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Thread: Dead Saturday

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Why? Because you are getting a kick out of the game dying? or because you have a poor understanding of human nature?
    The reason that what you said is so funny is that you so completely believe in this 'joiner' idea that you have imagined. That there is a huge number of people setting there staring at the LFM window for long periods of time on end just waiting to see the quest that they want to run appear. With no proof at all you seem to have taken this up as your rallying cry. The fact that you yourself have commented on how you post an LFM only to have it set for long periods of time with no one joining seems to disprove the very idea, yet you are unwavering in your belief in this 'joiner' concept. It is absolutely hilarious.

  2. #22
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    @ironclan

    Sorry I just don't buy it that lfms are too restrictive. I started up a bladeforged and went from 16 to 17 holding 18 last night running necro 4. I threw up an lfm for each quest as "elite, bb, byoh". The toon wasn't "well known" or anything because it was a new toon, and within 5 mins on each lfm I had at least 5 members and we went. A couple times I ended up turning people down because I had 10 people or so hit the lfm instantly and you can only have 6 people in a party. None of the people had a problem with the restrictions and were able to fill their role as described with byoh.

    Are we in a "there's a new game out" fluctuation? Yeah probably, but that's happened before.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Once again this is the critical mass effect we're seeing, the grouping system has so many impediments

    Such as?

    [
    Believe it or not a lot of players are just sitting on the couch watching comedy channel or a movie with the LFM window open with no groups to join in their level range.
    So your argument is that the problem is there are LOTS of people playing but they are too lazy to start their own groups? Yeah, that's probably true based on the number of people who complain they sit and look at blank LFM lists.

    (I've sat for hours personally); count the number of groups that are JUST OUTSIDE your level on both ends Elite BB or otherwise.
    This is bizarre, START YOUR OWN GROUP. It's not hard, and for most of the non raid quests in the game requires no pre-knowledge of the quest or any real leadership skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Why? Because you are getting a kick out of the game dying? or because you have a poor understanding of human nature?
    I see no indications that the game is dying. During yesterday's "dead day" I logged on at three separate points. During the first time there was a group running a quest that interested in me. We filled in minutes and we stuck as a group for about an hour before I dropped off to deal with life (they continued on).

    The second time I was on there were no LFMs up in ranges/quests I was interested in. I started my own LFM (BYOH, all welcome) . I then started to get ship buffs and headed to the quest. I had 4 others in group by the time I got to the front door of Deleras and while we were in the first room of the first quest (now pt1 "IP" LFM) we got our 6th. When the chain was finished I wanted to rerun pt 4 on hard, most had to go but I filled the 4 empty spots in the time it took me to advance the quest and rebuff.

    The third time I was on I needed a quest that was quick (due to rl time issues) and the ones up in my rages were longer so I once again started a group. We had 4 or 5 (I forget) in group by the time I finished buffing and got to the front door, and the rest filled during the 15 or so minutes we were running the quest.

    Lots of people out there, you just have to take the smallest amount of initiative.
    Last edited by Gkar; 05-26-2013 at 07:07 AM.

  4. #24
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    I have noticed that the who lists are still incredibly long. They just aren't posting or clicking on lfm's. I'm one of those guilty people these days, I confess. I mostly run with two long term play buddies or solo these days. I used to pug a lot, but I've been seduced by the it's faster and easier to do it alone aspect of the game. LOL
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post

    you just have to take the smallest amount of initiative.
    I have lfm up constantly, no one is joining and there are certainly few casters and NO healers

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    I have lfm up constantly, no one is joining and there are certainly few casters and NO healers
    This is then norm right now and I don't think it has anything to do with people not wanting to join some people's LFMS because of behavior problems. Right now I see 0 lfms up for levels 25 on Sarlona. Earlier I saw 3 up all with exactly 1 person in them. The defense channel had around the mid-40s during prime time EST a few months ago and now it has high 20s. The casual channel had high 30s last fall and I dropped out of it recently because it only had 1-3 people on it recently.

    Echoing what Trinity said, I am part of the problem because I was a frequent LFM poster and rarely post now. Solo/zerging has allowed our guild to advance several levels since the fall when we had stalled previously. LFMs mean half the renown for me. I join an LFM maybe 10% of the time now (so maybe 10 quests per week as I play quite a bit). Usually if someone asks me to join or if I happen to see an LFM up I wanted to run anyhow.

    As a bonus, I am getting an extra 10% xp every quest because I almost never die except EE and deaths are much more frequent in PUGs. I know when I was a newer player vets would get frustrated when I died because of the 10%. I don't care that much about it, but it's 700k extra xp from 1 - 25 so it adds up.

    I also don't think it has anything to do with DDO not being a great game - because DDO is a great game. But you need to either join a big guild or be comfortable soloing/short-manning because that is the state of th game and I don' t thin it will change except for short periodswhen new content is released.

    Since I started typing 2 lfms popped up. Both with exactly 1 person for the last minute or so.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewSlarden View Post
    This is then norm right now and I don't think it has anything to do with people not wanting to join some people's LFMS because of behavior problems. Right now I see 0 lfms up for levels 25 on Sarlona. Earlier I saw 3 up all with exactly 1 person in them. The defense channel had around the mid-40s during prime time EST a few months ago and now it has high 20s. The casual channel had high 30s last fall and I dropped out of it recently because it only had 1-3 people on it recently.

    Echoing what Trinity said, I am part of the problem because I was a frequent LFM poster and rarely post now. Solo/zerging has allowed our guild to advance several levels since the fall when we had stalled previously. LFMs mean half the renown for me. I join an LFM maybe 10% of the time now (so maybe 10 quests per week as I play quite a bit). Usually if someone asks me to join or if I happen to see an LFM up I wanted to run anyhow.

    As a bonus, I am getting an extra 10% xp every quest because I almost never die except EE and deaths are much more frequent in PUGs. I know when I was a newer player vets would get frustrated when I died because of the 10%. I don't care that much about it, but it's 700k extra xp from 1 - 25 so it adds up.

    I also don't think it has anything to do with DDO not being a great game - because DDO is a great game. But you need to either join a big guild or be comfortable soloing/short-manning because that is the state of th game and I don' t thin it will change except for short periodswhen new content is released.

    Since I started typing 2 lfms popped up. Both with exactly 1 person for the last minute or so.
    oops I got so used to logging in *** the account I created since this one wasn't working that I accidently posted with the wrong account. Names are close enough that it is likely obvious anyhow.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLegendOfAra View Post
    So, Yeah... The servers are not dead, or dying.
    Neither is the game from a population standpoint.
    People that occasionally count how many people online can easily see the trend that you are trying to pretend doesn't exist. As always summer is the big factor, but ****** expansion after ****** expansion, stupid stupid bugs, uncertain futures and gear obsolescence isn't helping anything.

    Who wants to grind out a twilight and a billion commendations for it when their ridiculous spell power formula means it's going to be behind a random drop level 28 item?

  9. #29
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    (I'm curious - do LFMs that are byoh and elite/bb fill fast? 'Cause I haven't really felt comfortable doing elites -all- the time-, wish there were an alternative to the bb streak, and as for byoh, I'm not entirely sure my main is completely byoh, and I am very sure that only very experiened players would assume they were. So, it makes sense that elite/bb/BYOH groups would fill with experienced, available, veteran players. What about the vast amount of others who might not be as experienced or might not consider themselves as experienced and/or interested in elite/bb/BYOH?)

    I'm just reading the thread, curious about this...I, too, always seem to see less LFMs recently, although more of them for the lower levels than higher and I, too, attribute it to large guilds.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by My2Cents View Post
    (I'm curious - do LFMs that are byoh and elite/bb fill fast? 'Cause I haven't really felt comfortable doing elites -all- the time-, wish there were an alternative to the bb streak, and as for byoh, I'm not entirely sure my main is completely byoh, and I am very sure that only very experiened players would assume they were. So, it makes sense that elite/bb/BYOH groups would fill with experienced, available, veteran players. What about the vast amount of others who might not be as experienced or might not consider themselves as experienced and/or interested in elite/bb/BYOH?)

    I'm just reading the thread, curious about this...I, too, always seem to see less LFMs recently, although more of them for the lower levels than higher and I, too, attribute it to large guilds.
    People put up byoh groups because we cant stand waiting for healer nor we need one, so it means come prepared and grab some pots, dont pull more aggro than you can kill and you will be fine.

  11. #31
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    I have lfm up constantly, no one is joining and there are certainly few casters and NO healers
    This has nothing to do with lower population imo. Healers have always been rare because of the abuse they get from some pugs and the fact that while some toons need them, they don't need you. Same with arcanes in some ways except for the abuse. The problem with arcanes for many is that they have been heavily proxy nerfed to oblivion. I was working on my tr ultimate caster build before egh. It's hard to go back to if saves are going to be the way they are in egh so I've gone to other toons.

  12. #32
    Community Member kmoustakas's Avatar
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    (Ignore this please didn't realise my last message actually posted... I had gotten a time out error and simply assumed it didn't)
    Last edited by kmoustakas; 05-26-2013 at 03:24 PM. Reason: Forum error

  13. #33
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    Okay so option B, you don't understand human nature. Next time just say so.
    No he's right, you've offered your opinion on it, but it's just that your opinion. You have no hard factual proof, just your opinion on it. Without data that we'll never get from turbine there is no way to prove it one way or another but some peoples experience goes against yours, meaning it is not as clean cut as you want it to be.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzB View Post
    The only problem with that explanation is that it's been this way for several weeks. It's exacerbated by the long holiday weekend no doubt, but last Saturday wasn't particularly active either.
    Maybe YOU were not busy, but I sure as hell was and kept everyone in my groups busy.

    So much going on I could not keep up.

    But of course, every LFM I had up or one I was in filled up, even Raids, very quickly. I never sit and stare at the LFM waiting on someone else to decide to do what I want to do so I can join. I do what I want to do when I want to and take people along with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewSlarden View Post
    This is then norm right now and I don't think it has anything to do with people not wanting to join some people's LFMS because of behavior problems. Right now I see 0 lfms up for levels 25 on Sarlona. Earlier I saw 3 up all with exactly 1 person in them. The defense channel had around the mid-40s during prime time EST a few months ago and now it has high 20s. The casual channel had high 30s last fall and I dropped out of it recently because it only had 1-3 people on it recently.
    What?!?!?

    No end-game groups at NINE THIRTY ON A SATURDAY MORNING?


    Doom?

    Quote Originally Posted by hsinclair
    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
    Adventurer, Bug Reporter, Mournlander.

  16. #36
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldgolem View Post
    I have lfm up constantly, no one is joining and there are certainly few casters and NO healers
    You're doing it wrong, you need to just have a little initiative and start your own LFM's.... oh...

    Never mind that if everyone started an LFM there would just be more 1 player LFM's... You know... like there always are? I counted 15 one man LFM's last night out of 22 LFM's 7 of which were expired "In progress" and another 3 or 4 were IP on quests where entering after everyone else zerged off is a sure bet to die in a red alert and get cussed at because even with invis Mobs still alert.

    It's amazing to me how little many people understand of Human nature, most people in life are followers, they don't want the responsibility, they join, but they do not self start. Were do you think we get employees from? If everyone was cut out to be the guy, everyone would run their own business, Army's would be full of generals. Everyone would run for President and no one would be left to vote

    Personally I don't think you need to PUG much to recognize the various aspects of anti grouping friction the game has, that are needless. everything from quest knowledge making most people shy away from posting their own LFM's to level ranges being so tight for BB, they are rather obvious to anyone that actually uses the LFM system on a nightly basis. Or they THINK they're participating in the grouping system by going IP immediately and solo'ing with an LFM up.

    I've never cared for "commiting" to guilds, the politics "so why was so-and-so kicked from the guild" "oh he sucked" or "he was talking trash behind our backs" or "no one liked him" etc. etc. and etc. "so-and-another-so didn't get along" "how come you quit man" and "why is so-and-yet-another-so mad at you now!?" Not to say some of my characters aren't in guilds... but I only have so much patience for it, and I don't guild every new alt, on purpose.

    Last night I spent from 10PM to 3 in the morning looking at the Thelanis LFM panel between commercial breaks, I joined one IP Rusted Blades, and IIRC I had the HONEST option to join:

    One guy "farming ED's with Mom" (some of you saw this right?)
    One 4 man Abbot who sent me a tell but spent the next maybe hour and a half not filling at all.
    One EH Chrono that disappeared before I could click it
    a handful of 1 man LFM's for stuff that was very uninteresting (favor cleanup, Loot only overleveled etc.)
    Several IP 1 man LFM's with scary stuff in the description like "need help don't know what I'm doing LULZ!"
    One channel shroud that went pug for the last two spots, but I didn't log off and log onto the correct character (only need shards) in time to join.
    2 LFM's for stuff I'm not flagged for
    1 LFM for Druids Deep that might have been a 1 man LFM, I don't own that pack yet.
    1 LFM for Cannith Challenges advertizing "for XP" that was 18-21 that had 4 people in it that I would have joined had I had a character in that range that needed ANYTHING including first time XP from them. OR had they NOT been after XP, I would have joined with my 25 FvS for ings or my 23 Pali also for Ingrediants. Sadly none of those were the case and I was excluded on 3 different characters purely by circumstance.

    I netted 15k XP and two chests looted (Matrons chest and end chest) on the night because I don't care to solo in an MMO and

    Anyone who doesn't understand how the LFM system has needless exclusions either has Alts in every level range and a willingness to not focus on ANY of them for more than 1 quest at a time, or they don't PUG much, or they Solo IP and pretend they are pugging, or they have lots of guild buddies to join.

    I've said it before I guess I need to say it again:
    Flagging requirements
    Tight Level ranges
    Meta-gaming (memorization of quests expected/required to lead groups unless you like getting yelled at for leading without meta-knowledge, OR sitting in an empty LFM with "So-and-so would not like to be the leader" and the words "need guide/leader" in your one man until you drop it LFM)
    BB streaks
    DDOwiki required to find quest giver
    DDOwiki required to find quest location
    DDOwiki required to find out what quest you need to do before you can do the one there's an LFM for
    Raid timers
    Favor Only
    Loot Only
    Not the class/skill they need
    Not the E-opener they need
    And these are just the game mechanic enforced ones I wont bother listing player exclusions like BYOH, KNOW IT, STRONGS ONLY, TEAM WORK NO RUSH, ZERG ONLY etc. because there's nothing much that can be done about those, nor would anything need to be done if the game enforced exclusions were made better, relaxed, removed or otherwise mitigated.

  17. #37
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charononus View Post
    No he's right, you've offered your opinion on it, but it's just that your opinion. You have no hard factual proof, just your opinion on it. Without data that we'll never get from turbine there is no way to prove it one way or another but some peoples experience goes against yours, meaning it is not as clean cut as you want it to be.
    You really need to me to post proof that most people are not leaders?

    What else do you need? Most people aren't as smart as Einstein? Most pigs can't fly? Most bears **** in woods?

    There are things that are so self evident that most people can talk about them without having to "prove" their underlying premise, because without this almost every dialog would get bogged down in needlessly recovering tangentially related foundational knowledge.

    I'm not going to show you the Geometry that proves the earth isn't flat, and I'm not going to google sociology studies that prove that the average human is risk adverse and hesitant to take the lead. Because anyone who isn't purely trying to derail and be contrary for no good reason understands these to be the facts of life.

  18. #38
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    You're doing it wrong, you need to just have a little initiative and start your own LFM's.... oh...

    Never mind that if everyone started an LFM there would just be more 1 player LFM's... You know... like there always are? I counted 15 one man LFM's last night out of 22 LFM's 7 of which were expired "In progress" and another 3 or 4 were IP on quests where entering after everyone else zerged off is a sure bet to die in a red alert and get cussed at because even with invis Mobs still alert.

    It's amazing to me how little many people understand of Human nature, most people in life are followers, they don't want the responsibility, they join, but they do not self start. Were do you think we get employees from? If everyone was cut out to be the guy, everyone would run their own business, Army's would be full of generals. Everyone would run for President and no one would be left to vote

    Personally I don't think you need to PUG much to recognize the various aspects of anti grouping friction the game has, that are needless. everything from quest knowledge making most people shy away from posting their own LFM's to level ranges being so tight for BB, they are rather obvious to anyone that actually uses the LFM system on a nightly basis. Or they THINK they're participating in the grouping system by going IP immediately and solo'ing with an LFM up.

    I've never cared for "commiting" to guilds, the politics "so why was so-and-so kicked from the guild" "oh he sucked" or "he was talking trash behind our backs" or "no one liked him" etc. etc. and etc. "so-and-another-so didn't get along" "how come you quit man" and "why is so-and-yet-another-so mad at you now!?" Not to say some of my characters aren't in guilds... but I only have so much patience for it, and I don't guild every new alt, on purpose.

    Last night I spent from 10PM to 3 in the morning looking at the Thelanis LFM panel between commercial breaks, I joined one IP Rusted Blades, and IIRC I had the HONEST option to join:

    One guy "farming ED's with Mom" (some of you saw this right?)
    One 4 man Abbot who sent me a tell but spent the next maybe hour and a half not filling at all.
    One EH Chrono that disappeared before I could click it
    a handful of 1 man LFM's for stuff that was very uninteresting (favor cleanup, Loot only overleveled etc.)
    Several IP 1 man LFM's with scary stuff in the description like "need help don't know what I'm doing LULZ!"
    One channel shroud that went pug for the last two spots, but I didn't log off and log onto the correct character (only need shards) in time to join.
    2 LFM's for stuff I'm not flagged for
    1 LFM for Druids Deep that might have been a 1 man LFM, I don't own that pack yet.
    1 LFM for Cannith Challenges advertizing "for XP" that was 18-21 that had 4 people in it that I would have joined had I had a character in that range that needed ANYTHING including first time XP from them. OR had they NOT been after XP, I would have joined with my 25 FvS for ings or my 23 Pali also for Ingrediants. Sadly none of those were the case and I was excluded on 3 different characters purely by circumstance.

    I netted 15k XP and two chests looted (Matrons chest and end chest) on the night because I don't care to solo in an MMO and

    Anyone who doesn't understand how the LFM system has needless exclusions either has Alts in every level range and a willingness to not focus on ANY of them for more than 1 quest at a time, or they don't PUG much, or they Solo IP and pretend they are pugging, or they have lots of guild buddies to join.

    I've said it before I guess I need to say it again:
    Flagging requirements
    Tight Level ranges
    Meta-gaming (memorization of quests expected/required to lead groups unless you like getting yelled at for leading without meta-knowledge, OR sitting in an empty LFM with "So-and-so would not like to be the leader" and the words "need guide/leader" in your one man until you drop it LFM)
    BB streaks
    DDOwiki required to find quest giver
    DDOwiki required to find quest location
    DDOwiki required to find out what quest you need to do before you can do the one there's an LFM for
    Raid timers
    Favor Only
    Loot Only
    Not the class/skill they need
    Not the E-opener they need
    And these are just the game mechanic enforced ones I wont bother listing player exclusions like BYOH, KNOW IT, STRONGS ONLY, TEAM WORK NO RUSH, ZERG ONLY etc. because there's nothing much that can be done about those, nor would anything need to be done if the game enforced exclusions were made better, relaxed, removed or otherwise mitigated.
    You sure you were on thelanis? I was on thelanis from 7pm-12am est, I put up groups for fleshmakers, ghosts of perdition, and vol. Each and every time the group was full or mostly full as stated earlier in the thread by the time I was finished buffing. I had it up for elite, bb, byoh, with a level range of 14-16. Here's the reason for it, elite, and bravery bonus because it gets xp faster. Byoh because I was not on a healing toon and I was planing on taking the first 5 people that hit the lfm. I will never wait around for a divine or hold a spot that a real person could take by using a hire. That said if there are only a few people in the group and you want a hire I don't have an issue with that but realize I will ask you to dismiss it if someone wants to join for the last spot. (This is most quests, some quests a hire is an actual hinderence) Finally the level range, 16 is the most you can get for bravery bonus, 14 is because I don't like pikers and if you were 13 there is a high probability you would be piking as a soul stone or functionally piking from the inability to do enough damage to make a real contribution compared to others.

    Honestly if you are having problems posting your own groups and having them fill on thelanis something is going on with you personally where people are avoiding your lfm for one reason or another. I may not always have a full six person group but I always have at least four people within minutes.

  19. #39
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironclans_evil_twin View Post
    You really need to me to post proof that most people are not leaders?

    What else do you need? Most people aren't as smart as Einstein? Most pigs can't fly? Most bears **** in woods?

    There are things that are so self evident that most people can talk about them without having to "prove" their underlying premise, because without this almost every dialog would get bogged down in needlessly recovering tangentially related foundational knowledge.

    I'm not going to show you the Geometry that proves the earth isn't flat, and I'm not going to google sociology studies that prove that the average human is risk adverse and hesitant to take the lead. Because anyone who isn't purely trying to derail and be contrary for no good reason understands these to be the facts of life.
    And you're ignoring the evidence I have provided that is contrary to your experience. Same server, roughly the same times. Guess cause it's not evidence for your theory it doesn't exist. You're behaving like a politician, and that is one of the worst insults to give a person imo.

  20. #40
    Community Member Ironclans_evil_twin's Avatar
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    Oh yeah there were also at least 2 or 3 LFM's for the new quests overlevel for PDK favor... meh.
    I'm as likely to play a quest for the first time overlevel and only for favor, as I am to watch a movie that half way over.

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