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  1. #21
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I don't have time to do this tonight but as an idea since a lot of the debate is on owlbear dps, I'd like to offer the suggestion of putting them thru shade's old dps contest.

    Take the owlbear, panther, and Tarlov Snowtrack to the portal rare in reavers refuge and time how long it takes for them each to kill it. I'll try it out tomorrow if no one else gets to it first. This should at least answer the dps question for the hires.
    good idea.. hope someone have the time to do it.. sorta short on time these days.. else i would have done a better test.

    anywayz.. the only thing we really need is to get turbine's attention, and i believe we already had.(thats why i been posting here when ever i get a short break =P) am sure turbine will never use any of our test as fact, they will surely conduct their own test. how and how much turbine will improve the owlbear are out of our control.

  2. #22
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    question: should owlbear match the pather or should it match the hireling of it's own level?
    Neither, owlbear should match owlbear. When you compare things you compare things that are alike.

    I point out the panther piece because there are multiple threads on this topic and my first observation is that the owlbear is out performing the panther.

    Since the pather is L20 and the owlbear I was running was L17 the expectation would be that the panther would out perform. But it did not.

    If you include it you will possibly find that the order is hireling>owlbear>panther. Then you have to start a thread about how pitiful the panther is that it cannot out kill a L17 hire.

    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    second: panther is good because it have evasion, manslayer, it have metaline and align weapon. not because panther deal super damage. oh and panther's get stuck often in these kind of quest. it wouldn't be fair to call him there to show it's strength.

    third so in your opinion hire are useless, they are only there to take the last hit, but not to deal damage nor tanking? if you are doing the damage only thing matter is who get luck and have the last hit. ty for showing me how not to test hireling.. you testing hireling by kill everyone on your own. gj~~ in easy content stuff dies relatively fast, but not in harder content.

    fourth if you participating in the quest, you will get all the kill. any player deal way more damage then hireling does.. hireling will not out damage player, so they only get last hit when they are lucky. not when they deal heavy damage!

    last: two thing. first you consider using hire cheating, then why are you using them? stop cheating! pike to win? we are testing hireling not how lucky they are to get the last hit, not how fast the run to the npc and get their last hit.. we are testing hireling strength! oh.. also i know why you are so fearful of this hireling become balanced, because if these hireling are as good as any normal hireling at their level, no one will ever accept your kind into group.. pike to win.. ha try using hire in epic elite

    p.s. wow.. nice statement.. owlbear match the strength of normal hireling at it's level would be consider as pay to win and pike to win.. lol then why don't you delete all hire, and never use them again? why have this gold seal when it is much weaker then any hire at it's level?
    If you've read all the threads on this subject you'll note that the owlbear is having the same pathing issues that the panther has. But, your complaint there is invalid as you would have discovered on your own had you used the panther.

    Hires are not useless and neither are they there just to take the last hit. Where do you come up with such nonsense? The reason I used two melee hires and a healing hire was so that I could get through the quests more easily on my ranged character. The purpose of hires is to make the quest easier on me by relieving pressure on my character or doing things that I don't do well. This is what would normally happen in a group with real people. That function is performed by hires because real people were not available to run the quests when I wanted to run them.

    I'm going to skip your fourth point for a moment.

    Like your other statement about hires the one about me thinking that using them is cheating is also just over the top. Again, where do you get such silly ideas? I comment about the piking because that is what you are doing. You want to see if the hirelings perform a certain way so you pike and watch them. I am not piking. You are. We are getting different results because of this. That is absolutely evident from your own posts.

    Almost to the end, you are sitting watching the hires do all the fighting and then trying to compare them. You seem to want to do nothing in the quest. That isn't realistic. Just run the quests. Then see if the hires made it easier or harder for you to complete. Sitting back and piking is your technique and I'm not surprised that it isn't working out for you.

    Now, back to your fourth point.

    If players are stronger than hires isn't there a problem? After all, shouldn't a L25 hire be stronger than a L21 character? You see, your logic here is flawed. The strength and weakness of a character -- PC, NPC or creature -- is not measured simply by its level. There are a number of factors involved. You want two different hires to be equivalent to one another. That should never happen. If it did there would be no need for them to be different hires. What we want is some expectation that as a member of the group both will contribute roughly equally to the completion of the quest.

    I submit to you that this is the case with the heroic owlbear and the panther -- something that my questing shows. I also submit that this is the case with the epic owlbear and the panther -- something my questing also shows.

    If you'd just quest with them instead of making up ways to compare them -- and other hires -- then we could read the final quest reports and know if that is what actually happens.

  3. #23
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    If you'd just quest with them instead of making up ways to compare them -- and other hires -- then we could read the final quest reports and know if that is what actually happens.
    if i just quest with them? i just tried solo u15 on ee, and the owlbear die in second.. our healer are unable to heal him up..

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I comment about the piking because that is what you are doing. You want to see if the hirelings perform a certain way so you pike and watch them.
    aren't we testing hireling? or we are testing how fast hireling can keep up when we zerg through low level content? you are doing 95% or more damage, when hireling get last hit, it is not because they are doing meaningful damage, it is only because they are lucky. when you test the speed of light, you don't compare it with speed of voice. your test are verge, your theory make no sense.

    if you want to know how strong a hire is, you test it against a test stone. you don't cut down low mob and see how many lucky last hit your hire get.. that is just nonsense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    If players are stronger than hires isn't there a problem? After all, shouldn't a L25 hire be stronger than a L21 character?
    i never compare them with player character. your theory have major flaw, because in your mind normal hireling = player.. owlbear are level 25 hireling and their might should match normal level 25 hireling.

    if not it is not a gold seal, it is a crapy hireling with much higher level requirement and it will only bring up the dungeon scaling~~ which make things harder. why would anyone stupid enough to use this own bear? just pay a little pp and you get a much much stronger hire with way lower level requirement. does this sound right? or you only enjoy using inferior, useless hireling?



    when i solo on u15 eh afterward the epic owlbear die twice with a hireling healer healing him on the back.. the healer die as well... so i end up solo the quest without them.. i hope this prove my point.. or in your theory these owlbear are only for low content below 20?

    p.s. if you want we can run a ee together with them.. or any gh content with them if you want to try them on level 25 content.. my prime sever is sarlona, what is yours?

    also you might not know this, but when panther was release, it was way superior then any hire at its level range. later turbine decide to buff all hireling and the panther was left out... there have been some whining about panther not getting buff as other have.. but relatively speaking a level 20 hireling isn't much useful for end game content..so most of us didn't bother with it..(oh and if you don't know.. when panther was first sold, there are no level 25.. just as now when owlbear was released there are currently no level 28)
    Last edited by burningwind; 05-26-2013 at 03:31 AM.

  4. #24
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    At least he tried to support his conclusions with examples. Where are yours? I know it is easier to counter his conclusions because he provided evidence. Do the same and lets see if people are just as gentle. But it does not make your conclusions better, as you have no support.

    To the OP, any chance you can make a video vs. screenshots and post the video to Youtube and link so others can view. I am seriously curious how much of the Owlbear isn't WAI now that we know the stats.

    p.s. Anyone I guess could do the video. A quest would be best because of how static adventures are vs. an explorer area.
    You read my examples and ignored them. His screenshots are essentially worthless. I also have more detailed data in one of the three sister threads about this which shows how the eowlbear stacks up against other hires. So yes, my conclusions are actually based on data, not some screenshot showing kill counts which are meaningless and have no context.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Almost to the end, you are sitting watching the hires do all the fighting and then trying to compare them. You seem to want to do nothing in the quest. That isn't realistic. Just run the quests. Then see if the hires made it easier or harder for you to complete. Sitting back and piking is your technique and I'm not surprised that it isn't working out for you.

    Now, back to your fourth point.

    If players are stronger than hires isn't there a problem? After all, shouldn't a L25 hire be stronger than a L21 character? You see, your logic here is flawed. The strength and weakness of a character -- PC, NPC or creature -- is not measured simply by its level. There are a number of factors involved. You want two different hires to be equivalent to one another. That should never happen. If it did there would be no need for them to be different hires. What we want is some expectation that as a member of the group both will contribute roughly equally to the completion of the quest.
    You failed at science but perhaps philosophy would be good for you. J/K

    See, the more factors you add (like you DPSing), the less the result will be accurate and so will be what you are trying to compare. I feel like your sticking to your point while maybe you shouldn't...
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  6. #26
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    two thing:
    first how do you test prr and ac? especially when you do not see damage on your hireling. if you are mgihty as god do the test yourself and see.

    second if it take way more hp for owlbear to do the same task then it is definitely inferior. or you have a better way of testing?

    third are you suggesting that twf are way more superior then thf? true twf attak faster, but thf hit much harder. if soemthing have about 200 hp it will take 4 hit for twf to finish it, while thf will one hit it mostly.

    fourth if they are set to do the same job, while one always do it better. wouldn't you come to conclusion that it is superior?

    p.s. least but not last, both owlbear and hire are fighter class! they are both fighter, so why can't you compare them?
    Hmm, two things is five. Maybe the inability to count is part of the real problem.

    But, without knowing the AC and other mitigating information you cannot actually test the PRR. You can test it on your character by adding and removing equipment, noting the PRR values, and recording the damage taken. You can use that damage as a baseline to estimate the AC and PRR of the owlbear. But, you cannot know unless Turbine tells you what it is.

    That the owlbear takes more damage doing the same task isn't necessarily an indicator that it is inferior. My monk will take much more damage than most fighters -- he has virtually no PRR whatsoever. OTOH, he almost never has aggro so is almost never the subject of the attack. (He also has huge mitigating numbers so that most "hits" turn into misses.) The problem is in the way the test is conducted. Put my monk without the mitigating factors in front of a mob and he will die fast. That's not how he's meant to fight. If you use the owlbear in a way that doesn't play to its strengths you will probably get similar results.

    TWF ARE superior to THF for the vast majority of players and in the vast majority of situations. It has been a relatively recent development that THF has outpaced TWF in damage and that is only because of recent changes in the game and the change to the x[W] system for damage. All other things being relatively equal a TWF will easily outpace a THF character in overall damage and kills.

    If you have two NPCs set to do the same job and one always does it better then it is better. The problem might be that the job is one that favors one of those over the other. If I set my monk to heal he's not going to be nearly as good at it as the cleric. That is a gross example but still applies. Owlbear might not be designed to be a "tank" that gets and holds aggression. Maybe you're using it for the wrong function so that it clearly will be out performed by a fighter NPC that is intended for that task.

    And last, but still least, the reason you cannot compare two fighters to one another is because they are not the same thing. This is even true with player characters. One fighter may be built to tank while the other is built for DPS and the third is built for survivability. Tank fighter will have high DR/AC/PRR so that it takes little damage but should not normally lead in kills. DPS should lead in kills by needs lots of help with the damage it takes. Survivable character is somewhere in between the two extremes. Same with the hires. Simply having the same nominal class and levels does not make them the same.

  7. #27
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    message here
    i have one question, before i answer your question..

    why would you use owlbear at current state? it is worsen then any level 20 hireling.. it die faster, deal less damage.. and it require level 23 to use. it weight much higher in dungeon scaling..

    say, would you spend tiny bit of plat and get a level 20 hire which tank, dps really good.. or would you use a level 25 owlbear that require 23 level to use which dps less, die faster and weight more in dungeon scaling?

    p.s. it seem you like challenge, you enjoy increase dungeon scaling.. gold seal pull less weight in dungeon scaling because they are count as two level lower, but this owlbear is like five level lower in strength.. so you are acutally getting three extra level of dungeon scaling..

    oh.. if you think twf is better then thf, try beat my thf fighter with fighter ed..

  8. #28
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    You failed at science but perhaps philosophy would be good for you. J/K

    See, the more factors you add (like you DPSing), the less the result will be accurate and so will be what you are trying to compare. I feel like your sticking to your point while maybe you shouldn't...
    In a complex system failing to account for the full range gives skewed results. It is absolutely necessary to consider all factors when making comparisons. Otherwise you only know that for a specific reaction certain factors give greater results -- but, you don't know that the mitigating effect of the ignored factors balance, reduce or prevent the result you've predicted.

    The value of hirelings is not measured in terms of their individual performances on tests but by quest completions.

    If the hire enables that then the end results in the XP report gives the most accurate assessment of their contribution. In the case of melee hires L17 owlbear killing more than L20 panther implies that the owlbear is the better hire. Of course, the L20 favored soul getting the same number of kills and also healing everyone means that it is the better value.

    The fact that the quest became silly easy to complete with all the hires together means that all contributed and that there is no basis for complaining.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Hmm, two things is five. Maybe the inability to count is part of the real problem.

    But, without knowing the AC and other mitigating information you cannot actually test the PRR. You can test it on your character by adding and removing equipment, noting the PRR values, and recording the damage taken. You can use that damage as a baseline to estimate the AC and PRR of the owlbear. But, you cannot know unless Turbine tells you what it is.

    That the owlbear takes more damage doing the same task isn't necessarily an indicator that it is inferior. My monk will take much more damage than most fighters -- he has virtually no PRR whatsoever. OTOH, he almost never has aggro so is almost never the subject of the attack. (He also has huge mitigating numbers so that most "hits" turn into misses.) The problem is in the way the test is conducted. Put my monk without the mitigating factors in front of a mob and he will die fast. That's not how he's meant to fight. If you use the owlbear in a way that doesn't play to its strengths you will probably get similar results.

    TWF ARE superior to THF for the vast majority of players and in the vast majority of situations. It has been a relatively recent development that THF has outpaced TWF in damage and that is only because of recent changes in the game and the change to the x[W] system for damage. All other things being relatively equal a TWF will easily outpace a THF character in overall damage and kills.

    If you have two NPCs set to do the same job and one always does it better then it is better. The problem might be that the job is one that favors one of those over the other. If I set my monk to heal he's not going to be nearly as good at it as the cleric. That is a gross example but still applies. Owlbear might not be designed to be a "tank" that gets and holds aggression. Maybe you're using it for the wrong function so that it clearly will be out performed by a fighter NPC that is intended for that task.

    And last, but still least, the reason you cannot compare two fighters to one another is because they are not the same thing. This is even true with player characters. One fighter may be built to tank while the other is built for DPS and the third is built for survivability. Tank fighter will have high DR/AC/PRR so that it takes little damage but should not normally lead in kills. DPS should lead in kills by needs lots of help with the damage it takes. Survivable character is somewhere in between the two extremes. Same with the hires. Simply having the same nominal class and levels does not make them the same.
    100% Flawed

    AC/Avoidance doesn't change the numbers so no problem with PRR. (DR would)

    Monk stuff - Irrelevant

    Jobs... We're are looking at Hireling which all they can do (if non caster) is HIT and take HITs. Nothing else. So what should we compare?

    But seriously the last part is the shiny... Since 2 fighters may not have the same role, then let's compare a Wizard and a Fighter since it is probably more close to reality, right?
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  10. #30
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    In a complex system failing to account for the full range gives skewed results. It is absolutely necessary to consider all factors when making comparisons. Otherwise you only know that for a specific reaction certain factors give greater results -- but, you don't know that the mitigating effect of the ignored factors balance, reduce or prevent the result you've predicted.

    The value of hirelings is not measured in terms of their individual performances on tests but by quest completions.

    If the hire enables that then the end results in the XP report gives the most accurate assessment of their contribution. In the case of melee hires L17 owlbear killing more than L20 panther implies that the owlbear is the better hire. Of course, the L20 favored soul getting the same number of kills and also healing everyone means that it is the better value.

    The fact that the quest became silly easy to complete with all the hires together means that all contributed and that there is no basis for complaining.
    your theory is totally wrong. the only thing score board will show accurate is highest dps when you have an unbalance team. when you are doing 95% of the damage your hire will only do 5%.. either it split to 1% and 4% or 2% and 3% will not shown significant result. at this point all it means is your hireling get lucky and get the last hit..

    also as i said before, pather tend to get lost alot. which is why i did not bring it up. if you want to test the strength of hire, you test it against a test stone. it is a game not biology chemical mixture. neither panther nor owlbear have sneak attack nor extra flank bonus/damage. it make no sense to test it in your way. your fancy word will not make any change..

    p.s. if you want to prove, when don't you run a level 25 epic content on epic hard for 10+ times, and link the result..


    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    But seriously the last part is the shiny... Since 2 fighters may not have the same role, then let's compare a Wizard and a Fighter since it is probably more close to reality, right?
    thats why when i do my test, if fist let them solo same mob several times... either way owlbear are much less tanky then fighter of same level.. or two level or more below.. so is their dps..
    Last edited by burningwind; 05-26-2013 at 03:46 AM.

  11. #31
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    i have one question, before i answer your question..

    why would you use owlbear at current state? it is worsen then any level 20 hireling.. it die faster, deal less damage.. and it require level 23 to use. it weight much higher in dungeon scaling..

    say, would you spend tiny bit of plat and get a level 20 hire which tank, dps really good.. or would you use a level 25 owlbear that require 23 level to use which dps less, die faster and weight more in dungeon scaling?

    p.s. it seem you like challenge, you enjoy increase dungeon scaling.. gold seal pull less weight in dungeon scaling because they are count as two level lower, but this owlbear is like five level lower in strength.. so you are acutally getting three extra level of dungeon scaling..

    oh.. if you think twf is better then thf, try beat my thf fighter with fighter ed..
    Why use the owlbear? Because I can call it when and where I want without spending Turbine points.

    I cannot think of a situation where I would really want the owlbear in an epic quest. It is much easier to run solo than to have a hireling of any type. And, if I'm on a character that needs a hireling along I'm almost certain to need a clerical type for heals.

    I don't think TWF is better that THF in most cases, I know it is. THF only becomes better when gear, feats and epic destinies all align. Your hires don't have those. So, the TWF epic fighter is always going to outperform the owlbear which operates off a THF AI.

    PS, I hate dungeon scaling which is why I would almost never use a hire to start with. But, if I needed one then having one that I could auto summon anywhere in the dungeon would be much better than one that I had to summon from the start. Frankly, I would not use the epic hires ever unless they were divines or arcanes with enough AI to use their full spell choices in smart ways and to avoid pulling aggro they couldn't manage -- in other words, there isn't a good reason to have the hires to start with. I guess that if they let me run epic elite when groups were not available they'd have some value. But they don't, so they have no real use.

  12. #32
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    i have one question, before i answer your question..

    why would you use owlbear at current state? it is worsen then any level 20 hireling.. it die faster, deal less damage.. and it require level 23 to use. it weight much higher in dungeon scaling..
    I don't think it is worse than any L20 hireling. It is actually better in many respects than the panther and I had no problems using it in eGH or the eGH walkups I tried.



    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    say, would you spend tiny bit of plat and get a level 20 hire which tank, dps really good.. or would you use a level 25 owlbear that require 23 level to use which dps less, die faster and weight more in dungeon scaling?

    I would use the owlbear. To me the convenience of a permanent gold seal hireling far outweighs the slight advantage of the epic melee hirelings available with plat. I never purchase melee hirelings, but I use the panther all the time and I expect I will use the owlbear as frequently.

  13. #33
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Why use the owlbear? Because I can call it when and where I want without spending Turbine points.

    I cannot think of a situation where I would really want the owlbear in an epic quest. It is much easier to run solo than to have a hireling of any type. And, if I'm on a character that needs a hireling along I'm almost certain to need a clerical type for heals.

    I don't think TWF is better that THF in most cases, I know it is. THF only becomes better when gear, feats and epic destinies all align. Your hires don't have those. So, the TWF epic fighter is always going to outperform the owlbear which operates off a THF AI.

    PS, I hate dungeon scaling which is why I would almost never use a hire to start with. But, if I needed one then having one that I could auto summon anywhere in the dungeon would be much better than one that I had to summon from the start. Frankly, I would not use the epic hires ever unless they were divines or arcanes with enough AI to use their full spell choices in smart ways and to avoid pulling aggro they couldn't manage -- in other words, there isn't a good reason to have the hires to start with. I guess that if they let me run epic elite when groups were not available they'd have some value. But they don't, so they have no real use.
    what make your think epic hireling don't have these? all epic hireling have epic destiny.. more or less. go check it out in gh or eveningstar.

    again, what you don't need does not mean other do want want. if you don't care, why prevent other getting it? are you evil alignment? confusing.. hireling are stupid, in most dungeon they will only do more harm then good...i don't see why not improve this hireling, it might come in handy when clear slayer area or when you felt boring, you could turn it up and play with it without making things harder..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I don't think it is worse than any L20 hireling. It is actually better in many respects than the panther and I had no problems using it in eGH or the eGH walkups I tried.

    I would use the owlbear. To me the convenience of a permanent gold seal hireling far outweighs the slight advantage of the epic melee hirelings available with plat. I never purchase melee hirelings, but I use the panther all the time and I expect I will use the owlbear as frequently.
    Now THAT is honesty .

    From what I've read there is no point in defending the quality of the owlbear atm in term of utility (for the level). But the convenience on the other hand may appear very nice to some. Add to the the fact that it's "different" and it's kind of "your" hireling if you're into immersion.
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  15. #35
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I don't think it is worse than any L20 hireling. It is actually better in many respects than the panther and I had no problems using it in eGH or the eGH walkups I tried.
    last time when they buff hireling they left the panther out.. so panther is acutally inferior then normal level 20 hireling.. you can try grab one and test.. i did test on the other post with level 19 fighting hire..






    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I would use the owlbear. To me the convenience of a permanent gold seal hireling far outweighs the slight advantage of the epic melee hirelings available with plat. I never purchase melee hirelings, but I use the panther all the time and I expect I will use the owlbear as frequently.
    well panther is level 20.. it is still decent since it is still ok.. it survive good and sorta match a level 17 hire or so.. so it will not make things harder. but owl bear is level 25.. as a gold seal it count as a level 23 epic hireling. but it is by far inferior. so calling him will only make your quest harder...

  16. #36
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    what make your think epic hireling don't have these? all epic hireling have epic destiny.. more or less..
    I don't think English is your native language so I don't think you are grasping all of what I am saying.

    That epic hirelings have epic destinies doesn't mean much. Unless the destiny is built to give maximum advantage to the fighting style the hireling that is running with TWF will out perform the one running with THF.

    This is easy enough to understand if you thing about player's characters. You get your best DPS from a THF character that has taken all of the beneficial epic destiny enhancements. If the character does not do that then their DPS rapidly falls below that of the TWF characters.

    Because players did not design the hirelings they almost never have the optimal choices in their epic destiny trees. The result is that it should not be surprising at all that a TWF epic hire out performs a THF epic hire. In fact, that should be the expected result.

  17. #37
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I don't think English is your native language so I don't think you are grasping all of what I am saying.

    That epic hirelings have epic destinies doesn't mean much. Unless the destiny is built to give maximum advantage to the fighting style the hireling that is running with TWF will out perform the one running with THF.

    This is easy enough to understand if you thing about player's characters. You get your best DPS from a THF character that has taken all of the beneficial epic destiny enhancements. If the character does not do that then their DPS rapidly falls below that of the TWF characters.

    Because players did not design the hirelings they almost never have the optimal choices in their epic destiny trees. The result is that it should not be surprising at all that a TWF epic hire out performs a THF epic hire. In fact, that should be the expected result.
    i guess you don't know mmo much.. npc do not equip gears usually.. their skill and gear stats are mostly build in.. what is epic destiny? some active and passive. their passive been buildin, and active given on hot bar.. i don't see what they are missing..

    p.s. or you are a dev or hacker who can see their stats and passive ability..

  18. #38
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azarddoze View Post
    100% Flawed

    AC/Avoidance doesn't change the numbers so no problem with PRR. (DR would)
    No, I am right and 100% so.

    I can have zero AC and zero PRR, if I have 100% avoidance I never take damage.

    I can have absolute AC and absolute PRR, if I have 0% avoidance I never take damage.

    Between these two extremes there is a whole range of possibilities that change as each factor is increased or decreased.

    When talking hires of the same type you must consider the differences in these areas to judge whether they are taking hits too often and too hard.

    Owlbear, panther or hire it is much more than just whether it hits and takes hits. If that is your only measure of comparison then you should not use either creature as neither compares with equivalent level hires.

    But, if you use them as part of a quest group with adequate support, buffs, etc. then you can judge based on quest completion v quest failure. Frankly, all the damage given, taken, kills, etc. is just a red herring.

    Do the creatures give you more members in the group and does that make completing the quest easier? If yes they use, if no then don't use. Pretty simple really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    No, I am right and 100% so.

    I can have zero AC and zero PRR, if I have 100% avoidance I never take damage.

    I can have absolute AC and absolute PRR, if I have 0% avoidance I never take damage.

    Between these two extremes there is a whole range of possibilities that change as each factor is increased or decreased.

    When talking hires of the same type you must consider the differences in these areas to judge whether they are taking hits too often and too hard.

    Owlbear, panther or hire it is much more than just whether it hits and takes hits. If that is your only measure of comparison then you should not use either creature as neither compares with equivalent level hires.

    But, if you use them as part of a quest group with adequate support, buffs, etc. then you can judge based on quest completion v quest failure. Frankly, all the damage given, taken, kills, etc. is just a red herring.

    Do the creatures give you more members in the group and does that make completing the quest easier? If yes they use, if no then don't use. Pretty simple really.
    I know you said you were anti-stupidity in the other thread so i'll be short. So am I.

    Have a good day.
    Kal Vas Flam... Corp Por... Corp Por

    ...And then there was silence

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    i guess you don't know mmo much.. npc do not equip gears usually.. their skill and gear stats are mostly build in.. what is epic destiny? some active and passive. their passive been buildin, and active given on hot bar.. i don't see what they are missing..

    p.s. or you are a dev or hacker who can see their stats and passive ability..
    I know THIS mmo which is more than seems to be true for you.

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