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  1. #41
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    And you're ignoring the evidence I have provided that is contrary to your experience. Same server, roughly the same times. Guess cause it's not evidence for your theory it doesn't exist. You're behaving like a politician, and that is one of the worst insults to give a person imo.
    If you say so, I honestly didn't read your post, but if you want to "insult me" go right ahead, I'll let that speak to how believable your anecdotal evidence is versus my anecdotal evidence. Maybe next time I'll take screen shots so I can prove that I didn't spend an entire night WANTING to play but finding very little to do. I'm not out here making this up because I want to paint a false picture of the game I love playing... I legitimately and regularly can not play DDO (unless I solo or one man IP LFM it) BTW this is all too common an experience, to the point where I literally can not play the character's I want to play when I want to play them. I have to play the game based on "whats available" and swap characters. So I feel really bad for newer players sitting at level 10 with their only character with a total wasteland between level 7 Delera's and level 14 GH. But don't worry it doesn't get much better even when you're post 20.

    I'm not sure what motivation you're ascribing to me, for why I would sit and not play DDO on purpose even though I really wanted to level some toons last night. Did I get a different version of the LFM' panel you claim to have been watching that was just chock full of great groups all night? Is it possible that your experience was about getting lucky and opening the LFM panel at the right time, that happens to me too sometimes? If I'm getting unlucky then it's happening an aweful lot of the time. All I will say is that there seem to a mindset of people who want to shout down anyone who suggests that the game has a dwindling player base, especially some people seem to deny that the LFM system is a self strangling mess of exclusions when those can be listed out self evident as undeniable bullet points that clearly and needlessly exclude some players from joining some groups, and in aggregate when the base drops below a certain number, effectively strangle the game with needless exclusions.

    BTW you do know that the daily logins are tracked by a third party website and it's a fact that the player base is getting smaller and less people are playing every week for a long time right?

  2. #42
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    I legitimately and regularly can not play DDO (unless I solo or one man IP LFM it) BTW this is all too common an experience, to the point where I literally can not play the character's I want to play when I want to play them. I have to play the game based on "whats available" and swap characters. So I feel really bad for newer players sitting at level 10 with their only character with a total wasteland between level 7 Delera's and level 14 GH. But don't worry it doesn't get much better even when you're post 20.
    You have to be willing to start lfms you're right if I only waited for others I'd probably be bored, but I check the lfm if there is nothing up I want to run I start a group. I never have a problem filling unless I'm doing a favor farm or a quest that is wildly unpopular (threnal, 3bc, ext)
    I'm not sure what motivation you're ascribing to me, for why I would sit and not play DDO on purpose even though I really wanted to level some toons last night. Did I get a different version of the LFM' panel you claim to have been watching that was just chock full of great groups all night? Is it possible that your experience was about getting lucky and opening the LFM panel at the right time, that happens to me too sometimes? If I'm getting unlucky then it's happening an aweful lot of the time.
    Don't attribute it to luck, that has very little to do with it. I've said how I post my lfms and I don't have problems period.
    All I will say is that there seem to a mindset of people who want to shout down anyone who suggests that the game has a dwindling player base, especially some people seem to deny that the LFM system is a self strangling mess of exclusions when those can be listed out self evident as undeniable bullet points that clearly and needlessly exclude some players from joining some groups, and in aggregate when the base drops below a certain number, effectively strangle the game with needless exclusions.
    The exclusions are better than the alternatives of groups who's playstyles are completely at odds with each other.
    BTW you do know that the daily logins are tracked by a third party website and it's a fact that the player base is getting smaller and less people are playing every week for a long time right?
    It's based on myddo so I find it weak evidence as I have no confidence that it is accurate. That said could the playerbase be dwindling, very likely. However it is not to the point you think it is in my experience at all.

  3. #43
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    You have to be willing to start lfms you're right if I only waited for others I'd probably be bored, but I check the lfm if there is nothing up I want to run I start a group. I never have a problem filling unless I'm doing a favor farm or a quest that is wildly unpopular (threnal, 3bc, ext)

    Don't attribute it to luck, that has very little to do with it. I've said how I post my lfms and I don't have problems period.

    The exclusions are better than the alternatives of groups who's playstyles are completely at odds with each other.

    It's based on myddo so I find it weak evidence as I have no confidence that it is accurate. That said could the playerbase be dwindling, very likely. However it is not to the point you think it is in my experience at all.

    Plenty of others are complaining about the sparse LFM picture so I have to think I'm not an isolated incident. Again I do start LFM's; Sometimes they fill sometimes not. I don't start LFM's for quests I don't know because my experience says that doing so will make me zero friends. Even when I explain that I'm just sacking up and leading because I need the quest and no one else is running it. Now if I put "don't know this quest hold on for the ride" in the description I'm liable to get no joiners. Because "joiners" want to join groups that aren't going to be rocky, and "I don't know this bare with me" is a red flag.

    Lots of people wait for others and when they don't find anything they download NWO. or do something else like watch TV or read about other games (Dragon Crown looks awesome if you like fantasy side scrolling beat em ups, ridiculously artistic and beautiful, made by the same people that did Murimasa).

    The LFM exclusions I am interested in mitigating have nothing to do with player specific exclusions, and are purely impediments that the game puts in our way that could be made better/more stream lined, less arbitrary and less DDOwiki intensive. I thought that I was pretty clear about that. I can't make "Know it" or BYOH LFM's include everyone nor would I want to because those players only want to play with like minded players, however I can lobby for the Devs to not make new players run off to the DDOwiki every time they see an LFM for a quest they don't know about. I can lobby for wider more dynamic level ranges allowed before XP penalties or breaking BB. Teleport to quest entrance option is already half (well maybe 10%) implimented, autoshare with a dialog box (accept yes/no for those of you who don't like the idea of autosharing), better guiding pointers to get you to quests.... things that overcome the natural inertia of: I'm not flagged for that, I don't know where that is, I can't find that quest giver on the map, I wonder if this is the second part of a chain I haven't done yet, damn I'm one level too high for that. and etc. Not that they're likely to listen or anything, but I can try.

    Re: Luck or not... yes finding an LFM quickly involves some luck, there are plenty of luck factors involved, Timing, your characters levels you have available to run stuff, someone else running something you're wanting to run... A Rogue jumping on when you need one, a healer for the raid etc.

    DDO tracker was based on the API not on MyDDO, the relative accuracy can be suspect but constantly declining numbers are constantly declining numbers. With something as simple as logins I don't have trouble accepting them.

    Interestingly I've lead and filled three different full chains of Threnal in the last couple months, it's surprisingly easy to fill. If the XP didn't suck so hard I would run it more than one per new character.

    As for the population you may disagree but I think it's right about at the point where there are players wanting to play, but grouping friction is keeping lots of them from finding LFM's, because that friction requires a critical mass of players to keep the panel populated with LFM's and joiners looking for groups. Otherwise you end up noticing that there's only 3 highlighted quests none of which you can/want/need to do... but there's 6 quests that but for ONE FACTOR (one level over, one flagging quest not completed etc.) you can not join...

    This has been my experience often after I tuck the little ones in and start looking for LFM's it's hit or miss for sure, and some nights there is an LFM I want to join every time I finish a quest (luck) or a good group sticks together all night (also luck). Some nights there's the same 3 unfilled IP quests and it doesn't get better until I give up. Other people have shared having similar experiences so I would submit that despite your positive experience making grouping better would only benefit the game's health. Because at least some of us are bored stairing at an LFM panel that is slim pickings.
    Last edited by Ironclans_evil_twin; 05-26-2013 at 09:25 PM.

  4. #44
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Well once again I ran stuff tonight with no issues, ran vale all night, once again had zero issues finding or filling a group. Here's the thing with some of your suggestions on level range flagging ext. Messing with level range would have large issues from turbines point of view on when people run certain quests to power level. Imagine being able to farm von3 or shadow crypt even later. It'd be a huge boon to tr's and probably decrease xp potion sales so it will never happen. Messing with the power leveling cap won't work either because for the most part, lets use vale for example, the quests are run on elite with the level range of 16-18. Not because a 15 would get a power leveling penalty but because they will likely not be able to put in an adequate contribution compared to others. This completely ignores the issue that running the quest that early is an extremely bad idea with how xp works.

    Flagging I have to say I really don't care about. Maybe it's just me but even when I first started this game I never had a problem with flagging. I looked at the quest log and picked up every quest I found so that I had them and could learn them. If I was unsure about the flagging for something I either asked a guildie or went to the wiki. To me this was just part of learning a new game. I may be weird I don't know but learning all this stuff was and is part of the fun of a new mmo and new content in an mmo.

    With your issue of finding groups or people looking at the lfms. This is not your typical trinity mmo where a group finder can grab a random person who queued tank, one that queued heals, and 3 that queued dps. That kind of system could never work in this game with how it's set up not to use a trinity. This means that the lfm system requires more personal responsibility in how the system will work for you. It means you have to watch it for things you want to run and if they aren't there you have to post one yourself.

    I'll be honest I don't see the problem you are having especially after seeing we are using the same server. Our experiences are completely 100% different.

  5. #45
    Community Member scoobmx's Avatar
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    i know, i know, i haven't been on much, but fear not my friends, soon i will return to revitalize the server
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  6. #46
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  7. #47
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I looked at the quest log and picked up every quest I found so that I had them and could learn them. If I was unsure about the flagging for something I either asked a guildie or went to the wiki. To me this was just part of learning a new game. I may be weird I don't know but learning all this stuff was and is part of the fun of a new mmo and new content in an mmo.
    You probably are weird, but then so am I because this pretty much sums up how I learn most new games these days. When I initially began to learn this game I don't believe I knew about the forums or the wiki but I already had experience from learning things on my own. If I didn't see an LFM up that peaked my interests, I went off and attempted to solo the content that did. I didn't sit there waiting for the perfect group to try to learn. A perfect group is really not the most ideal way to learn anyways as you don't learn how to make due with anything less.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    I'll be honest I don't see the problem you are having especially after seeing we are using the same server. Our experiences are completely 100% different.
    Just because you don't see/experience the problem does not mean it doesn't exist.

    For example:
    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Flagging I have to say I really don't care about. Maybe it's just me but even when I first started this game I never had a problem with flagging.
    Well good for you. But tons of other people have problems with that. Never had half the party drop when one person says "oops, I'm not flagged... *drop*" and two more go "What? This needs flagging? GL BB *drop*"?


    Or this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    You have to be willing to start lfms you're right if I only waited for others I'd probably be bored, but I check the lfm if there is nothing up I want to run I start a group.
    Doesn't that actually say what Ironclans_evil_twin is saying, that there is shortage of LFMs appropriate for your character? Except it's not a problem for you?

  9. #49
    Community Member Jeromio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutoth View Post
    That graph ends on April 27. It would be much more interesting to see what's happened during the last month.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    What?!?!?

    No end-game groups at NINE THIRTY ON A SATURDAY MORNING?


    Doom?
    I don't think it's doom, but comparatively speaking it's significantly less than 1 year ago when I utilized the lfm system extensively. The 5am - 8am EST time used to have quite a bit of activity and now there are much fewer lfms. I can still get into raids at that time, but less frequently. It does seem dead at that time compared to last year.

    I am not suggesting doom and never have, but I also don't deny reality and try and pretend that nothing ever changes for the worse. Some things have gotten better and some thing have gotten worse sincelast year. Trying to argue lfms aren't down is like trying to argue the earth is square. It's so obvious to anyone that was here 1 year ago lfms are down - at least at the times I play.

    I am sure it will improve, but that's how it is today.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    I have lfm up constantly, no one is joining and there are certainly few casters and NO healers
    Well what heroic quest do you NEED one of those for? Not many.

    It should be no problem to fill or near fill a group quickly if you just let whoever wants to join you to join. Well, unless you or your guild have a very bad reputation for some reason (not saying you do, I don't know who you are, but that's one possibility for slow fills).

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    Well once again I ran stuff tonight with no issues, ran vale all night, once again had zero issues finding or filling a group. Here's the thing with some of your suggestions on level range flagging ext. Messing with level range would have large issues from turbines point of view on when people run certain quests to power level. Imagine being able to farm von3 or shadow crypt even later. It'd be a huge boon to tr's and probably decrease xp potion sales so it will never happen. Messing with the power leveling cap won't work either because for the most part, lets use vale for example, the quests are run on elite with the level range of 16-18. Not because a 15 would get a power leveling penalty but because they will likely not be able to put in an adequate contribution compared to others. This completely ignores the issue that running the quest that early is an extremely bad idea with how xp works.

    Flagging I have to say I really don't care about. Maybe it's just me but even when I first started this game I never had a problem with flagging. I looked at the quest log and picked up every quest I found so that I had them and could learn them. If I was unsure about the flagging for something I either asked a guildie or went to the wiki. To me this was just part of learning a new game. I may be weird I don't know but learning all this stuff was and is part of the fun of a new mmo and new content in an mmo.

    With your issue of finding groups or people looking at the lfms. This is not your typical trinity mmo where a group finder can grab a random person who queued tank, one that queued heals, and 3 that queued dps. That kind of system could never work in this game with how it's set up not to use a trinity. This means that the lfm system requires more personal responsibility in how the system will work for you. It means you have to watch it for things you want to run and if they aren't there you have to post one yourself.

    I'll be honest I don't see the problem you are having especially after seeing we are using the same server. Our experiences are completely 100% different.
    You are in a large guild. How many in your party are from your own guild? The game has shifted dramatically in the past 6 months to where you need to join a large guild, be in an active channel, be comfortable solo/short-manning, be in a static group, wait longer between quests or find another hobby.

    I've seen 3 people talking about how easy it is to fill lfms and they are all large guild members such as yourself. Of course it's easy to fill a party if you are in a large guild right now because that is the state of the game at the moment. Many vet players have moved from small guilds and lfm usage to large guilds. It's quite different when you post an lfm and then fill it partially with guildies vs. starting an lfm with 1 or 2 people.

    If you play a few times per week, have casual friends, can't get into a large guild, aren't in a static group and don't participate in any active channels - good luck trying to play this game with other people right now and still complete a reasonable amount of quests. Because LFMs are down and I see groups of 1-2 on the lfm panel for extended periods of time. And I don't think it has anything to do with them being unpopular or disliked. It's the state of the game today and people have to either adjust or find another hobby.
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  13. #53
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    You really need to me to post proof that most people are not leaders?.
    I'm not sure you understand what a "leader" is. A leader is not the person who says "hey, want to run this with me?". Unless of course you consider someone a leader because they were the first one to start walking when the light turns green. Then again, that brings us back to you not being clear on the term leader.

    It takes no real leadership skills to put up an LFM, or to have the star next to your name in 90+% of non-raid quests in the game. Just pick the quest, and then everyone hops in when ready and starts killing stuff.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    You are in a large guild. How many in your party are from your own guild? The game has shifted dramatically in the past 6 months to where you need to join a large guild, be in an active channel, be comfortable solo/short-manning, be in a static group, wait longer between quests or find another hobby.
    It's true that does make grouping much easier.

    I've seen 3 people talking about how easy it is to fill lfms and they are all large guild members such as yourself. Of course it's easy to fill a party if you are in a large guild right now because that is the state of the game at the moment. Many vet players have moved from small guilds and lfm usage to large guilds. It's quite different when you post an lfm and then fill it partially with guildies vs. starting an lfm with 1 or 2 people.
    I assume I'm one of those people you were talking about. Yes, I'm in a larger guild. However, just because of level/play time issues I often don't end up with a guild group. This Saturday in the 3 groups I mentioned being in I think there were 0-1 guildies in each of the groups. They were basically pugs that would have been the same if I was unguilded. Now I did recognize a few of the names as people I've grouped with in the past, so it is possible my reputation as a pugger is decent and that contributes to a quick fill, but, if that unlikely case is true (because we all know I'm a noob) my guild size wouldn't impact that either way.

  15. #55
    Community Member TheLegendOfAra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    You are in a large guild. How many in your party are from your own guild? The game has shifted dramatically in the past 6 months to where you need to join a large guild, be in an active channel, be comfortable solo/short-manning, be in a static group, wait longer between quests or find another hobby.

    I've seen 3 people talking about how easy it is to fill lfms and they are all large guild members such as yourself. Of course it's easy to fill a party if you are in a large guild right now because that is the state of the game at the moment. Many vet players have moved from small guilds and lfm usage to large guilds. It's quite different when you post an lfm and then fill it partially with guildies vs. starting an lfm with 1 or 2 people.

    If you play a few times per week, have casual friends, can't get into a large guild, aren't in a static group and don't participate in any active channels - good luck trying to play this game with other people right now and still complete a reasonable amount of quests. Because LFMs are down and I see groups of 1-2 on the lfm panel for extended periods of time. And I don't think it has anything to do with them being unpopular or disliked. It's the state of the game today and people have to either adjust or find another hobby.
    I'm in a medium sized guild. We're somewhat well known on our server. I am probably more well known in my guild than some of the others because of the frequency with which I run raids, and EE stuff. I'm also a member of 4 end game focused channels on Argo, all of which are used by the best people on the server. I only use the channels for chatting, and raiding most of the time. For regular questing it's pugging mostly. I may start with 1 or two friends from channel, friends list, guild or w.e, but we still pug the rest of the group. and believe it or not, that still counts as pugging.

    Now, all that being said, I rarely run with my guild unless I'm leading a raid. Mainly because of time difference issues, or different level ranges. My guild is pretty much stuck in TR land atm, and I'm focusing mainly on end game. I pug A LOT. More than I should. I never have trouble with the lfm system or grouping. And this isn't a case of, "I have a good reputation, people join". I play with new people every night.
    Here is how I usually set up my lfms:
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    Duel wielding small animals is strictly forbidden
    I just wanted to say this is unreasonable. My HOrc dual wields halflings all the time. They are very effective bludgeoning weapons and make a satisfying screaming sound on hit (well at first, later its just kind of a wet thud, but that's satisfying in its own way too)

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    It's true that does make grouping much easier.



    I assume I'm one of those people you were talking about. Yes, I'm in a larger guild. However, just because of level/play time issues I often don't end up with a guild group. This Saturday in the 3 groups I mentioned being in I think there were 0-1 guildies in each of the groups. They were basically pugs that would have been the same if I was unguilded. Now I did recognize a few of the names as people I've grouped with in the past, so it is possible my reputation as a pugger is decent and that contributes to a quick fill, but, if that unlikely case is true (because we all know I'm a noob) my guild size wouldn't impact that either way.
    I see lfms sitting open all the time. I am not buying the popularity reason because I see less lfms up and the ones I see up are up longer compared to a year ago. I am not doubting you are popular and people want to hit your lfm because you are a very nice person.

    Are you active in channels or a static group? (rhetorical question because I think I already know the answer unless I am mistaking you for someone else) Because your typical casual player is not and are often mocked in those channels. Entire guilds are mocked in those channels.

    The lfm system works great if you are in a large guild, active channel, static group - otherwise not so much. Groups will also fill quicker if it starts with 2-3 people because people realize they could be waiting a while if they hit the lfm with only one person. It makes sense your groups will fill faster - mine will too because I only post an lfm when I have a few people with me and we are just trying to fill up. That is not the case for your typical casual player using the lfm system.

    It's a multi-faceted and complex issue. Many things are contributing - bravery bonus, 10% xp death penalty, desire to zerg, guild system that heavily favors established large guilds vs new ones, age of the game. There are no quick fixes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    I'm in a medium sized guild. We're somewhat well known on our server. I am probably more well known in my guild than some of the others because of the frequency with which I run raids, and EE stuff. I'm also a member of 4 end game focused channels on Argo, all of which are used by the best people on the server. I only use the channels for chatting, and raiding most of the time. For regular questing it's pugging mostly. I may start with 1 or two friends from channel, friends list, guild or w.e, but we still pug the rest of the group. and believe it or not, that still counts as pugging.

    Now, all that being said, I rarely run with my guild unless I'm leading a raid. Mainly because of time difference issues, or different level ranges. My guild is pretty much stuck in TR land atm, and I'm focusing mainly on end game. I pug A LOT. More than I should. I never have trouble with the lfm system or grouping. And this isn't a case of, "I have a good reputation, people join". I play with new people every night.
    Here is how I usually set up my lfms:
    Elite, byoh, IP. Snarky remark

    I get at least 3 other meat bags in every quest.
    Always. And I'm happy with that. I'm not worried if we don't get more, but I usually get the last 2 people before I finish the quest anyways.
    I agree it is much easier to fill the lfm when you start with 1-2 other people. This is not as easy for your typical casual player that runs with other casual people.
    CC Casting Druid: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...C-Summer-Build
    Shiradi Wiz Plan for 1st Lifers: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...r-First-Lifers
    U25 Patch 1 Dex Halfling Assassin Build: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-Assassin-1-0
    Warlock DC Caster: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ld-Blast-Build

    Several characters on Sarlona all starting with "Rand" in the Guild "Guardians of House Cannith". My main four characters are Randowl (18 rogue 2 artificer mechanic - hope to go back to DC casting some day), Randslar (Bard 14 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 2 Swashbuckler), Randek (Druid CC Caster 17/Fvs 3) and Randomall (Rogue 20 assassin).

  19. #59
    Community Member Ivan_Milic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post

    I've seen 3 people talking about how easy it is to fill lfms and they are all large guild members such as yourself. Of course it's easy to fill a party if you are in a large guild right now because that is the state of the game at the moment. Many vet players have moved from small guilds and lfm usage to large guilds. It's quite different when you post an lfm and then fill it partially with guildies vs. starting an lfm with 1 or 2 people.

    If you play a few times per week, have casual friends, can't get into a large guild, aren't in a static group and don't participate in any active channels - good luck trying to play this game with other people right now and still complete a reasonable amount of quests. Because LFMs are down and I see groups of 1-2 on the lfm panel for extended periods of time. And I don't think it has anything to do with them being unpopular or disliked. It's the state of the game today and people have to either adjust or find another hobby.
    For me it is easy to fill lfms, I dont join no channels, my guild has 12 people in it(4-5 play daily, I rarely group with them since I tr a lot), all playing at different time than me because Im from Europe and they are Americans, dont have any friends grouping, no static group.

  20. #60
    Community Member Ryiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slarden View Post
    It's a multi-faceted and complex issue. Many things are contributing - bravery bonus, 10% xp death penalty, desire to zerg, guild system that heavily favors established large guilds vs new ones, age of the game. There are no quick fixes.
    The time it takes for a player to fix their problem with grouping is dependent on them. For starters try using voice chat versus typing. I started off typing but eventually got a microphone and the courage to use it regularly. My experience has been that it results in more in-depth conversations and thus a much better chance of getting into a decent guild and channel(s). It also more easily allows you to get a feel for the members.

    Aside from that I would recommend simply picking a quest, check over DDOWiki briefly if for any potential problems, throw up an LFM, and hop in on the difficulty you feel confident you can solo. If necessary grab a hireling.
    Last edited by Ryiah; 05-27-2013 at 09:55 AM.
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