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  1. #21
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    First, I'm not convinced that PRR isn't working -- only that it does not appear to be. Since there's no real easy way to compare I'd suggest letting a mob hit your character a few times when it has no AC or PRR and noting the damage numbers. Next, let the mob hit the owlbear and note the damage numbers.

    If damage is not changing then PRR isn't functioning.
    So I ran another experiment that was a bit more controlled than my eGH tests. I pitted the panther, the eowlbear, Sadiele (L23 fighter/LD hire), and Rovegar against the first Wolf Knight (CR 31) in heroic elite Murder by Knight. I used a stopwatch to time how long it took for the Wolf Knight to kill each hireling, and how long it took each hireling to kill the Wolf Knight. I was going to run each iteration 3 times, but I got bored near the end and also it didn't really seem relevant to run some of the tests more than once as you will see.

    I entered the quest on elite. Set the hireling to attack, hit the stopwatch when the knight transformed into the wolf, and stood back and healed the hire until it killed the knight. Then I reset the quest and refrained from healing the hire while the knight killed it. I estimate my margin for error is probably around +/-:02.


    SADIELE (L20 fighter/L2 LD):

    Average time to kill wolf knight: 1:35. (fastest time was 1:23, slowest was 2:14).

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: 1:53 if allowed to drink pots. (I ran it once where I put her on passive and she only lasted 1:17)


    PANTHER (L20 fighter):

    Average time to kill wolf knight: approximately 6:32 (I quit after 3:16 when the wolf knight was still at 50% health).

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: :57 (quickest fight was :53, longest fight was :59)


    eOWLBEAR (L25 whatever):

    Time to kill wolf knight: 4:31 (I only ran this once. It could be a crazy outlier, but I doubt it would ever get close to 2:00)

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: :37 (quickest fight was :35, longest was :39)


    For the heck of it I ran Rovegar through Murder by Night once to see how long it could take him to kill the knight. I got interrupted before I could run one where he was killed by the knight.


    ROVEGAR (L20 fighter/L1 LD):

    Time to kill wolf knight: 3:23


    The Owlbear is by far the least able to take damage despite having 300 more HPs than Sadiele. It is a serious mana sponge in one-on-one fights like this. I went through almost 20 heal scrolls keeping it alive, plus 500 SPs of CLW, 1 lay on hands, and healing spring. The other hires only needed healing spring and CLW to stay alive while fighting the wolf knight.


    Based on this information, plus what I saw in eGH, I find it hard to believe the eOwlbear has 200PRR. I suppose it is possible that it has a really high PRR and the AC is incredibly low so even though it has high DR, it gets hit a lot more than the fighter hires. Regardless, it really should survive longer than the panther does in a fight like this.
    Last edited by Postumus; 05-26-2013 at 12:22 AM.

  2. #22
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Based on this information, plus what I saw in eGH, I find it hard to believe the eOwlbear has 200PRR. I suppose it is possible that it has a really high PRR and the AC is incredibly low so even though it has high DR, it gets hit a lot more than the fighter hires. Regardless, it really should survive longer than the panther does in a fight like this.
    This is a worthwhile test. Thank you for running it.

    What it show is several things. First, my assertion that the creatures are pretty worthless in elite content has merit -- both died miserably fast and took forever to kill something.

    Second, it shows that there is either an intentional disconnect between the owlbear's AC and PRR or things are not WAI.

    Frankly, I'm not concerned that the creatures don't perform on par with the NPC. But, it is reasonable to expect that a L25 creature should perform better than a L20 creature.

    So, it appears that the owlbear is not yet WAI (what I think is the probable issue).

    I'd give you more rep for doing the test in a meaningful way but I've given too much to you on this already -- or so the forums say.

  3. #23
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    One thing maybe worth looking at....

    The armor system changed as did the way in which hits were calculated and mitigated. Maybe the panther has some effects that prevent it from being hit at all. For example, is it blurry, does it have dodge, etc.

    We know that the secret now to avoid damage is a combination of AC/PRR/incorporeality/dodge/blur. Even with equivalent AC and PRR the panther would take less damage if it was blurry/ghostly/dodging and the owlbear wasn't.

    Maybe everything IS WAI but the developers just didn't anticipate very well or take the whole range of effects into account. We already know that they don't really understand the game from a player's POV.

  4. #24
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    One thing maybe worth looking at....

    The armor system changed as did the way in which hits were calculated and mitigated. Maybe the panther has some effects that prevent it from being hit at all. For example, is it blurry, does it have dodge, etc.

    We know that the secret now to avoid damage is a combination of AC/PRR/incorporeality/dodge/blur. Even with equivalent AC and PRR the panther would take less damage if it was blurry/ghostly/dodging and the owlbear wasn't.

    Maybe everything IS WAI but the developers just didn't anticipate very well or take the whole range of effects into account. We already know that they don't really understand the game from a player's POV.
    they did not update the panther last time they patch all hireling. it was keep the way it use to be. i tried cast blur on it, and it work. which means cat do not have perm blur item.

    oh.. please explain why people refuse to have balance hireling? why are there people who demand owlbear weaker then any hire at it's level? so hard to understand~~~ almost as if hireling are taking your spot in the group





    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    So I ran another experiment that was a bit more controlled than my eGH tests. I pitted the panther, the eowlbear, Sadiele (L23 fighter/LD hire), and Rovegar against the first Wolf Knight (CR 31) in heroic elite Murder by Knight. I used a stopwatch to time how long it took for the Wolf Knight to kill each hireling, and how long it took each hireling to kill the Wolf Knight. I was going to run each iteration 3 times, but I got bored near the end and also it didn't really seem relevant to run some of the tests more than once as you will see.

    I entered the quest on elite. Set the hireling to attack, hit the stopwatch when the knight transformed into the wolf, and stood back and healed the hire until it killed the knight. Then I reset the quest and refrained from healing the hire while the knight killed it. I estimate my margin for error is probably around +/-:02.


    SADIELE (L20 fighter/L2 LD):

    Average time to kill wolf knight: 1:35. (fastest time was 1:23, slowest was 2:14).

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: 1:53 if allowed to drink pots. (I ran it once where I put her on passive and she only lasted 1:17)


    PANTHER (L20 fighter):

    Average time to kill wolf knight: approximately 6:32 (I quit after 3:16 when the wolf knight was still at 50% health).

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: :57 (quickest fight was :53, longest fight was :59)


    eOWLBEAR (L25 whatever):

    Time to kill wolf knight: 4:31 (I only ran this once. It could be a crazy outlier, but I doubt it would ever get close to 2:00)

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: :37 (quickest fight was :35, longest was :39)


    For the heck of it I ran Rovegar through Murder by Night once to see how long it could take him to kill the knight. I got interrupted before I could run one where he was killed by the knight.


    ROVEGAR (L20 fighter/L1 LD):

    Time to kill wolf knight: 3:23


    The Owlbear is by far the least able to take damage despite having 300 more HPs than Sadiele. It is a serious mana sponge in one-on-one fights like this. I went through almost 20 heal scrolls keeping it alive, plus 500 SPs of CLW, 1 lay on hands, and healing spring. The other hires only needed healing spring and CLW to stay alive while fighting the wolf knight.


    Based on this information, plus what I saw in eGH, I find it hard to believe the eOwlbear has 200PRR. I suppose it is possible that it has a really high PRR and the AC is incredibly low so even though it has high DR, it gets hit a lot more than the fighter hires. Regardless, it really should survive longer than the panther does in a fight like this.
    wow, nice~~ well at least here you have prove all our doubt, i thank you for this act of justice!
    Last edited by burningwind; 05-26-2013 at 01:28 AM.

  5. #25
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post

    Second, it shows that there is either an intentional disconnect between the owlbear's AC and PRR or things are not WAI.

    Frankly, I'm not concerned that the creatures don't perform on par with the NPC. But, it is reasonable to expect that a L25 creature should perform better than a L20 creature.

    So, it appears that the owlbear is not yet WAI (what I think is the probable issue).

    This is what I am beginning to suspect as well.

  6. #26
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Default Updated data

    Got some more data for my Murder by Night test. I ran each scenario three times unless otherwise indicated. Added data for Owlbear and Rovegar hirelings. Added data for artificer dog L25.


    SADIELE (L20 fighter/L2 LD):

    Average time to kill wolf knight: 1:35. (fastest time was 1:23, slowest was 2:14).

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: 1:53 if allowed to drink pots. (I ran it once where I put her on passive and she only lasted 1:17)


    PANTHER (L20 fighter):

    Average time to kill wolf knight: ESTIMATED 6:32 (I quit after 3:16 when the wolf knight was still at 50% health).

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: :57 (quickest fight was :53, longest fight was :59)



    eOWLBEAR (L25 whatever):

    Average time to kill wolf knight: 4:23 (Fastest time was 4:12, slowest was 4:31)

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: :37 (quickest fight was :35, longest was :39)



    ROVEGAR (L20 fighter/L1 LD):

    Average time to kill wolf knight: 3:50 (fastest time was 3:23, slowest was 4:51)

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: : 1:12 (quickest fight was :59, longest was 1:21. When put on passive so he couldn't chug potions the average time was :52)



    Artificer Dog (L25): (S41 D30 C41 HP 1043 AC 67 FORT 100%)

    Average time to kill wolf knight: ESTIMATED to be 24:00 (gave up after 5:36 with wolf knight at 75% health)

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: : :25
    Last edited by Postumus; 05-26-2013 at 04:12 AM.

  7. #27
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Default Owlbear should be at least as good as Sadiele

    Based on the meager data I have gathered, and from what I have experienced in eGH, I really think the Owlbear needs to be beefed up to be at least as effective as the L23 (fighter 20, LD3) hireling Sadiele. Both in the damage output and in the amount of punishment it can absorb.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    My first impression is that the owlbear is being maligned much worse than it deserves to be. Any hireling that can hold its own in epic GH with no healing or babysitting from me other than healing spring and the occasional stun when jumped by 5 or more giants is a pretty nice hireling. That it is a permanent gold seal hireling with unlimited summons and looks very cool (IMO) makes it a great item. I still wish it had an AoE that I didn't have to activate (cleave, great cleave) but if I didn't have the panther already I would LOVE the owlbear.


    Overall I not am super excited about it, but I am not disappointed by it so far. I really like being able to summon both at the same time.
    Thank you for your time and effort. Posts like this are what I'm looking for to make my decision. I like perm hirelings and I'm looking for a good excuse to buy them... or at least a reassurance that they aren't a total loss.

  9. #29
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Got some more data for my Murder by Night test. I ran each scenario three times unless otherwise indicated. Added data for Owlbear and Rovegar hirelings. Added data for artificer dog L25.

    eOWLBEAR (L25 whatever):

    Average time to kill wolf knight: 4:23 (Fastest time was 4:12, slowest was 4:31)

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: :37 (quickest fight was :35, longest was :39)


    Artificer Dog (L25): (S41 D30 C41 HP 1043 AC 67 FORT 100%)

    Average time to kill wolf knight: ESTIMATED to be 24:00 (gave up after 5:36 with wolf knight at 75% health)

    Average time to get killed by wolf knight: : :25
    what weapon are your dog using atm? my kill the cr 31 knight in 2 min 37 second.. as for epic owlbear my fastst result are over 5 minute..
    Last edited by burningwind; 05-26-2013 at 11:25 AM.

  10. #30
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    what weapon are your dog using atm? my kill the cr 31 knight in 2 min 37 second.. as for epic owlbear my fastst result are over 5 minute..
    I mentioned somewhere that differences between otherwise similar creatures/NPCs/classes would be due to gear/feats/etc. Here we see that with respect to the artificer pet.

    We also see potential differences in actual use that might not be wholly obvious. Did either of you manually instruct the owlbear on its attacks? Did you spam the cleave/great cleave attacks (for example)? The assumption is that you just set the creature to attack the mob until it died. But, did you do that or set it to act on its own (which might result in it pausing attacks or returning to you from time to time instead of sticking to the melee).

    Again, the full parameter/methodology is important.

  11. #31
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I mentioned somewhere that differences between otherwise similar creatures/NPCs/classes would be due to gear/feats/etc. Here we see that with respect to the artificer pet.

    We also see potential differences in actual use that might not be wholly obvious. Did either of you manually instruct the owlbear on its attacks? Did you spam the cleave/great cleave attacks (for example)? The assumption is that you just set the creature to attack the mob until it died. But, did you do that or set it to act on its own (which might result in it pausing attacks or returning to you from time to time instead of sticking to the melee).

    Again, the full parameter/methodology is important.
    most likely it is because feat, druid ed and gears.. artificer's dog have same stats as druid's dog.. the enhancement are a tiny bit different, but mostly the same..(most of the druid pet special feature are bugged.. so they are about the same atm)

    p.s. both pet are fighter, and i have compare them before. they should be the same.. atleast their stats sheet suggest so.

  12. #32
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    most likely it is because feat, druid ed and gears.. artificer's dog have same stats as druid's dog.. the enhancement are a tiny bit different, but mostly the same..(most of the druid pet special feature are bugged.. so they are about the same atm)

    p.s. both pet are fighter, and i have compare them before. they should be the same.. atleast their stats sheet suggest so.
    But, this has been my point throughout this discussion -- just because their stat sheets look similar that doesn't make them the same. The different results either show that they are not the same or the different results show that the two of you testing them are not setting them to do the same thing.

    If two things that stat sheets suggest are the same are, in fact, different then what does that say about the other tests you've been doing? To me it says what I've already observed -- your testing is meaningless because you are not really comparing like things.

    Note also that there are probably subtle differences in pets that don't show on the stat sheets and that are explained by the equipment and feats. Does the wolf attack faster, have higher double-strike, have greater base damage, etc. It could well be that the difference is within acceptable limits because the two are not really the same in spite of appearances.

  13. #33
    Community Member DynaTheCat's Avatar
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    I think the reason people are getting different Owl bear results is the level of the quest.

    If you take the epic hire to a lower level, the hire might scale improperly.

    I.E. Lower levels will reduce the epic hire's stats.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    One thing maybe worth looking at....

    The armor system changed as did the way in which hits were calculated and mitigated. Maybe the panther has some effects that prevent it from being hit at all. For example, is it blurry, does it have dodge, etc.

    We know that the secret now to avoid damage is a combination of AC/PRR/incorporeality/dodge/blur. Even with equivalent AC and PRR the panther would take less damage if it was blurry/ghostly/dodging and the owlbear wasn't.

    Maybe everything IS WAI but the developers just didn't anticipate very well or take the whole range of effects into account. We already know that they don't really understand the game from a player's POV.
    Based on my testing here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ted-PRR-Bugged), I don't think the owlbear has any significant defense (at least on EE BoB) aside from DR 15. He was not missed at a significant rate in my video capture. Though the sample is too small to be certain that his AC doesn't matter. His PRR does not work. He does not have blur or better - as I can cast blur on him from an arcane and he gains the buff.

  15. #35
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Based on my testing here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ted-PRR-Bugged), I don't think the owlbear has any significant defense (at least on EE BoB) aside from DR 15. He was not missed at a significant rate in my video capture. Though the sample is too small to be certain that his AC doesn't matter. His PRR does not work. He does not have blur or better - as I can cast blur on him from an arcane and he gains the buff.
    Kudos. This is the sort of testing that produces meaningful information.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdinus7 View Post
    Based on my testing here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ted-PRR-Bugged), I don't think the owlbear has any significant defense (at least on EE BoB) aside from DR 15. He was not missed at a significant rate in my video capture. Though the sample is too small to be certain that his AC doesn't matter. His PRR does not work. He does not have blur or better - as I can cast blur on him from an arcane and he gains the buff.
    IT could use some testing but I've noticed that the owlbear's saves seem to be junk.

    Did rusted blades on normal and he was getting paralyzed by the matron's poison constantly, the panther had the poison icon on it's head and never got paralyzed once.

    In an EH Cabal his fire absorption was working (yellow numbers) but he never made a save and died in less than a second to a fire trap near the beginning.

  17. #37
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DynaTheCat View Post
    I think the reason people are getting different Owl bear results is the level of the quest.

    If you take the epic hire to a lower level, the hire might scale improperly.

    I.E. Lower levels will reduce the epic hire's stats.

    I don't think that is happening since the crit range and average damage for the Owlbear in elite Murder by Night and eGH explorer area is very similar.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    I'm not comparing the panther and owlbear directly... I'm comparing how they perform in level appropriate content.

    The Panther does great in Kings Forest.... and the Owlbear should do the same in Gianthold.

    We are talking about how they do in level appropriate content. The OwlBear is a level 25 EPIC hireling... you should not have to compare it to a HEROIC level 20 panther.
    Well said.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltarrin View Post
    I'm beginning to think that Tolero (bless her heart for consenting to allow herself to be thrown to the wolves that are us) told us the list of things the Owlbear WILL have just as soon as they finish programming it. It seems clear at this point that they rushed the entire preorder package out the door to meet unreasonable management deadlines so they programmed in the bare (hah!) minimum functionality to make the Owlbear work and are likely going to get it fully functional in a patch or hot fix.
    I'd be fine if they would post something about the Owlbear not being complete or finished.

    The way it was posted by Toero, it seemed to state the Owlbear's "current" stats.
    Dorian

  20. #40
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krelar View Post
    IT could use some testing but I've noticed that the owlbear's saves seem to be junk.

    Did rusted blades on normal and he was getting paralyzed by the matron's poison constantly, the panther had the poison icon on it's head and never got paralyzed once.

    In an EH Cabal his fire absorption was working (yellow numbers) but he never made a save and died in less than a second to a fire trap near the beginning.
    Yes, I noticed the Owlbear's saves were junk as well. Fighting giants, it was constantly getting knocked down (not sure if it was from command or the boulder toss). The other hireling was doing fine.

    I just don't want to bombard Turbine with everything that sucks with the Owlbear (defense, dps, saves, etc). lol... what does it do well? anyone?

    I think the best bet is to just focus on getting PRR fixed and see how it does after that. 200 PRR would be 56.29% less physical damage. It might be useful after that gets fixed.
    Dorian

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