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  1. #1

    Default Owlbear Tested: PRR Bugged

    Short Version: The DR 15/- works, the 200 PRR does not.

    Test:
    I summoned the level 25 owlbear, and went to EE Bargain of Blood. I then had the owlbear aggro the lone kobold at the very begining of the quest, and capture a video using fraps. I determined the damage from each hit by subtracting the owlbear's life post-hit from its pre-hit life. I then repeated this process using the cleric (to keep us from dying during the process) I was playing, after removing his armor, shield, and other defensive gear. So, I had no DR, and no PRR.

    Note - the kobold does not have doublestrike or the like. Every attack animation against the cleric produced just a single damage number. My apologies on the small sample size (only about ~25 hits each), due to limited time. However, the sample is sufficiently strong to conclude that the PRR does not work.

    Against 0 PRR, 0 DR Cleric:
    Avg Damage: 95.5
    Std Dev: 12.6

    Against the 200 PRR, 15 DR Owlbear
    Avg Damage: 73.7
    Std Dev: 14.3

    200 PRR should result in a reduce of 56.29% damage. That alone should have reduced the average damage to 41.74 for the owlbear. Since DR is applied first, we would expect (95.5 - 15) * (1 - .5629) = 35.2 for the average damage. We found that it is actually 73.7, a difference of 38.5, 2.7 standard deviations away. The odds of this occuring by chance are worse than 1 in 81 (assuming a normal distribution). While I'd repeat more for a formal publication, this is still good evidence that the PRR is not 200. Note that the average damage was 7 lower than expected for a 0 PRR. But that is only a half a std dev away, so this is not unexpected.

  2. #2
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Nice job on this, hopefully we can get a dev comment on this tues when they're back in the office.

  3. #3
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Short Version: The DR 15/- works, the 200 PRR does not.
    The damage is consistent with PRR 15 where the expected result is ~73.2.

    Note that DR is advertized as 15. I wonder if the code is taking the same value for both DR and PRR.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    The damage is consistent with PRR 15 where the expected result is ~73.2.

    Note that DR is advertized as 15. I wonder if the code is taking the same value for both DR and PRR.
    Right. I could see that, I could see it being 0, or I could see it being 20 where somebody failed to type the extra 0.

  5. #5
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Right. I could see that, I could see it being 0, or I could see it being 20 where somebody failed to type the extra 0.
    My first thought when I read your results was that the PRR was 20 not 200. At PRR 20 I think the results you got in testing would still be within range.

  6. #6
    The Hatchery Hutoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Short Version: The DR 15/- works, the 200 PRR does not.

    Test:
    I summoned the level 25 owlbear, and went to EE Bargain of Blood. I then had the owlbear aggro the lone kobold at the very begining of the quest, and capture a video using fraps. I determined the damage from each hit by subtracting the owlbear's life post-hit from its pre-hit life. I then repeated this process using the cleric (to keep us from dying during the process) I was playing, after removing his armor, shield, and other defensive gear. So, I had no DR, and no PRR.

    Note - the kobold does not have doublestrike or the like. Every attack animation against the cleric produced just a single damage number. My apologies on the small sample size (only about ~25 hits each), due to limited time. However, the sample is sufficiently strong to conclude that the PRR does not work.

    Against 0 PRR, 0 DR Cleric:
    Avg Damage: 95.5
    Std Dev: 12.6

    Against the 200 PRR, 15 DR Owlbear
    Avg Damage: 73.7
    Std Dev: 14.3

    200 PRR should result in a reduce of 56.29% damage. That alone should have reduced the average damage to 41.74 for the owlbear. Since DR is applied first, we would expect (95.5 - 15) * (1 - .5629) = 35.2 for the average damage. We found that it is actually 73.7, a difference of 38.5, 2.7 standard deviations away. The odds of this occuring by chance are worse than 1 in 81 (assuming a normal distribution). While I'd repeat more for a formal publication, this is still good evidence that the PRR is not 200. Note that the average damage was 7 lower than expected for a 0 PRR. But that is only a half a std dev away, so this is not unexpected.
    Excellent post
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  7. #7
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Excellent post OP,

    this confirms what people are "feeling" ingame.
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  8. #8
    The Hatchery Antiguo's Avatar
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    Good job there, OP.

  9. #9
    Community Member Thame's Avatar
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    Wai

  10. #10
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    Excellent job, OP.

    So let's assume that the PRR number just was a typo and oversight during coding. It -should- be easy enough to put in the correct number and correct the problem, hopefully in the next patch. And I would assume there -will- be a patch sometime soon.

    I expect several people feel like me: I will not pre-order until I know this problem has been settled.

  11. #11
    The Hatchery samthedagger's Avatar
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    Great post OP. Very scientific despite small sample size. I think there is a rapidly growing body of evidence that the 200 PRR reported by Tolero is definitely NOT WAI.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Short Version: The DR 15/- works, the 200 PRR does not.

    Test:
    I summoned the level 25 owlbear, and went to EE Bargain of Blood. I then had the owlbear aggro the lone kobold at the very begining of the quest, and capture a video using fraps. I determined the damage from each hit by subtracting the owlbear's life post-hit from its pre-hit life. I then repeated this process using the cleric (to keep us from dying during the process) I was playing, after removing his armor, shield, and other defensive gear. So, I had no DR, and no PRR.

    Note - the kobold does not have doublestrike or the like. Every attack animation against the cleric produced just a single damage number. My apologies on the small sample size (only about ~25 hits each), due to limited time. However, the sample is sufficiently strong to conclude that the PRR does not work.

    Against 0 PRR, 0 DR Cleric:
    Avg Damage: 95.5
    Std Dev: 12.6

    Against the 200 PRR, 15 DR Owlbear
    Avg Damage: 73.7
    Std Dev: 14.3

    200 PRR should result in a reduce of 56.29% damage. That alone should have reduced the average damage to 41.74 for the owlbear. Since DR is applied first, we would expect (95.5 - 15) * (1 - .5629) = 35.2 for the average damage. We found that it is actually 73.7, a difference of 38.5, 2.7 standard deviations away. The odds of this occuring by chance are worse than 1 in 81 (assuming a normal distribution). While I'd repeat more for a formal publication, this is still good evidence that the PRR is not 200. Note that the average damage was 7 lower than expected for a 0 PRR. But that is only a half a std dev away, so this is not unexpected.
    Thank you and great job on your test!

  13. #13
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Default Needs more than PRR and DR

    It's not just the PRR/AC/DR that needs fixing. The damage output of the eOwlbear doesn't even compare to that of the L21 and L23 hirelings you can purchase in game. Even the panther seems to do more damage and have better survivability than the Owlbear.


    Sadiele (L20 fighter/LD 3 hire) seems to do up to three times as much damage as the eOwlbear.

  14. #14
    Community Member Mindos's Avatar
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    Default But who's typo was it?

    Quote Originally Posted by BansheeGirl View Post
    Excellent job, OP.

    So let's assume that the PRR number just was a typo and oversight during coding. It -should- be easy enough to put in the correct number and correct the problem, hopefully in the next patch. And I would assume there -will- be a patch sometime soon.

    I expect several people feel like me: I will not pre-order until I know this problem has been settled.

    Perhaps it was Tolero who mistyped 200?

  15. #15
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Thanks for providing some solid numbers.

    It's something that we all knew was NOT working as intended. But this gives us some hard data to backup the claim.

    You know you did something right when you even get Therigar agreeing with your results.
    Dorian

  16. #16
    The Hatchery Nibor's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, any issues with crits? The sample size is pretty tiny for finding information on crits.
    Was your Cleric on 100% fort still? Any damage spikes on the Owlbear that indicate a possible crit?

    I'm wondering if just fixing the PRR is enough to make the eOwlbear desirable for more people.

  17. #17
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nibor View Post
    I'm wondering if just fixing the PRR is enough to make the eOwlbear desirable for more people.
    It's not enough... the damage of the Owlbear is pretty pathetic as well. (for a level 25 EPIC hireling)

    The reason to focus on PRR is because the time is running out for getting something changed. Once the pre-order period is over, Turbine has no motivation or reason to change/fix the Owlbear. It won't affect future sales or revenue.

    So we need to list a feature it was supposed to have (200 PRR) and ask for a fix.
    Dorian

  18. #18
    Community Member Mindos's Avatar
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    Default Sorry for necro but...

    This issue apparently still exists almost 2 years later. We are discussing it in this thread:

    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/455179

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