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  1. #41
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I know THIS mmo which is more than seems to be true for you.
    i hope you know what you are speaking lol oh well~~ either way hope turbine make them better. would be such a shame if they are not viable in expansion slayer area.

  2. #42
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    I know you said you were anti-stupidity in the other thread so i'll be short. So am I.
    I don't think you are. If you were you would not make observations that are incorrect. Here is your original post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    100% Flawed

    AC/Avoidance doesn't change the numbers so no problem with PRR. (DR would)

    Monk stuff - Irrelevant

    Jobs... We're are looking at Hireling which all they can do (if non caster) is HIT and take HITs. Nothing else. So what should we compare?

    But seriously the last part is the shiny... Since 2 fighters may not have the same role, then let's compare a Wizard and a Fighter since it is probably more close to reality, right?
    Now, let's talk about the flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    100% Flawed
    Yet you only make a feeble attempt to show one flaw and you are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    AC/Avoidance doesn't change the numbers so no problem with PRR. (DR would)
    Wrong. AC determines the % chance for an attack to register as a hit. Avoidance determines the % chance for that hit to be turned into a miss instead. All misses produce zero damage (or, in some cases, only glancing blow damage). If damage were originally 100 then avoidance makes the damage 0. DR, OTOH, reduces damage so that 20 DR makes 100 drop to 80. There is a large difference between 0 and 80. So, the whole of the AC/avoidance paradigm has to be considered before concluding that too much damage is being taken or that PRR or DR is or isn't working.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Monk stuff - Irrelevant
    Wrong, it serves to illustrate the importance of working with the whole AC/avoidance paradigm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Jobs... We're are looking at Hireling which all they can do (if non caster) is HIT and take HITs. Nothing else. So what should we compare?
    You should compare similar hirelings. But similar does not mean icon or level only. It means roughly analogous stats, gear, feats, AI, etc. We don't know that this is the case with the hires compared thus far.

    On top of that, it means comparing them in realistic environments -- that is, questing as members of a party with each member contributing. Setting them lose on mobs to see how fast they kill or how fast they die doesn't tell much of real value. I know many people think it does, but there are more variables in an actual quest where all members are contributing. The isolated results are not predictive of group performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    But seriously the last part is the shiny... Since 2 fighters may not have the same role, then let's compare a Wizard and a Fighter since it is probably more close to reality, right?
    This is why I don't like stupidity.

    Let's compare two fighters that have the same roles. Or, would that be too hard to comprehend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Have a good day.
    How can I when people insist on posting such ill informed things as you've posted? In fact, I suspect my day will continue to grow worse as people intentionally misread what should be easy to grasp.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    How can I when people insist on posting such ill informed things as you've posted? In fact, I suspect my day will continue to grow worse as people intentionally misread what should be easy to grasp.
    It is not that I misread you at all... it is the fact that you are basing your whole position on a "feeling" that the quest is easier with or without the hireling. You don't even understand yourself that it is flawed and this is where all your debating comes from.

    The player in itself has a whole lot of impact on the contribution that will offer the hireling.

    But it's tough to argue with someone that feels a real difference in difficulty once he pulls out a hireling. Not that it is wrong or a bad thing, but I guess we wouldn't agree on pretty much anything because we don't share the same view at all. Tossing "elitism" apart, we just don't take it as seriously (not RL serious but "let's do it right") and while for you a "feeling" is good enought, I require numbers because they don't lie and appear the same everytime whatever the variables you wanna throw.
    Last edited by Azarddoze; 05-26-2013 at 04:13 AM.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  4. #44
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    It is not that I misread you at all... it is the fact that you are basing your whole position on a "feeling" that the quest is easier with or without the hireling.
    Unfortunately you are not ever going to get the numbers.

    Without knowing the specifics of the builds you cannot know if you are comparing two like things or two unlike things. Any comparison you do will give numbers but those numbers are unreliable because they only apply to the specific situation for the test.

    The heuristic of quest completion does not give numbers but it does give an observable result that is sufficient for making decisions.

    If hire A enables a faster/easier/smoother completion and hire B does not then hire A is the better hire.

    You may not like the "feeling" but it is a more valid tool than the numbers because numbers are only valid when the whole set of parameters is known and measurable.

    At this point in time your "numbers" are nothing more than "feelings" either. But, because they are in isolation and not related to quest completion they are the less meaningful ones.

  5. #45
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    I require numbers because they don't lie and appear the same everytime whatever the variables you wanna throw.
    Ask and ye shall receive. I already posted this data earlier, but here is the most up to date set comparing the eOwlbear to the panther, and two other epic hirelings (Sadiele and Rovegar).


    Used the first wolf knight in Murder by Night as the control. None of the hires had any DR breaking items except the panther (not that it did it any good). None of the hires were buffed in any way.


    I am inclined to agree with Therigar that the Owlbear does not appear to be WAI, or at least is not working as described on paper. Unless the epic hires have insane stats we weren't aware of.

    It would be nice if someone else could run some scenarios with Sobrien on epic claw or something similar.
    Last edited by Postumus; 05-26-2013 at 04:41 AM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Ask and ye shall receive. I already posted this data earlier, but here is the most up to date set comparing the eOwlbear to the panther, and two other epic hirelings (Sadiele and Rovegar).


    Used the first wolf knight in Murder by Night as the control. None of the hires had any DR breaking items except the panther (not that it did it any good). None of the hires were buffed in any way.
    Yep saw those, thanks for testing it out by the way. At this point it is just obvious that the problem is that the Owlbear is in fact not as strong as it's stats shows. Very nice that Tolero did offer the stats so we actually could make a test to not only compare vs another hireling but also vs what it should be.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  7. #47
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    Yep saw those, thanks for testing it out by the way. At this point it is just obvious that the problem is that the Owlbear is in fact not as strong as it's stats shows. Very nice that Tolero did offer the stats so we actually could make a test to not only compare vs another hireling but also vs what it should be.

    Yeah no way does that thing have 91 str and 200 PRR right now. I just don't see it.

  8. #48
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Yeah no way does that thing have 91 str and 200 PRR right now. I just don't see it.
    I don't know about the 91 STR.... but your tests have proven that it does not have 200 PRR.

    Maybe we should all focus on that... 200 PRR not working... Try to get a fix or response for the one feature/stat we know is broken.

    I don't think we are going to get anywhere comparing the Owlbear to other hirelings.
    Dorian

  9. #49
    Hatchery Hero Sonos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    I don't think we are going to get anywhere comparing the Owlbear to other hirelings.

    I think you are in the wrong thread then.

  10. #50
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonos View Post
    I think you are in the wrong thread then.
    I hear ya.

    I would like, more than anyone, to have the Owlbear get upgraded. That's why we started comparing it to other epic hirelings and the panther.

    I'm just being realistic here... and hope we can get some kind of confirmation on PRR 200 being broken and turbine will work on a fix.
    Dorian

  11. #51
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Talk of proof. Here are screenshots from me questing.

    This first picture is the start of the quest with the hires. Note that my L18 character is in a L15 quest on normal with a L17 owlbear, L20 panther and L20 favored soul. Note also that the three hires are set to operate on their own without instruction from me.



    Here is the XP information from the end of the quest, first the quest itself with XP info and then the bottom of the XP window showing who did what.





    Now follows a series of pictures taken in quest showing kill count as the quest progressed. Note that from time to time the kill counts are even but the panther never seemed to get ahead of the owlbear.
















    I conclude that the owlbear functions fine compared to the other hirelings and out performs the panther that is 3 levels higher....
    And you've just shown conclusive proof that Albus {a Lvl 20 Heal specced FvS hireling with no DPS abilities whatsoever!} does at least as much DPS with just his Sword and Board as the Lvl 20 Panther and Lvl 17 Owlbear!

    I ask again - What is the point of Melee hires when Divine hires are clearly just as good at killing stuff?

    Also - If you'd taken Larafay rather than Albus that Kill Count would be severely skewed {and she's only Lvl 15!}.

  12. #52
    Community Manager Cordovan's Avatar
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    Closing thread as necro. There is a more current, active discussion on this subject here by the same OP.
    Have fun, and don't forget to gather for buffs!
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