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  1. #1
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Default Epic Owlbear VS Epic HIreling

    Well.. it turn out some of the people think owlbear are fine.. so i thought making this comparison between real epic hireling and this owlbear.. to show the true fact

    Here are the hire i use:

    Sadiele an epic level 23 fighter..(i don't want to spend astral shard, have no access to level 25 fighter hire)


    The epic Level 25 fighter Owlbear~~ which we spend 40 dollars to acquire..




    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Many people use epic gianthold slayer area as the test ground.. but there are no score board for slayer area.. so i use an epic quest~~ The Druid Curse Normal as the testing ground of this quest..

    First i will use the Wood Woad at entrance of this quest to test both hireling. here is the info of this mob.. cr 24 no special dr or anything~~ should be fair
    [img]
    [/img]


    Owlbear 493/1038 Loss: 545
    Sadiele 688/779 Loss: 91
    level 23 fighter Hireling wins...



    Owlbear 539/1038 Loss: 499
    Sadiele 693/779 Loss: 86
    level 23 fighter Hireling wins...



    Owlbear 601/1038 Loss: 437
    Sadiele 737/779 Loss: 42
    level 23 fighter Hireling wins...



    Average
    Loss Owlbear: 493 hp lost
    Sadiele: 219 hp lost
    Result: Level 23 epic fighter hire wins.. as you all can see, even a level 23 hireling is way better then the level 25 epic owlbear we get from this expansion..










    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [/b]I know, some of you will not admit the true, and demand for more proof. so i brought both hire together for a final test~~ [/b]


    Saddiele kill: 6
    Owlbear kill: 0
    level 23 fighter Hireling wins...



    Saddiele kill: 6
    Owlbear kill: 1
    level 23 fighter Hireling wins...



    Saddiele kill: 5
    Owlbear kill: 1
    level 23 fighter Hireling wins...




    Result: Level 23 epic fighter hire wins.. i have nothing more to say, am sure everyone can see the result..
    Last edited by burningwind; 05-25-2013 at 10:30 PM.

  2. #2
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    Therigar brought up a relevant point in the Owlbear vs. Panther thread. Sadiele will be chugging potions to maintain her health while the Owlbear does not have that option. More reason why it should've been crafted as a Barbarian with Fury of the Wild and Fast Healing.
    Last edited by Keltarrin; 05-25-2013 at 10:29 PM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    I am glad that you have nothing more to say because you have said nothing thus far.

    I do appreciate that you at least provided us with the quest information this time so that we can replicate your test.

    However, you continue to make poor comparisons.

    First, the hireling will have its own source of healing that it will use as needed.

    Second, the measure of any character is their gear. This also holds for hirelings.

    Third, you provided only a limited test in which you depended on the hirelings to do all of the work. Run the quest from start to finish as if it were a real quest in which you are actively participating instead of piking.

    If your intent is to show that the owlbear won't complete the quest for you because it is taking damage then I'll refer you to the speculation of others that the PRR is not WAI. However, if you quit with the artificial tests that you've manufactured and just work through the quest treating the hirelings as you would any other party member (by which I mean you provide some healing support and you turn them loose to act on their own) then we'd actually have something meaningful to compare.

  4. #4
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    First, the hireling will have its own source of healing that it will use as needed.
    .
    true, but hireling will not use potion unless her health is below 40% and she have never use any potion during this test. if you do not believe, you may try it yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Second, the measure of any character is their gear. This also holds for hirelings.
    .
    True, thats why i test three times. hireling now have random gear, but the array is very small. mostly it is the element of their weapon.. which does not effect test result.. as wood woad haven o special resistance as far as i know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Third, you provided only a limited test in which you depended on the hirelings to do all of the work. Run the quest from start to finish as if it were a real quest in which you are actively participating instead of piking.
    .
    i assume three test is enough, as all three result are very close to each other. i do not have the time to do the sametime hundred of times, but owlbear suck is a common knowledge among player.

    the score board will only shows how lucky each hireling were if i take them through quest(for getting last hit).. as all my toon deal way more dps then these hireling, not likely it will prove anything. walk through the entire quest and letting hire do all the work will take too long and too boring, i do not enjoy staying back and heal them for hours.

    p.s. if you have any doubt then try this quest, or any slayer area with these hireling.. the result are very clear without any doubt.

  5. #5
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    t is taking damage then I'll refer you to the speculation of others that the PRR is not WAI. However, if you quit with the artificial tests that you've manufactured and just work through the quest treating the hirelings as you would any other party member (by which I mean you provide some healing support and you turn them loose to act on their own) then we'd actually have something meaningful to compare.
    Don't listen to anything Therigar has to say on this matter. He/She has already admitting to only using the Heroic level Hireling.

    Do some testing with the level 25 hireling in level appropriate level content and get back to us. You are doing a disservice to the entire DDO community by posting your uniformed information.

    Try out the level 25 EPIC leveling hireling. Dont base your opinion on the Heroic content.
    Dorian

  6. #6
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Default Need to work on your 'tests'

    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    Well.. it turn out some of the people think owlbear are fine.. so i thought making this comparison between real epic hireling and this owlbear.. to show the true fact

    You need to put some context around your comparisons. What are you testing? That the hirelings can kill the woad by themselves? Which hireling takes less damage overall? Which does more damage overall? It looks like you just awarded the 'win' to Sadiel simply because that hireling took less damage.


    Your last two examples I have no idea what you are even comparing. Did you have both hirelings fight 7 creatures and determine that Sadiel was better because it got the kill shot on 6 of them? That doesn't prove anything except Sadiel got the last hit 6 out of seven times. It doesn't say which hireling did more damage.


    I've spent the last hour comparing Rovegar's (L21 fighter hire) to the Owlbear in eGH. Rovegar is averaging about the same amount of damage as the owlbear but he seems to take much less damage because his AC is superior to the owlbear. I let a Stormsworn Earthcaller swing at him for over five minutes and it never seemed to connect with a physical attack, only magical ones. On the other hand, Owlbear seems to take physical damage almost every swing.


    Hireling Sledge (L22 Barb) does about 25%-30% more damage than Owlbear. But he takes damage at about the same rate. You also cannot heal him with anything other than repair spells.


    At first glance epic hirelings seem to be as good or better than the Owlbear. The fighters certainly seem to take a lot less damage than Owlbear so I have a hard time believing Owlbear's 200 PRR unless the AC is much lower than the epic hires (which might make sense).


    As for your conclusion that the unlimited gold seal hire Owlbear is not worth $40? How do you figure the hires cost $40? The expansion collector's edition pre-order is only $50, and the two Owlbear hirelings are just two of many goodies that I wanted. If you have to put a $ value on the Owlbear hires, I'd say it's more like $5 for both considering what everything else in the pack cost if you purchased it separately.


    Is a gold seal epic hire you can summon unlimited times worth $5? It is for me. Can people live without it? Obviously.

  7. #7
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I've spent the last hour comparing Rovegar's (L21 fighter hire) to the Owlbear in eGH. Rovegar is averaging about the same amount of damage as the owlbear but he seems to take much less damage because his AC is superior to the owlbear. I let a Stormsworn Earthcaller swing at him for over five minutes and it never seemed to connect with a physical attack, only magical ones. On the other hand, Owlbear seems to take physical damage almost every swing.


    Hireling Sledge (L22 Barb) does about 25%-30% more damage than Owlbear. But he takes damage at about the same rate. You also cannot heal him with anything other than repair spells.


    At first glance epic hirelings seem to be as good or better than the Owlbear. The fighters certainly seem to take a lot less damage than Owlbear so I have a hard time believing Owlbear's 200 PRR unless the AC is much lower than the epic hires (which might make sense).
    This is great testing.... and I applaud you for taking the time to post your results.

    So you are comparing the level 21 and 22 to hirelings to the level 25 Owlbear. And in each case... the other hirelings beat out the Owlbear... despite being lower level... right?

    I don't know that the fighter hireling just has more AC.... remember, they say the Owlbear has 200 PRR... NO WAY that is working.

    Again, thanks for your informed testing results. And I (and the ddo community) appreciate your testing. (even if it goes against my position)
    Dorian

  8. #8
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    This is great testing.... and I applaud you for taking the time to post your results.

    So you are comparing the level 21 and 22 to hirelings to the level 25 Owlbear. And in each case... the other hirelings beat out the Owlbear... despite being lower level... right?

    I don't know that the fighter hireling just has more AC.... remember, they say the Owlbear has 200 PRR... NO WAY that is working.

    Again, thanks for your informed testing results. And I (and the ddo community) appreciate your testing. (even if it goes against my position)
    Thanks. Yeah it does appear (from what I have posted) that the eOwlbear is about the same as a L21/22 melee hire. Definitely takes more damage so either the PRR isn't working, or they need to crank up the AC so it gets hit 1/4 of the time it does now.

    Did anyone see what the posted AC for eOwlbear was?

  9. #9
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    You need to put some context around your comparisons. What are you testing? That the hirelings can kill the woad by themselves? Which hireling takes less damage overall? Which does more damage overall? It looks like you just awarded the 'win' to Sadiel simply because that hireling took less damage.


    Your last two examples I have no idea what you are even comparing. Did you have both hirelings fight 7 creatures and determine that Sadiel was better because it got the kill shot on 6 of them? That doesn't prove anything except Sadiel got the last hit 6 out of seven times. It doesn't say which hireling did more damage.


    I've spent the last hour comparing Rovegar's (L21 fighter hire) to the Owlbear in eGH. Rovegar is averaging about the same amount of damage as the owlbear but he seems to take much less damage because his AC is superior to the owlbear. I let a Stormsworn Earthcaller swing at him for over five minutes and it never seemed to connect with a physical attack, only magical ones. On the other hand, Owlbear seems to take physical damage almost every swing.


    Hireling Sledge (L22 Barb) does about 25%-30% more damage than Owlbear. But he takes damage at about the same rate. You also cannot heal him with anything other than repair spells.


    At first glance epic hirelings seem to be as good or better than the Owlbear. The fighters certainly seem to take a lot less damage than Owlbear so I have a hard time believing Owlbear's 200 PRR unless the AC is much lower than the epic hires (which might make sense).


    As for your conclusion that the unlimited gold seal hire Owlbear is not worth $40? How do you figure the hires cost $40? The expansion collector's edition pre-order is only $50, and the two Owlbear hirelings are just two of many goodies that I wanted. If you have to put a $ value on the Owlbear hires, I'd say it's more like $5 for both considering what everything else in the pack cost if you purchased it separately.


    Is a gold seal epic hire you can summon unlimited times worth $5? It is for me. Can people live without it? Obviously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    You need to put some context around your comparisons. What are you testing? That the hirelings can kill the woad by themselves? Which hireling takes less damage overall? Which does more damage overall? It looks like you just awarded the 'win' to Sadiel simply because that hireling took less damage.
    everything about the test is in the screenshot, if you have issue seeing and understand, then i don't felt any need to explain further more, as it should be simple and straight


    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Your last two examples I have no idea what you are even comparing. Did you have both hirelings fight 7 creatures and determine that Sadiel was better because it got the kill shot on 6 of them? That doesn't prove anything except Sadiel got the last hit 6 out of seven times. It doesn't say which hireling did more damage.
    if one hireling get much more kill shot then the other one, continually for three times, perhaps it means something.. if you want more, you can do more test, three times of similar result is all i need to make my statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I've spent the last hour comparing Rovegar's (L21 fighter hire) to the Owlbear in eGH. Rovegar is averaging about the same amount of damage as the owlbear but he seems to take much less damage because his AC is superior to the owlbear. I let a Stormsworn Earthcaller swing at him for over five minutes and it never seemed to connect with a physical attack, only magical ones. On the other hand, Owlbear seems to take physical damage almost every swing.
    owlbear is a epic level 25 hireling, you should not comparing it with a level 21 hireling. also it is very hard to tell their dps by looking at numbers, as owlbear have much slower attack animation.

    also not all giant in gh slayer area have the same ac, health. your test is invalid because you fail to produce a standard testing stone before you do the testing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    As for your conclusion that the unlimited gold seal hire Owlbear is not worth $40? How do you figure the hires cost $40? The expansion collector's edition pre-order is only $50, and the two Owlbear hirelings are just two of many goodies that I wanted. If you have to put a $ value on the Owlbear hires, I'd say it's more like $5 for both considering what everything else in the pack cost if you purchased it separately.
    owlbear hireling is the major reason why most people get the legendary upgrade. if that does not suit for your case then you can ignore it. but for me, i certainly wouldn't my friend getting this expansion nor the legendary upgrade if turbine fail to improve this owlbear. as level 28 content are coming, i doubt this hire will have any use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Is a gold seal epic hire you can summon unlimited times worth $5? It is for me. Can people live without it? Obviously
    you have stab yourself here with your own blade, how you get to the number of $5? epic tome of learning are sorta worthless as epic destiny only require one time grinding, and normal epic level are fairly easy and fast. and the fact the epic level are not required for tr, plus the new iconic hero do not have this option of tring.. in your theory this entire expansion worth less then $5 and they are selling for $90

    p.s. a unlimited use gold seal epic hire wroth more then $5, but this owlbear is not truly gold seal, as gold seal can be summon two level below their actual level. this owlbear though state to be level 25, is really inferior then any normal level 20 hire, so it is actually junk seal which it take 3 level more to summon the hireling of same might and power. and for that it doesn't worth a penny.
    Last edited by burningwind; 05-25-2013 at 11:12 PM.

  10. #10
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    owlbear hireling is the major reason why most people get the legendary upgrade. if that does not suit for your case then you can ignore it. but for me, i certainly wouldn't my friend getting this expansion nor the legendary upgrade if turbine fail to improve this owlbear. as level 28 content are coming, i doubt this hire will have any use.
    This is a great point here... if the level 25 hireling can't keep up with the current content... how will it perform with the level 28 content coming?

    I thought we were buying things for the new expansion (level 28 content).
    Dorian

  11. #11
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    This is a great point here... if the level 25 hireling can't keep up with the current content... how will it perform with the level 28 content coming?

    I thought we were buying things for the new expansion (level 28 content).
    The problem here is that you've no evidence that the eOwlbear is not keeping up with content. You only have some tests in which you sent your creature against mobs without providing any support whatsoever.

    Run an entire quest treating the creature as a regular member of the party -- party buffs, heals, etc. Then look to see if it is holding its own through the quest.

    The hOwlbear does just fine. There is nothing thus far to demonstrate that the eOwlbear will do differently.

  12. #12
    Community Member AbyssalMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I've spent the last hour comparing Rovegar's (L21 fighter hire) to the Owlbear in eGH. Rovegar is averaging about the same amount of damage as the owlbear but he seems to take much less damage because his AC is superior to the owlbear. I let a Stormsworn Earthcaller swing at him for over five minutes and it never seemed to connect with a physical attack, only magical ones. On the other hand, Owlbear seems to take physical damage almost every swing.


    Hireling Sledge (L22 Barb) does about 25%-30% more damage than Owlbear. But he takes damage at about the same rate. You also cannot heal him with anything other than repair spells.


    At first glance epic hirelings seem to be as good or better than the Owlbear. The fighters certainly seem to take a lot less damage than Owlbear so I have a hard time believing Owlbear's 200 PRR unless the AC is much lower than the epic hires (which might make sense).
    At least he tried to support his conclusions with examples. Where are yours? I know it is easier to counter his conclusions because he provided evidence. Do the same and lets see if people are just as gentle. But it does not make your conclusions better, as you have no support.

    To the OP, any chance you can make a video vs. screenshots and post the video to Youtube and link so others can view. I am seriously curious how much of the Owlbear isn't WAI now that we know the stats.

    p.s. Anyone I guess could do the video. A quest would be best because of how static adventures are vs. an explorer area.

  13. #13
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Talk of proof. Here are screenshots from me questing.

    This first picture is the start of the quest with the hires. Note that my L18 character is in a L15 quest on normal with a L17 owlbear, L20 panther and L20 favored soul. Note also that the three hires are set to operate on their own without instruction from me.



    Here is the XP information from the end of the quest, first the quest itself with XP info and then the bottom of the XP window showing who did what.





    Now follows a series of pictures taken in quest showing kill count as the quest progressed. Note that from time to time the kill counts are even but the panther never seemed to get ahead of the owlbear.
















    I conclude that the owlbear functions fine compared to the other hirelings and out performs the panther that is 3 levels higher....

  14. #14
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Talk of proof. Here are screenshots from me questing.
    I conclude that the owlbear functions fine compared to the other hirelings and out performs the panther that is 3 levels higher....
    you have proven nothing.. first the quest have alot of turn, the panther get stuck/lost in times. second the hireling you takling about is a healing fvs, it is not fighter. you do not compare fighter with fvs. third you are to prove that owlbear are good for their level, not that they do more damage then the panther. as panther itself need improvement, it get left out last time they improve hireling.

  15. #15
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    you have proven nothing.. first the quest have alot of turn, the panther get stuck/lost in times. second the hireling you takling about is a healing fvs, it is not fighter. you do not compare fighter with fvs. third you are to prove that owlbear are good for their level, not that they do more damage then the panther. as panther itself need improvement, it get left out last time they improve hireling.
    You have an excuse for everything don't you.

    I have said that the hOwlbear seems to perform fine for me and that compared to the panther gets more kills. I have said that I've done 6 different quests with the two of them and that this seems to be the situation. I provided a series of screenshots that I would not normally do -- because I've been on the forums long enough and established my reputation here well enough that there is reason for people to accept that what I'm posting is trustworthy. But, the two people objecting most vigorously are complaining about lack of proof by people who are observing that they are not see the magnitude of problem.

    So, I took the time to actually run a full quest and to take screenshots throughout.

    For what it is worth, none of the hires seemed to get lost and they all seemed to keep up with me just fine. Maybe you should try running the quest with the hires I used and with your lead character actively involved in killing stuff along the way. Then we can compare results and see if there is a real issue here.

    Now, because the test was with hOwlbear in a heroic and below level quest, I logged on with my L25 monk and ran Bargain of Blood on ehard. This is a quest that I typically solo on ehard.

    Normally I will complete without ever being in real danger. Today the character died in the quest just past the second gate. The order of deaths were: eOwlbear, panther, monk.

    This happened because the owlbear and panther pulled aggro from the full set of mobs inside the encounter area and the mobs opened the gate on their own to get to the hires. When soloing I have never had the mobs inside the gated area open the gate for me -- I've always had to hit the lever to open the gate.

    When the full mass of mobs came they overwhelmed the group.

    This indicates to me that neither of the creatures is of any particular value to me in epic content because, when I am soloing, I want to control the pace of the encounters and kill the mobs in small increments.

    Obviously this might be a different situation for someone running a character with large AoE spell abilities or able to mass hold or mass charm -- or even a character with crowd control spells. But, since these are not my normal sets of abilities I prefer to chip away at the mobs in smaller groups -- pulling large numbers is always dangerous.

    Note also that I took no additional healing -- the creatures were forced to operate on their own.

    FWIW, up until we all died only the monk registered any kills. This leads me to conclude that both creatures are entirely worthless in epic content. OTOH, I intentionally set them up for failure with no healing abilities and there was an unexpected mob AI response with them opening the gate.

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    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Talk of proof. Here are screenshots from me questing.

    This first picture is the start of the quest with the hires. Note that my L18 character is in a L15 quest on normal with a L17 owlbear, L20 panther and L20 favored soul. Note also that the three hires are set to operate on their own without instruction from me.



    Here is the XP information from the end of the quest, first the quest itself with XP info and then the bottom of the XP window showing who did what.





    Now follows a series of pictures taken in quest showing kill count as the quest progressed. Note that from time to time the kill counts are even but the panther never seemed to get ahead of the owlbear.
















    I conclude that the owlbear functions fine compared to the other hirelings and out performs the panther that is 3 levels higher....
    And you've just shown conclusive proof that Albus {a Lvl 20 Heal specced FvS hireling with no DPS abilities whatsoever!} does at least as much DPS with just his Sword and Board as the Lvl 20 Panther and Lvl 17 Owlbear!

    I ask again - What is the point of Melee hires when Divine hires are clearly just as good at killing stuff?

    Also - If you'd taken Larafay rather than Albus that Kill Count would be severely skewed {and she's only Lvl 15!}.

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    Closing thread as necro. There is a more current, active discussion on this subject here by the same OP.
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  18. #18
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbyssalMage View Post
    At least he tried to support his conclusions with examples. Where are yours? I know it is easier to counter his conclusions because he provided evidence. Do the same and lets see if people are just as gentle. But it does not make your conclusions better, as you have no support.

    To the OP, any chance you can make a video vs. screenshots and post the video to Youtube and link so others can view. I am seriously curious how much of the Owlbear isn't WAI now that we know the stats.

    p.s. Anyone I guess could do the video. A quest would be best because of how static adventures are vs. an explorer area.
    You read my examples and ignored them. His screenshots are essentially worthless. I also have more detailed data in one of the three sister threads about this which shows how the eowlbear stacks up against other hires. So yes, my conclusions are actually based on data, not some screenshot showing kill counts which are meaningless and have no context.

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