Khopeshes or Scimitars in the slightest bit. You can build your character however you want.... but some choices are just all around bad. Such as dual wielding Bastard Swords.

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    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForumAccess View Post
    You are gaining 0-2 damage, or 0-4 at epic. And loosing a potential of around 100 damage on crits, very dependent on your build. Dual wielding Bastard Swords is not comparable to a real weapon like Khopeshes or Scimitars in the slightest bit. You can build your character however you want.... but some choices are just all around bad. Such as dual wielding Bastard Swords.
    ok, and for the 5 years Ive run toons like this, you were where?
    Sure other stuff can be better, that's the nature of the game.
    The OP asked, I answered. Your response (as normal) is borderline argumentative.
    Once again, a nay sayer is trolling.
    Come to my server, any lvl, any quest, and see these builds in action. The forums don't prove anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    "I like pie. Pie is delicious." "You know, cake is better", and a sudden nerf gun war breaks out because Pie is supreme. Then someone says, "What about dinner?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post
    ok, and for the 5 years Ive run toons like this, you were where?
    Sure other stuff can be better, that's the nature of the game.
    The OP asked, I answered. Your response (as normal) is borderline argumentative.
    Once again, a nay sayer is trolling.
    Come to my server, any lvl, any quest, and see these builds in action. The forums don't prove anything.
    I'm sorry, but he made a valid point, saying that you gain 0-2 base damage for an extra crit modifier... That's not trolling.

    Then went ahead and said that you can build and play however you like... That's definately not trolling.

    People who do not agree with you aren't by default trolls.

    As for the OP: Scimitars do not require a feat and give you a better crit profile, so does khopesh.
    Feel free to build a bastard sword twf'ing char, but keep in mind that with a +5 weapon and a 30 strength you've traded a feat for 0.54 damage/hit over a scimitar (not accounting for burst weapon enchants, wich favors scimitars as well)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post
    ok, and for the 5 years Ive run toons like this, you were where?
    Sure other stuff can be better, that's the nature of the game.
    The OP asked, I answered. Your response (as normal) is borderline argumentative.
    Once again, a nay sayer is trolling.
    Come to my server, any lvl, any quest, and see these builds in action. The forums don't prove anything.
    Bastard Swords are, and always have been, inferior to khopeshes, at least as long as I've been playing. I've seen plenty of evidence from your builds putting out less damage than my own that utilize khopeshes. Doesn't mean bastard sword builds are useless, but going bastard sword is a flavor choice, due to it being a less effective option for a TWF (for reference, very few people go longswords, and longswords are the same as bastard swords except for a very slightly lower base damage, but the free feat can add more damage than that...scimitars and rapiers are well ahead).

    The one exception currently is that weapons of obscenity are rather hard to get, so Nightmares are currently the best trash weapons (you could, however, do better with scimitars of obscenity).

    To the OP, there are currently rapiers in the end-game that are better than khopeshes as well (18-20/x3 crit). Furthermore, there's no telling what weapon will really be on top soon, as there's an expansion coming very soon.
    Last edited by WruntJunior; 05-29-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I've seen plenty of evidence from your builds putting out less damage than my own that utilize khopeshes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    "I like pie. Pie is delicious." "You know, cake is better", and a sudden nerf gun war breaks out because Pie is supreme. Then someone says, "What about dinner?"

  19. #19
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    I have a TWF BS build. Had him for about 5 years. He is level 13. That demonstrates how much I have enjoyed him...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post
    Kensai is easier for newer players, because of the extra feats as you level. That being said, Tempest, once accustomed to, is a better choice. imo. Starting a ranger with 18 str and bow strength being auto-granted, gives you the firepower needed when going ranged.
    Stats should look like this; 18/14/16/8/10/8 for a 28 pt build.
    Why so much dex for a tempest build? IMO one of the reasons to go ranger tempest over kensai is to get the TWF feats without needing to hit the dex minimums. If you can stomach the heroic levels without a prestige I'd go with a base 10 dex and add the dodge/mobility/spring attack feats at 12/15/18, if going pure, after a +3 tome kicks in at 11 to give the needed dex for dodge. Especially with a 28 point build (which would be 18/10/16/8/8/8, your example is a 34 point build as far as I can tell).

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