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  1. #1
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Default owlbear vs panther



    ok.. dev claim that the owlbear are so much better then they really are.. and some people on forum claim that the level 17 owlbear deal more damage then the panther. so i made this test..

    result:
    panther slay 10 enemy and lose 94 hp.
    level 17 owlbear slay 4 enemy and lose 432 hp.
    level 25 owlbear slay 6 enemy and lose 180 hp.

    p.s. some people may claim that the owlbear take more damage because they are tank, which generate more agro. well this isn't true. if they do generate more agro then the panther shouldn't be getting hit at all, and the level 17 owl bear should not be closed to death, as the epic level 25 version of the owlbear surely would get all the agro.



    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ok, for this next test i grab a fighter hire slash~~ a level 19 fighter normal seal hireling.. and here are the result



    p.s. it seem the owlbear do have some ability to pull agro.. with a true dps in team.. (why is that level 19 fighter hireling doing way more dps then panther and epic level 25 owlbear?) the panther didn't get much kill.. the owlbear often block it's way.. but in theory their dps are not far away. so final result is about this:

    dps: level 19 fighter hireling slash > panther = epic 25 owlbear > 17 owlbear
    tank: pather > level 19 fighter hireling slash > epic 25 owlbear > 17 owlbear
    ai: level 19 fighter hireling slash > panther = epic 25 owlbear = 17 owlbear



    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ill do the same test again to form a conclusion



    p.s. well.. some how owlbear keep getting teleport to the front and block off all other hire...so the level 17 owlbear die not long after enter.. anywayz here is the result

    final result:
    dps: level 19 fighter hireling slash > epic 25 owlbear > panther > 17 owlbear
    tank: pather > level 19 fighter hireling slash > epic 25 owlbear > 17 owlbear
    ai: level 19 fighter hireling slash > panther = epic 25 owlbear = 17 owlbear

    p.s. it seem panther is almost as good as a normal level 19 fighter hireling.. if you ignore the damage that is...
    Last edited by burningwind; 05-25-2013 at 07:47 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Now for further testing~~ i take all these hire to a simple level 15 quest "in the flesh" normal, clear the first two room(6 mob) and here are the final result

    Owlbear level 25

    result: 899/1038 hp left
    HP lost: 139

    Owlbear level 17

    result: 61/561 hp left
    HP lost: 500

    Panther level 20

    result: 592/638 hp left
    HP lost: 46

    Normal hireling level 19- Slash

    result: 571/651 hp left
    HP lost: 80


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Final result

    Tank Ability
    Panther > level 19 hire slash > level 25 "epic" Owlbear > level 17 Owlbear


    DPS Ability
    level 19 hire slash > level 25 "epic" Owlbear > Panther > level 17 Owlbear


    Attack Speed
    level 19 hire slash > Panther = level 25 "epic" Owlbear = level 17 Owlbear

    p.s. i hope this is enough to proof something.. infact both panther and the owlbear need some love.. last time when they buff all hireling panther were left out.. so it is bit low on dps now
    Last edited by burningwind; 05-25-2013 at 07:48 PM.

  3. #3
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting this. I've had similar results... but my Wolf Companion beat them all for kills/dps.

    If the Owlbear tank could actually take some damage... with PRR/DR... maybe it would be worth using. But in my opinion, its not worth calling.

    We need some people to test the Owlbears supposedly 200 PRR.
    Dorian

  4. #4
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    Thanks for posting this. I've had similar results... but my Wolf Companion beat them all for kills/dps.

    If the Owlbear tank could actually take some damage... with PRR/DR... maybe it would be worth using. But in my opinion, its not worth calling.

    We need some people to test the Owlbears supposedly 200 PRR.
    i doubt their prr work.. please check the second post for detail.. it turns out even a level normal fighter hireling are way better then these owlbear..

  5. #5
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    Now for further testing~~ i take all these hire to a simple level 15 quest "in the flesh" normal, clear the first two room(6 mob) and here are the final result
    Good stuff.

    I spent the last 30 minutes running around Epic GH with both the panther and epic owlbear active and basically let them beat up on giants while I watched.

    Damage Output:

    It's apparent the owlbear does a LOT more damage than the panther. Like 80%-100% more damage per swing. The owlbear frequently crits in the 250s while the panther is critting in the 120s (with another 20-30 from bane).

    On stunned giants the panther was critting in the low 250s, but the owlbear was hitting almost four hundred. Lots of 370-380s, a couple of 390s. Highest hit I witnessed was a blow for -388 -88. Not sure what the other -88 came from as it seemed untyped and those combat logs make my head spin.


    Defense/Damage Intake

    Need more trials with this, but at first glance they appear to take damage at roughly the same rate. Since the owlbear has 400 more HPs, you'd think it would easily outlast the panther, but the two times they ran into a patch of 6 or more giants, the owlbear was the first to die. Not conclusive, but interesting.


    Conclusion:

    My first impression is that the owlbear is being maligned much worse than it deserves to be. Any hireling that can hold its own in epic GH with no healing or babysitting from me other than healing spring and the occasional stun when jumped by 5 or more giants is a pretty nice hireling. That it is a permanent gold seal hireling with unlimited summons and looks very cool (IMO) makes it a great item. I still wish it had an AoE that I didn't have to activate (cleave, great cleave) but if I didn't have the panther already I would LOVE the owlbear.


    Overall I not am super excited about it, but I am not disappointed by it so far. I really like being able to summon both at the same time.

  6. #6
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Good stuff.

    I spent the last 30 minutes running around Epic GH with both the panther and epic owlbear active and basically let them beat up on giants while I watched.

    Damage Output:

    It's apparent the owlbear does a LOT more damage than the panther. Like 80%-100% more damage per swing. The owlbear frequently crits in the 250s while the panther is critting in the 120s (with another 20-30 from bane).

    On stunned giants the panther was critting in the low 250s, but the owlbear was hitting almost four hundred. Lots of 370-380s, a couple of 390s. Highest hit I witnessed was a blow for -388 -88. Not sure what the other -88 came from as it seemed untyped and those combat logs make my head spin.


    Defense/Damage Intake

    Need more trials with this, but at first glance they appear to take damage at roughly the same rate. Since the owlbear has 400 more HPs, you'd think it would easily outlast the panther, but the two times they ran into a patch of 6 or more giants, the owlbear was the first to die. Not conclusive, but interesting.


    Conclusion:

    My first impression is that the owlbear is being maligned much worse than it deserves to be. Any hireling that can hold its own in epic GH with no healing or babysitting from me other than healing spring and the occasional stun when jumped by 5 or more giants is a pretty nice hireling. That it is a permanent gold seal hireling with unlimited summons and looks very cool (IMO) makes it a great item. I still wish it had an AoE that I didn't have to activate (cleave, great cleave) but if I didn't have the panther already I would LOVE the owlbear.


    Overall I not am super excited about it, but I am not disappointed by it so far. I really like being able to summon both at the same time.
    very close to my result as well.. but hey.. if you have time.. grab a level 19 or 20 fighter hire and take him to gh.. you will notice that the 19~20 hire deal way more damage then any of the gold seal hireling.

    also owlbear is epic level 25.. and panther is level 20....thats 5 level of difference..

  7. #7
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Default Owl Bear PRR

    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    i doubt their prr work.. please check the second post for detail.. it turns out even a level normal fighter hireling are way better then these owlbear..

    I let two Stormsworn Earthcallers beat on the owlbear for a good ten minutes and watched the numbers scroll. The hits averaged high 70s - low 80s per hit, with the lowest number I recorded at 72 and the highest at 93 (IIRC). The owlbear seemed to get knocked down a lot, but with healing spring on it they weren't able to kill it. I finally dispatched one of the Earthcallers and let the owlbear kill the other one (the giants kept healing each other). It finally did so with a crit for -253 -56. I'm still not sure what the second number is from. I think someone mentioned bloodletting? That would make sense.


    Intimidate seems to work well so far (at least in the explorer area) but even though cleave and great cleave went off, it seemed to only affect one of the giants at a time even though both were right on top of the owlbear. I was never able to get a trip to go off and trying to use it made the owlbear seem unresponsive and stop fighting the giant.

  8. #8
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    very close to my result as well.. but hey.. if you have time.. grab a level 19 or 20 fighter hire and take him to gh.. you will notice that the 19~20 hire deal way more damage then any of the gold seal hireling.

    also owlbear is epic level 25.. and panther is level 20....thats 5 level of difference..
    I'll do that.


    I know the owlbear is 5 levels higher than the panther, so I expected more HPs (which it has) and for it to do more damage (which it does). It's odd that it seems to take damage at the same rate as the panther, that I would not expect. But I have to let the panther act as a solo punching bag a bit and compare.

  9. #9
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    I'm not comparing the panther and owlbear directly... I'm comparing how they perform in level appropriate content.

    The Panther does great in Kings Forest.... and the Owlbear should do the same in Gianthold.

    We are talking about how they do in level appropriate content. The OwlBear is a level 25 EPIC hireling... you should not have to compare it to a HEROIC level 20 panther.
    Dorian

  10. #10
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    It's odd that it seems to take damage at the same rate as the panther, that I would not expect. But I have to let the panther act as a solo punching bag a bit and compare.
    It supposedly has 200 PRR... this is the one thing that I have been trying to test.

    I call total BS on this statement. I wish I knew how to prove that it was not WAI.
    Dorian

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    I'm beginning to think that Tolero (bless her heart for consenting to allow herself to be thrown to the wolves that are us) told us the list of things the Owlbear WILL have just as soon as they finish programming it. It seems clear at this point that they rushed the entire preorder package out the door to meet unreasonable management deadlines so they programmed in the bare (hah!) minimum functionality to make the Owlbear work and are likely going to get it fully functional in a patch or hot fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltarrin View Post
    I'm beginning to think that Tolero (bless her heart for consenting to allow herself to be thrown to the wolves that are us) told us the list of things the Owlbear WILL have just as soon as they finish programming it. It seems clear at this point that they rushed the entire preorder package out the door to meet unreasonable management deadlines so they programmed in the bare (hah!) minimum functionality to make the Owlbear work and are likely going to get it fully functional in a patch or hot fix.
    If I remember correctly, the same thing basically happened with the Onyx Panther. It was a decent or even slightly better than usual hireling when it was first released. That was mainly because the AI was really good for the Panther when it was released. But it wasn't until a patch or the release of MOTU that the additional goodies were actually given to the Panther, such as Manslayer and the Bane damage. I might be misremembering this, but I tend to remember the Panther being improved with additional stuff after a period of time.

  13. #13
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    I'm not comparing the panther and owlbear directly... I'm comparing how they perform in level appropriate content.

    The Panther does great in Kings Forest.... and the Owlbear should do the same in Gianthold.

    We are talking about how they do in level appropriate content. The OwlBear is a level 25 EPIC hireling... you should not have to compare it to a HEROIC level 20 panther.

    From my perspective the owlbear is holding up just fine in the eGH explorer areas so far.

  14. #14
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    dev claim that the owlbear are so much better then they really are.. and some people on forum claim that the level 17 owlbear deal more damage then the panther. so i made this test..
    Hard to judge the value of your testing when you don't provide the parameters -- where did you test, against what mobs, etc.

    It does appear that you did nothing to try to keep the hirelings alive -- expecting them to provide their own healing. In my case I ran the owlbear, panther and a favored soul all at the same time as I ran quickly through six quests. I did not pick or choose random encounters or limit myself to only a single encounter area with unreported mob types.

    Rather, I took a look as I normally do at the ending XP report on each of the quests and I played them with the typical healing of party members that I would normally expect.

    My conclusion is that these "tests" only serve to reinforce the bias of the tester since no information on the control or methodology is given -- only the results.

    I find the testing done by others in the thread to be more persuasive since they provide enough information for posters to replicate their methods if they are doubtful of the results.

    Regarding the hireling Slash, it might be worth observing that they will drink potions when necessary to maintain health. Neither the panther nor the owlbears will do this.

    Lastly, try running each in "level appropriate" content. Seems sort of silly since it then is impractical to compare directly as hOwlbear is L17, panther is L20 and eOwlbear is L25. Try running hOwlbear and panther together in ~L18 content, or eOwlbear and panther together in ~L22 content.

  15. #15
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Hard to judge the value of your testing when you don't provide the parameters -- where did you test, against what mobs, etc.
    they were the same quest, same amount of mob. i doubt parameters matter much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    It does appear that you did nothing to try to keep the hirelings alive -- expecting them to provide their own healing. In my case I ran the owlbear, panther and a favored soul all at the same time as I ran quickly through six quests. I did not pick or choose random encounters or limit myself to only a single encounter area with unreported mob types.
    score board will only shown which hireling get how many last hit, that is completely luck. while letting them solo all they can take shows their ability to survive and dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    My conclusion is that these "tests" only serve to reinforce the bias of the tester since no information on the control or methodology is given -- only the results.
    if you enjoy repeating the samething millions of time then be my guest.. i don't have that kind of time.. would rather play a different game. i believe it is enough to take things into consideration~~ after all am not dev, and this is a fair test.


    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I find the testing done by others in the thread to be more persuasive since they provide enough information for posters to replicate their methods if they are doubtful of the results.
    perhaps, find what you please, my method is simple and clear, shouldn't be any doubt in my point of view. they are testing against same amount, same type of monster. the screenshot are taken at exact location for all end result. i believe that means something..

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Regarding the hireling Slash, it might be worth observing that they will drink potions when necessary to maintain health. Neither the panther nor the owlbears will do this.
    potion is part of hireling ability, if potion make hireling stronger then perhaps they should give owlbear and panther some potion to drink each time they were summoned.

    p.s. none of the hireling will drink potion until their health are low, in my test i never get slash to the point that he drink any potion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Lastly, try running each in "level appropriate" content. Seems sort of silly since it then is impractical to compare directly as hOwlbear is L17, panther is L20 and eOwlbear is L25. Try running hOwlbear and panther together in ~L18 content, or eOwlbear and panther together in ~L22 content
    i do not see any need for that, they are all fighter hire. if one or more of them are ranged, specllcaster, it might require more detail testing, but for fighter hire it is very simple matter of strength and survivability. the monster i select are simply test stone use as a standard, they were level 15~~ fit to the lowest hireling i have been used in this test.

  16. #16
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    The reason you need to provide parameters is so that others can test themselves. This is the way that we verify results.

    For example, say I'm a scientist and I "discover" that a specific bodily structure is found in "all" test subjects with a particular habit or characteristic. I now claim that this is the reason for that habit or characteristic thus explaining one more mystery of the universe.

    But, my claim is meaningless if no other scientist can replicate my study. So, I have to provide the parameters under which I conducted my test. Doing so lets them point out the mistakes I've made and how the conclusions I've drawn were driven by some predetermined desire for results.

    I recently read that eating massive amounts of candy had no impact on obesity. The study was done by the candy industry.

    Your demeanor in all the threads on this subject indicate that you are already prejudiced against the owlbears. This seems to derive from an expectation that, after spending $40, you should have gotten something superlative.

    Never mind that the purchase involves other things than just the owlbear or that your expectations might be inappropriate. The nature of your "testing" simply indicates that you are out to prove a predetermined point, thus it is probable that the "proof" is manufactured to support your perspective.

    You avoid this by being transparent in how you conduct your test, where you conduct your test, reports about the ways in which you tested, etc.

    The points others have made about the hires you select fall into this same category. Are they random hires or are they ones that you know are especially strong -- maybe even OP?

    You should be credited for starting a discussion on a potential bug. But, the degree to which you have gone goes far beyond questioning whether the owlbears are WAI.

    From my perspective they are working just fine for me in quests as integrated parts of the party. To me they seem to be fine. They don't die when sneezed at, they kill stuff (but not nearly as much as I do), they get and hold aggro (but not as much as my flame turret), etc.

    What more should I be expecting from them? That they finish the quest for me so that I can pike at the entrance and go afk until I get the 15K XP?

    Knowing what you are doing to test these creatures and the expectations you have when testing are crucial if you want us to view your tests as legitimate.

  17. #17
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    The reason you need to provide parameters is so that others can test themselves. This is the way that we verify results.
    That's the problem. How do we test 200 PRR and have combat logs to backup our results? I'm all ears if you have a suggestion. (even the people that like the current owlbear agree that PRR is NOT working)

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    From my perspective they are working just fine for me in quests as integrated parts of the party. To me they seem to be fine. They don't die when sneezed at, they kill stuff (but not nearly as much as I do), they get and hold aggro (but not as much as my flame turret), etc.
    You need to state that your LEVEL 17 HEROIC Owlbear is working fine for you. And let people know you have not testing the EPIC LEVEL 25 Owlbear.

    Please lets not make this a back and forth attack on players. I'm glad others are taking notice and trying to test out the Owlbear. (even if it goes against my opinion)
    Dorian

  18. #18
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    The reason you need to provide parameters is so that others can test themselves. This is the way that we verify results.

    For example, say I'm a scientist and I "discover" that a specific bodily structure is found in "all" test subjects with a particular habit or characteristic. I now claim that this is the reason for that habit or characteristic thus explaining one more mystery of the universe.

    But, my claim is meaningless if no other scientist can replicate my study. So, I have to provide the parameters under which I conducted my test. Doing so lets them point out the mistakes I've made and how the conclusions I've drawn were driven by some predetermined desire for results.

    I recently read that eating massive amounts of candy had no impact on obesity. The study was done by the candy industry.

    Your demeanor in all the threads on this subject indicate that you are already prejudiced against the owlbears. This seems to derive from an expectation that, after spending $40, you should have gotten something superlative.

    Never mind that the purchase involves other things than just the owlbear or that your expectations might be inappropriate. The nature of your "testing" simply indicates that you are out to prove a predetermined point, thus it is probable that the "proof" is manufactured to support your perspective.

    You avoid this by being transparent in how you conduct your test, where you conduct your test, reports about the ways in which you tested, etc.

    The points others have made about the hires you select fall into this same category. Are they random hires or are they ones that you know are especially strong -- maybe even OP?

    You should be credited for starting a discussion on a potential bug. But, the degree to which you have gone goes far beyond questioning whether the owlbears are WAI.

    From my perspective they are working just fine for me in quests as integrated parts of the party. To me they seem to be fine. They don't die when sneezed at, they kill stuff (but not nearly as much as I do), they get and hold aggro (but not as much as my flame turret), etc.

    What more should I be expecting from them? That they finish the quest for me so that I can pike at the entrance and go afk until I get the 15K XP?

    Knowing what you are doing to test these creatures and the expectations you have when testing are crucial if you want us to view your tests as legitimate.
    this is a game, and it is program with computer language. it is not science where you are proven some new found theory. in computer language unless there are bug or error with the program the result can be demonstrate with simple testing.

    if any hireling have ability such as manslayer and their target being humanoid it might have impact in this case. but as we all know neither of the hire in this test have similar ability, the target i choose - the wood woad, have no special resistance other then plant immunity and electricity resist, which will not affect testing result.

    p.s. i don't know why you keep attacking, and complain.. it seem you have nothing better to do. if you want to prove my test result are invalid then proof it with real data. if you fail to do so it will all talking.. oh also your way of testing make no sense at all.. as any hire above 15 level can do epic gianthold with a sufficient healer on their back. and gianthold are filled with various type of giant, each have their own ability. if you are testing them against different target, you cannot form a result and claim to be correct without a standard testing stone. enough have been said, this will be the last time i waste my time reply your post, you may say whatever you wish. but before you back up your statement with fact and data, it hold no meaning in any of the way.

  19. #19
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    That's the problem. How do we test 200 PRR and have combat logs to backup our results? I'm all ears if you have a suggestion. (even the people that like the current owlbear agree that PRR is NOT working)

    You need to state that your LEVEL 17 HEROIC Owlbear is working fine for you. And let people know you have not testing the EPIC LEVEL 25 Owlbear.

    Please lets not make this a back and forth attack on players. I'm glad others are taking notice and trying to test out the Owlbear. (even if it goes against my opinion)
    First, I'm not convinced that PRR isn't working -- only that it does not appear to be. Since there's no real easy way to compare I'd suggest letting a mob hit your character a few times when it has no AC or PRR and noting the damage numbers. Next, let the mob hit the owlbear and note the damage numbers.

    If damage is not changing then PRR isn't functioning.

    Second, I clearly stated that I'd not yet run the eOwlbear. Not my problem and I fail to see how continuing a discussion requires its repeated mentioning. Nevertheless, it has been mentioned multiple times since my first post regarding these creatures.

    Lastly, the only personal attack has come from elsewhere. Pointing out the failures in your methodology is not an attack on you but on how you've done things. You did not seem to understand why providing parameters and methods was important. You even stated as much. If that reads to you like a personal attack they you need to toughen up.

    The simple fact is that you've tested by standing by and watching the creatures perform in an environment that nobody else knows about. Thus you are piking while the creatures fight and we don't have any information about how or where you tested so nobody can replicate.

    I ran 6 quests fully engaged and with the hires set to do their own thing as their AI enabled them. I'm not seeing the problem you are seeing. That isn't personal. It is just a comment on methodology and testing process.

  20. #20
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    this is a game, and it is program with computer language. it is not science where you are proven some new found theory. in computer language unless there are bug or error with the program the result can be demonstrate with simple testing.

    if any hireling have ability such as manslayer and their target being humanoid it might have impact in this case. but as we all know neither of the hire in this test have similar ability, the target i choose - the wood woad, have no special resistance other then plant immunity and electricity resist, which will not affect testing result.

    p.s. i don't know why you keep attacking, and complain.. it seem you have nothing better to do. if you want to prove my test result are invalid then proof it with real data. if you fail to do so it will all talking.. oh also your way of testing make no sense at all.. as any hire above 15 level can do epic gianthold with a sufficient healer on their back. and gianthold are filled with various type of giant, each have their own ability. if you are testing them against different target, you cannot form a result and claim to be correct without a standard testing stone. enough have been said, this will be the last time i waste my time reply your post, you may say whatever you wish. but before you back up your statement with fact and data, it hold no meaning in any of the way.
    Computer programs operate in predictable ways. If we both enter the same quest with the same hires and run from start to finish we will have similar results -- not identical, similar.

    The wood woad is just one encounter. Standing on the sidelines is not a realistic way of questing. People don't pike quests. If we don't quest that way then why do we test that way? It invalidates the testing.

    Second, if the purpose is to point out differences in hires then that form of test works. But, it has no long-term value because it does not cover the full range of encounters. It does not adjust for differences in mob types or take into account differences in equipment.

    For example, we know that two L1 fighters are not going to be equal if one is equipped with a normal sword and the other with a +2 sword. Even with the same STR the one with the +2 sword is going to do more damage and hit more often.

    Two hires will have similar differences. A L20 hire may have more STR, better gear, etc than the L25 creature. It might be gaining added damage from weapon base damage or elemental/bane/alignment/etc. modifiers. So, one off tests don't really show much.

    Lastly, disagreeing with you and pointing out flaws in how you approach the problem isn't a personal attack. You are doing things that are designed to give you a predicted result and skewing the results as a consequence. Just run a full quest from start to finish where you are not piking and where the hires are just ordinary members of the party. Then compare the results you are getting.

    What I've done is run the creatures this way. And, my experience is that they perform just fine. If they are in fact not WAI then they will become something very special when corrected.

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