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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I only pay $8 a month for VIP ($99 a year)...

    500 TPs is worth about $3.50, so I'm only paying $4.50 a MONTH for everything else... That's super-cheap for what you get (good list up above).
    although rarely do I feel your point of view worth even commenting on it seeming so far to the left of my own I have to say this is simple sound logic in the way you view it. Just as for some like myself when the shift to the hybrid model began saw it as a way to drop a large chunk out the gate to buy access to all the old content I enjoyed others saw the advantage in buying a years sub at a time for optimal TP return.

    The only real lack of value for a vip comes with those who resub each month, the short game viewed players. Just as paying for TP in smaller chunks equals less optimal gain so to should those who sub the least at a time.

    If anything VIP needs new sub categories to reward people like the above who keep thier faith and sub for the year at a time, while giving virtually nothing except the TP and content access for the least amount of subbing.

    Perhaps that is the best way to resolve the current issue, maybe if turbine rewards year at a time subbers with content like the expansions while forcing the monthly subbers to pay for it would be a compromise more in each category could tolerate.

  2. #62
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehediah View Post
    We long loyal VIP's are getting ripped again. Originally when FTP came, we were told that we'd continue to get new stuff free when it came out (new classes, new races, new content, etc.).

    Yet again, that promise has been broken and we are forced to shell out a ton of money for what we are supposedly already paying for. Really, what's the point of VIP? One is far better off paying for these new packs then being VIP. At least this pack doesn't come with tons of stuff that we already get (like the last pack which was an even GREATER rip off than this one for VIPs).

    I might be buying the new pack - but, I sure ain't happy about it. Each day I get more and more annoyed with Turbine. Keep it up and it won't be long before you lose yet another long loyal customer.
    Its common practice in MMOs to purchase expansions even with a monthly sub.
    Last edited by Tanngiostr; 07-12-2013 at 08:49 PM.

  3. #63
    Community Member ushram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanngiostr View Post
    Its common practice in MMOs to purchase expansions even with a monthly sub.
    Yes, it is but when this game initially launched and we shelled out 50$ for the game on top of the 15 a month sub, it was advertised as having free adventure packs for everyone.(everyone was VIP in those days) It was advertised as never going to have paid expansions. Could probably find some old advertisement or post if I felt like digging through google. Just saying.
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  4. #64
    Community Member Yehediah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ushram View Post
    Yes, it is but when this game initially launched and we shelled out 50$ for the game on top of the 15 a month sub, it was advertised as having free adventure packs for everyone.(everyone was VIP in those days) It was advertised as never going to have paid expansions. Could probably find some old advertisement or post if I felt like digging through google. Just saying.
    Right! And also, when it did go freeplay, we were promised that we'd get all this stuff for "free" (as in no added cost to our subscription)!

    Personally, I would be fine if we long time VIP's weren't constantly treated like the proverbial red-headed step-child. For instance, give us perks in the expansion as compensation.

    Likewise, updates massively break old builds without consideration - at least this time we are supposed to get LR's (with level changes). But, from what I hear there's plenty else that breaks old builds. Many of us have early VIP's have 10+ characters we play - never any consideration for us - new stuff seems to gear for the new person starting fresh OR for someone who uses 1 characterand keeps TR'ing that character.
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  5. #65
    Community Member vampiregoat69's Avatar
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    wait VIP get 10% XP bonus? I have been both premium and vip and did not even notice since it is a grind either way. Yeah vip is outdated and has not stayed up with the times think they need to tweak it a little and bring it up to date.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehediah View Post
    Let me put it another way.

    I'm a hair's breath from cancelling VIP and paying for all the stuff and saving tons of money.

    If Turbine wants to keep VIP'ers - then they need to make VIP a better bargain. Cause, frankly, it ain't. It'd cost a bunch at first to get everything the VIP gets - but, as soon as it's all bought, you are saving tons of money. Which translates to Turbine losing money overall.

    So, to re-iterate, if Turbine wants regular money from VIP'ers, then they need to give them a better value for it...
    Seriously, they upgrade vips and you whiners are still whining about stupid things. I'll say it again like I said it for MotU.... EXPANSIONS IN ALMOST ANY GAME I HAVE PLAYED HAVE BEEN PAID EXPANSIONS, regardless of who you are (in f2p or p2p games). Look at WoW, They pay a mandatory fee (or game card) and pay for expansions.... so get over it.

    You still get all non-expansion content for free, so really dishing out 40+ bucks for an expansion isn't that bad (unless you want the extra fluff)

    Not a turbine fanboi, but the industry has literally been doing paid expansions for well over 15+ years.... and it's worse/better now with DLC....


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  7. #67
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    Seriously, they upgrade vips and you whiners are still whining about stupid things. I'll say it again like I said it for MotU.... EXPANSIONS IN ALMOST ANY GAME I HAVE PLAYED HAVE BEEN PAID EXPANSIONS, regardless of who you are (in f2p or p2p games). Look at WoW, They pay a mandatory fee (or game card) and pay for expansions.... so get over it.
    What part of "they said 'all content' and then changed their mind," didn't you quite get? They sold VIP access with providing access to all content - not some, but ALL - for months and months on end, and then arbitrarily redefined what "content" actually was. Kinda like what the meaning of what "is" is.

    It isn't an upgrade if they give you something while taking away something else. That's either called a "compromise" or a "bait-and-switch."

    All you've done is expressed what an easy mark you are for the rest of the world to see...

  8. #68
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    VIP is still a good deal for me. I received free content from updates and a new 10% VIP xp bonus.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabaon View Post
    Seriously, they upgrade vips and you whiners are still whining about stupid things. I'll say it again like I said it for MotU.... EXPANSIONS IN ALMOST ANY GAME I HAVE PLAYED HAVE BEEN PAID EXPANSIONS, regardless of who you are (in f2p or p2p games). Look at WoW, They pay a mandatory fee (or game card) and pay for expansions.... so get over it.

    You still get all non-expansion content for free, so really dishing out 40+ bucks for an expansion isn't that bad (unless you want the extra fluff)

    Not a turbine fanboi, but the industry has literally been doing paid expansions for well over 15+ years.... and it's worse/better now with DLC....
    I would agree with you if the "Expansions" were truly Expansions.
    In any other game I played buying an expansion was like buying a new game, lots of content and it took on a life of its own with development and growth.
    A pack is a releases a limited set of quests/Raids pretty much a dead end until additional packs are added.
    A patch or update is a rework of system mechanics that dont work the way the game developers like.

    MOTU had the potential to be an expansion with 12 quests, a bunch of challenges and a raid and some other goodies...
    but we are missing the continuing life of its own with upgrades and additional releases of quests..
    I dont see any MOTU ongoing development..


    The latest so called "expansion", 6 quests, no raid.
    A level 28 release and we still are waiting for the incomplete system rework of the Enhancement pass that hasnt made it out of Alpha stage.
    a rework of the XP system that doesnt make sense and is still in the development stage
    Iconic heroes that dont work properly - a work in progress
    Epic TR process that make no sense - still in development
    retoractive rework of loot levels with the removal of racial requirements.
    and of course.. more Cosmetic pets

    The way I see it we are paying for a rework of the current and future system mechanic not a so called "expansion"


    Stormreach growth is non-existant (not including Epic GH ( that pack that was finished and ready to go years ago as some of us got to see in a oops..Lammania release) and this was dusted off tweaked for loot and repackaged as new).

    Stormreach has effectively stalled for regular players, and those that didnt buy the expansion are dead ended as there is no indications of any ongoing content development in Stormreach.

    Stormreach is the core system and should be continued to be developed regardless of the expansions, seems to me they have a limited pool of development resources and have pulled all of them off ongoing regular development and put them all into expansion work.
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  10. #70
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    What part of "they said 'all content' and then changed their mind," didn't you quite get? They sold VIP access with providing access to all content - not some, but ALL - for months and months on end, and then arbitrarily redefined what "content" actually was. Kinda like what the meaning of what "is" is.

    It isn't an upgrade if they give you something while taking away something else. That's either called a "compromise" or a "bait-and-switch."

    All you've done is expressed what an easy mark you are for the rest of the world to see...
    Yep, they did say that.

    How many YEARS ago did they say that?

    How many YEARS ago did they say that before expansions were even talked about at Turbine?

    All you have shown is that you are still living in the past and prefer things to never evolve.



    If you really do not want to pay out an extra $30 for an expansion or two, then don't. It's your choice. And it is your choice to get left behind. Since it reads like this is your first MMO, this is how they work - you pay extra for expansions. Either get used to it now or go back to your Playstation/XBox pre DLC.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  11. #71

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    If you do not find the value in being a VIP Subscriber... then dont subscribe.

    Its not hard. you can play this game as a non-subscriber very easily.

    If the VIP's are suckers..... what does that make people who think its dumb, but still subscribe anyway?


    this is a very mature game at this point... Clinging to vague "promises" you think you remember seeing 7 or 8 years ago is odd.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnA3C9Af_oc

    as for this next expansion.. I dont see the value. I havent bought it yet. I expect to see a significant sale shortly after release. I will buy it then. Maybe.
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  12. #72
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Yep, they did say that.

    How many YEARS ago did they say that?

    How many YEARS ago did they say that before expansions were even talked about at Turbine?

    All you have shown is that you are still living in the past and prefer things to never evolve.
    So we're using the word "evolve" to describe altering the agreement by simply altering one word in order to charge people for something they were told they would get free when they subbed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    If you really do not want to pay out an extra $30 for an expansion or two, then don't. It's your choice. And it is your choice to get left behind. Since it reads like this is your first MMO, this is how they work - you pay extra for expansions. Either get used to it now or go back to your Playstation/XBox pre DLC.
    Or go to one of the myriad other MMOs where all content is free. You call it "living in the past" - but the more modern monetization of MMOs - the F2P model - doesnt charge people for content. The only ones that do are those that started in the monthly sub era and are still trying to hold onto past ways of generating income while at the same time borrowing ideas from the f2p model.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  13. #73
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    If you do not find the value in being a VIP Subscriber... then dont subscribe.

    Its not hard. you can play this game as a non-subscriber very easily.

    If the VIP's are suckers..... what does that make people who think its dumb, but still subscribe anyway?


    this is a very mature game at this point... Clinging to vague "promises" you think you remember seeing 7 or 8 years ago is odd.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnA3C9Af_oc

    as for this next expansion.. I dont see the value. I havent bought it yet. I expect to see a significant sale shortly after release. I will buy it then. Maybe.
    Thats part of the issue right there. Its like people are willing to give them a pass due to exhibiting the same behavior for LONGER periods of time. The mentality now is that its the players fault simply because we shouldnt expect any promises to be adhered to.

    As for "vague "promises" you think you remember seeing 7 or 8 years ago" - try "the literal wording of the agreement 14 months ago." They changed the wording from ALL content to MOST content, just before the last expansion, and it wasnt until players were calling this out that they did so.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yehediah View Post
    We long loyal VIP's are getting ripped again. Originally when FTP came, we were told that we'd continue to get new stuff free when it came out (new classes, new races, new content, etc.).

    Yet again, that promise has been broken and we are forced to shell out a ton of money for what we are supposedly already paying for. Really, what's the point of VIP? One is far better off paying for these new packs then being VIP. At least this pack doesn't come with tons of stuff that we already get (like the last pack which was an even GREATER rip off than this one for VIPs).

    I might be buying the new pack - but, I sure ain't happy about it. Each day I get more and more annoyed with Turbine. Keep it up and it won't be long before you lose yet another long loyal customer.
    I find VIP a good deal like some of the other people said Open hard or elite any time you get a lot of races and class 10 charter spaces all packs and 500 ddo points a month!

  15. #75
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Yep, they did say that.

    How many YEARS ago did they say that?
    Great! Someone finally acknowledges that they said VIPs had access to all content – that they proudly said it, and pushed it for the purpose of getting subscribers.

    Now, please show me the expiration date on that agreement…

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    How many YEARS ago did they say that before expansions were even talked about at Turbine?
    I dunno, when I signed up a couple of years ago, I heard nothing about expansions.

    Two years may be a lot in dog years, but last time I checked your average business wasn’t measured in dog years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    All you have shown is that you are still living in the past and prefer things to never evolve.
    Great, so now contractual agreements are allowed to “evolve.”

    I got a great idea: go out, sign a fixed mortgage with a bank that has that same philosophy. When you’re paying double than what you agreed to, because the bank decided that its mortgage division needed to “evolve,” tell me how happy you are that you’re not “living in the past” anymore.

    The whole point of any agreement is that it remains stable over the course of time. Duh.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    If you really do not want to pay out an extra $30 for an expansion or two, then don't. It's your choice. And it is your choice to get left behind. Since it reads like this is your first MMO, this is how they work - you pay extra for expansions. Either get used to it now or go back to your Playstation/XBox pre DLC.
    Yes, this is my first MMO. Unfortunately for you, this is not my first business transaction, or contractual agreement.

    “Everybody else is doing it,” may work on your parents when you’re six, but it doesn’t fly well in business. If Turbine had this same attitude with a major company, and pulled the same ****, their ass would be in court in nearly the blink of an eye.

    (One caveat: it depends on the business. I’ve seen a lot of businesses do some really, really stupid things…)

    At the very least, they’d burn themselves with their customers such that word would get around, and their customer base would dry up like a puddle in Death Valley during a summer time High Noon. You DON’T burn your customers if you want to stay in business for any extended period of time. I’ve seen a lot of companies do it, and I’ve seen a lot of them collapse after pulling this kind of ****.

    Turbine has a built-in advantage: a large chunk of their playerbase is young, kinda dumb (or better to say less experience in worldly matters), and obviously doesn’t mind getting bent over the furniture. Appearntly they are more than willing to be screwed just so long as they are entertained. You’d HAVE to be kinda dumb to sit there and make excuses for someone not to keep their end of a bargain, nevertheless try and justify it as somehow “evolving.”

    The reality is that Turbine didn’t think any of this through when they made DDO, assumed subscriptions would pay all the bills – I don’t know. I really don’t care. All I know is that “all content” is what they advertised, and they went back on their agreement.

    And there is no “MMO standard” of business. The only standard is what makes someone money. And, from what I’ve seen of the MMO business, they tend to not stay in business all that long. You get a few here and there, but for the most part they come and go with a fair amount of rapidity.

    So that tells me the “this is how MMOs are” is a cop-out for the slavish bootlicker crowd (I think they call them fanbois these days).

    Human nature is what it is. You cannot sit there and tell me that there are not a significant number of people in the DDO community who aren’t still stinging (yours truly included) from Turbine’s sudden realization that not all content was content, but some was actually transcendent content, that went beyond the normal understanding of the word “content” and strayed into the surreal realm of “expansion.”

    Most people – including a judge and jury – would call it “content.” Not “evolution.”

    Which is why threads like these don’t seem to die. Because, well, some people are still pretty ****ed. And they have a right to be.

    But you’ve just identified yourself as a mark who can be scammed by some new trend or cunning turn of phrase. Your problem, not mine.

    You are going to have a long, miserable, and impoverished life ahead of you with this kind of mindset.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Now, please show me the expiration date on that agreement…
    Something like

    Changes to Agreement and Game.
    Turbine may update this Agreement at its sole discretion, and you may be asked to review and agree to the revised version of the TOS once it becomes effective. If you do not agree to a revised TOS, you will not be permitted to continue playing the Game. If at any time you are no longer able to comply with the terms of the then-current TOS, you must terminate this Agreement and immediately stop using the Game. Turbine may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Game at any time. Turbine may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Game without notice or liability.
    We've had every argument about this already with the MotU.

    Whether you consider the Shadowfell Conspiracy worthy of being an "expansion" is irrelevant, Turbine do and they set the ground rules. I'm not defending them here as it's pretty clear that upping the level cap to 28 and the new enhancement pass isn't part of an "expansion", you'll get that regardless. It's then down to a personal choice whether you want to purchase access to the new content or not.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You are going to have a long, miserable, and impoverished life ahead of you with this kind of mindset.
    You could argue that someone will have a much more frustrating existence stomping their feet at the beach and demanding the tide doesn't come in. Of course, they're entitled to and it's perfectly within their rights to protest, but the results may not be as effective as they would hope.

  18. #78
    Community Member Kalimah's Avatar
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    Im over the redazz for the whole thing honestly..but even the most stringent fanboi's have to admit this was classic bait and switch.

  19. #79
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadlock View Post
    Something like



    We've had every argument about this already with the MotU.

    Whether you consider the Shadowfell Conspiracy worthy of being an "expansion" is irrelevant, Turbine do and they set the ground rules. I'm not defending them here as it's pretty clear that upping the level cap to 28 and the new enhancement pass isn't part of an "expansion", you'll get that regardless. It's then down to a personal choice whether you want to purchase access to the new content or not.
    Yeah, we know the rules lawyering the letter of their policy gives them the ability to alter the agreement and we should pray they dont alter it any further. Each person who attrites due to this sort of thing makes this situation more and more relevant however. People scramble for alternative methods to lessen the blow, like hoarding points and waiting for a sale on the expansion.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yeah, we know the rules lawyering the letter of their policy gives them the ability to alter the agreement and we should pray they dont alter it any further. Each person who attrites due to this sort of thing makes this situation more and more relevant however. People scramble for alternative methods to lessen the blow, like hoarding points and waiting for a sale on the expansion.
    It's not rules lawyering, it's just standard contract terms that they reserve the right change the agreement as they see fit. And like it or not, we've agreed to it when we log on.

    I've had a subscription since I started playing. We didn't have a f2p release in Europe, so for me signing up for a monthly subscription when we came to the US servers was just the norm, so I've been VIP since they switched the lights off on Keeper and Devourer.

    I'm not staying that I'd be upset if these expansions were free to VIP, but that's on the cards right now.

    I don't think that my monthly subscription or my years of contribution to the DDO coffers gives me any special entitlement to expansions however. I want my VIP subscription to be justified every month when there isn't an expansion to look forward to. As an example, I think I should get 50 Astral Shards along with my 500 TP each month since they're hell bent on making that a new ingame currency. I've no need to spend these on anything right now, but I'll take them anyway. Give me that and whatever else to justify the monthly VIP subscription and you eliminate this whole expansion argument which is just going to come up again with the next expansion same time next year. Your VIP subscription provides you with a bundle of benefits that should justify that cost, and separate to that you can buy expansions or not. Arguing that we should get the expansions for free will get us nowhere.

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