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  1. #1
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    Default Help, I think I hate this.

    Disclaimer: despite some opinionated language (which only applies to my taste/experience) I have no desire to offend anybody or their tastes. I am simply asking like-minded folk for some info and input.


    Background skip this paragraph if you need to cut to the chase or have no tolerance of DDO criticism): I started playing the paper and pen games in the 80s and loved the PC games including Bard's tale series, gold box series (Pool of Radiance, etc.), and the venerable Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate games. The latter were the epitome of blending the pen & paper with the PC. I have tried other successive AD&D PC games, and they all seem to fall flat... Something of a glorified Diablo. Nothing matched the party-driven, turn-based chess match the older games brought. I decided to finally try DDO based on a review, and after a couple of hours, I think I am leaning towards "hate". The rules and dynamics have no feel of the older/original games, the graphics are poor and campy, and the whole thing smacks of a bad 2001 PC game. If I want a single player "abandon the original format" experience, I don't see why I shouldn't re-play Skyrim instead which thus far seems to be superior in every respect, minus a multiplayer mode.


    Now the questions...

    - Is there an ACTIVE online tabletop site or RPG gaming site that embraces earlier edition style play?

    - aside from eventually joining into multiplayer quests, does this game change (improve any) or does it continue to be the same "left click" scramble that it has been thus far?


    Thanks in advance to any offering constructive input.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldboxfan View Post
    Disclaimer: despite some opinionated language (which only applies to my taste/experience) I have no desire to offend anybody or their tastes. I am simply asking like-minded folk for some info and input.


    Background skip this paragraph if you need to cut to the chase or have no tolerance of DDO criticism): I started playing the paper and pen games in the 80s and loved the PC games including Bard's tale series, gold box series (Pool of Radiance, etc.), and the venerable Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate games. The latter were the epitome of blending the pen & paper with the PC. I have tried other successive AD&D PC games, and they all seem to fall flat... Something of a glorified Diablo. Nothing matched the party-driven, turn-based chess match the older games brought. I decided to finally try DDO based on a review, and after a couple of hours, I think I am leaning towards "hate". The rules and dynamics have no feel of the older/original games, the graphics are poor and campy, and the whole thing smacks of a bad 2001 PC game. If I want a single player "abandon the original format" experience, I don't see why I shouldn't re-play Skyrim instead which thus far seems to be superior in every respect, minus a multiplayer mode.


    Now the questions...

    - Is there an ACTIVE online tabletop site or RPG gaming site that embraces earlier edition style play?

    - aside from eventually joining into multiplayer quests, does this game change (improve any) or does it continue to be the same "left click" scramble that it has been thus far?


    Thanks in advance to any offering constructive input.

    I'm afraid you're going to have to elaborate on what you've been doing for the few hours you've been playing. What class have you played, what quests have you run, have you run solo or in a group, have you bothered to try to talk to anyone in-game, what server are you on?

  3. #3
    Community Member Thud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldboxfan View Post

    Thanks in advance to any offering constructive input.

    Constructive?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltarrin View Post
    I'm afraid you're going to have to elaborate on what you've been doing for the few hours you've been playing. What class have you played, what quests have you run, have you run solo or in a group, have you bothered to try to talk to anyone in-game, what server are you on?
    Certainly...

    I have been playing a Paladin, experiencing the tutorial levels on Orien. I am leaving the village to perform solo quests on the outskirts of town now. My "multiplayer interactions" to date include a few spawned characters running around and swinging swords at merchants. I am running it on a home internet connection (which crashed 3x creating a character and 2x entering the world, but has since started behaving).


    Quote Originally Posted by Thud View Post
    Constructive?
    con·struc·tive

    Adjective

    1. Serving a useful purpose...

  5. #5
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldboxfan View Post
    Now the questions...

    - Is there an ACTIVE online tabletop site or RPG gaming site that embraces earlier edition style play?

    - aside from eventually joining into multiplayer quests, does this game change (improve any) or does it continue to be the same "left click" scramble that it has been thus far?


    Thanks in advance to any offering constructive input.
    You'd have to find your own party, but mayhaps this would work for you?

    http://roll20.net/

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldboxfan View Post
    Certainly...

    I have been playing a Paladin, experiencing the tutorial levels on Orien. I am leaving the village to perform solo quests on the outskirts of town now. My "multiplayer interactions" to date include a few spawned characters running around and swinging swords at merchants. I am running it on a home internet connection (which crashed 3x creating a character and 2x entering the world, but has since started behaving).




    con·struc·tive

    Adjective

    1. Serving a useful purpose...
    This is a problem endemic to the absolutely retarded way the developers designed the game. You need to either hope you run into a veteran slumming it on Korthos who is willing to answer all your questions (and knows you have questions in need of answers) or you have to come to the intellectual meat grinder that is the forums, where sapience goes to die.

    I would recommend trying to form a party, if only to get a feel for the grouping possibilities. Click on the dragon icon in the extreme lower left of your game screen and then click Social. Select the Create/Edit Party button and it will take you to a screen where you can choose what classes to allow or disallow in your group, what level range to accept (anything more than two levels higher than your own will incur XP penalties assuming the adventure you're in is equal to your own level), and lets you write a short message. Once you're done, post it and any requests to join will appear in your chat box. You'll have an option to accept or decline.

    A good message to put in might be Korthos Quests. New Player, Going Slow.

  7. #7
    Community Member Jeremiah179's Avatar
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    Honestly.... when I started, I was an experienced computer gamer, semi-experienced online gamer. I knew I was jumping into a mature game and that there would be a learning curve.

    The game is six years old... unless you expect Turbine to staff people to run around in the first parts of the game pretending to be new/helpful players...which they could I guess... you need to be a bit more understanding and clever to be able to jump right in.

    I think your opinion of the game play and the graphics was harsh. I think the slight about crashing a lot has more to do with your computing experiences than DDO, or unlucky... myself and many others have no problems at all.

    I played solo for almost a year... I probably should of jumped into grouping faster... but I wanted to experience everything "flower-sniffer" style you might say... I did not want to be drug through at warp speed by someone who has done the quest 30 times and is just leveling for extra bonuses and such.

    By the time I started grouping, it was not always perfect, but I at least knew what I was doing...

    I would agree that there is not a mechanic or any motivation for the players to provide a warm welcome and tutoring for new players at this point... perhaps Turbine should really think that through.

    However, if you had never played pen and paper... and you went to some huge event with dozens of gaming tables and perhaps even a competition running of some sort and you just sat down and "winged it" it may be a rough first go as well. So perhaps you are being unfair without putting much of your own effort.

    Or perhaps it really just is not your cup of tea?

    ddowiki.com is a good resource for game information if you wanted to find out more information about just about anything in the game. And if you work at it a bit, I am sure you can find a lot of nice people who are more than willing to provide the help you need - but they are not "F1"- help buttons... they are real humans trying to relax and have fun themselves... so it takes a little effort to build relationships.

    Best of luck if you stick with it - personally I really enjoy my time playing DDO.
    Jeremiiah - Isaiiah - Zephaniiah - Ghallanda - Old Timers Guild

  8. #8
    Community Member Myrddinman's Avatar
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    Good on you for making your way to the official forums...most players don't even know or bother with.

    Like Jeremiah mentions above, DDOWiki will be the single best resource for you. Check out this link:
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Newbie_guide

    Keep the questions coming and you'll find some helpful folks here.
    Quote Originally Posted by 404error View Post
    there will always be bugs in DDO it will never be bug free at any point in its lifetime.

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    What are you missing actually, the good old Thac0 and the negative AC? D&D's 2ed edition was bloody terrible. Despite that, I loved BG to death because of its stories, the relations between NPCs and the freedom you had to go where you wanted to go. IWD had none of that. How can you like IWD and dislike Diablo? They're basically the same hack'n slash linear games, albeit different rules and you get to control a party instead of being a lone character.

    Skyrim is not party driven nor is it turn based. So what's the difference, the graphics? Yes, I'll give you that, Skyrim has nice graphics. You have also a lot of freedom, which is nice, but the NPCs are extremely boring. Can't compare that follower girl Lydia to Minsc or Imoen.

    Got to take DDO for what it is and while it's not perfect, it's quite unique in it's genre. It's an MMO too, can't compare any MMO to single player games man... I prefer to take an other human being with me in my adventures, rather than that stupid Lydia!!

    So no, no suggestions for you. I'm sure there's some turn based MMOs out there if that's your main complaint.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathimon View Post
    What are you missing actually, the good old Thac0 and the negative AC? D&D's 2ed edition was bloody terrible. Despite that, I loved BG to death because of its stories, the relations between NPCs and the freedom you had to go where you wanted to go. IWD had none of that. How can you like IWD and dislike Diablo? They're basically the same hack'n slash linear games, albeit different rules and you get to control a party instead of being a lone character.

    Skyrim is not party driven nor is it turn based. So what's the difference, the graphics? Yes, I'll give you that, Skyrim has nice graphics. You have also a lot of freedom, which is nice, but the NPCs are extremely boring. Can't compare that follower girl Lydia to Minsc or Imoen.

    Got to take DDO for what it is and while it's not perfect, it's quite unique in it's genre. It's an MMO too, can't compare any MMO to single player games man... I prefer to take an other human being with me in my adventures, rather than that stupid Lydia!!

    So no, no suggestions for you. I'm sure there's some turn based MMOs out there if that's your main complaint.
    2nd Edition was far better than anything Nazis of the Coast has crapped out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltarrin View Post
    2nd Edition was far better than anything Nazis of the Coast has crapped out.
    If you think 2ed edition was better than 3rd edition, well... either you're trolling or the nostalgia's blurring your judgement bad!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathimon View Post
    If you think 2ed edition was better than 3rd edition, well... either you're trolling or the nostalgia's blurring your judgement bad!!
    Or *gasp!**horror!* I have an opinion that legitimately differs from your own! I gave 3e a chance and found it bland, boring, and uninspired. It felt like it sorta-kinda wanted to be GURPS but didn't have the balls to commit to the change. 2e, meanwhile was a genuine improvement and expansion upon 1e that in its latter days with the Players Option material began to finally carve out a unique identity for itself.

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    I would say no to your question, it will never feel like classic D&D unless you restrict yourself. I personally would of stopped playing a long time go if it was not for the Permadeath guild Mortal Voyage. My suggestion would be to find a guild that plays like you want to and the join that guild.

  14. #14
    Community Member Satyriasys's Avatar
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    Also note that the older the content you are playing the worse it looks. The newer packs looks A LOT nicer then the early ones. Also paladin is not a fun class IMO. That being said I still think DDO is miles ahead of any other MMO

  15. #15
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    If ya want pnp then ya need to go to a trading store, and there, odds are they will have dnd games. Or you can slap an ad on craigslist. I'm sure that end result will go well....
    Through avarice, evil smiles; through insanity, it sings.

  16. #16
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    Interesting and appreciated input so far, particularly some of the tabletop suggestions. the passage quoted below is a little OT, but I don't mind addressing it if it's permissable in this forum.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cathimon View Post
    What are you missing actually, the good old Thac0 and the negative AC? D&D's 2ed edition was bloody terrible.
    Some things that capture the experience for me...

    The D&D I know was about creating a character, and putting this entity into a vast and fascinating world that posed a cerebral and strategic challenge. You started with next to nothing, fought hard through a few mundane quests simply to put simple equipment on your back. If you were successful, you got respectable equipment, but magic items were few and far between, making each item special. There weren't 1.6 million magic swords that were so common you had to restrict by levels to use (a nonsensical notion) giving the player the impression there is some Wal Mart of Magic items churning out junk you can't appreciate that gets tossed for the next disposable piece of kit. It is also fun to loot corpses... each one holding the promise of an gem, magic item, map, or quest item alongside the money and equipment that can be salvaged. A bunch of dead unlootable bodies (that had equipment they were using on you seconds before dying) with checkpoint treasure chests is as unfun as it gets.

    There were engaging NPCs. Some were important dungeon allies and some were treacherous backbiters, with many shades in between. There was story, drama and excitement with each person, rather than some walking checkpoint of an automoton.

    Adventures in and out of dungeons required scanning and interacting with the very walls, 10 to 20 feet at a time in order to check behind tapestries, remove the torch sconce, etc to reveal traps and secrets. This experience thus far is nothing more than a series of caves with an occasional checkpoint door or puzzle. it's all a means to a door with no enjoyment of the journey and the interaction of ihe surroundings.

    Do I even need to get into the can of worms of this self-serving post 2nd/3rd ed garbage about how everybody can learn a level of X and Y and Z? Why bother even having character classes then? The old way was restrictive, and that was the charm considering the watered-down roleplaying experience the alternative brings. Sure a Paladin could conceivably spend time learning to lockpick, but a Paladin would never sully himself to learn such a detestable act. While useless in a dungeon setting,, horsemanship or some other ability would be that character's forte. If the player didn't like that (s)he could play a different character, or become a bard. This "jack of all trades" nonsense, while smothing some rough edges on single player games, reduces the challenge of role playing and character classes to near pointlessness.



    Despite that, I loved BG to death because of its stories, the relations between NPCs and the freedom you had to go where you wanted to go. IWD had none of that. How can you like IWD and dislike Diablo? They're basically the same hack'n slash linear games, albeit different rules and you get to control a party instead of being a lone character.
    That "story" is precisely what games have abandoned of years now. We certainly agree there. How can I like IWD and dislike Diablo? Well, for starters, I can control up to six characters with different classes and skills, as opposed to one in single player mode. Moreover, Diablo had nothing more than a feeling of randomness and rehash. You went down to level X and killed a blue thing for some random item then you go down to level Y and some red thing that looks identical to the level X blue things drops some other random garbage. In IWD, the enemies had complete equipment and actually wielded that equipment against you, not dropped one random piece of junk. Don't get me wrong... the Diablo series has its charm for what it is, but When I want to play some quasi-mindless single player meets the same random generated foes I can happily play Diablo. The last thing I want to experience with an AD&D game is anything other than AD&D, not a "Diablo" with AD&D stamp on it, ala NWN.


    Skyrim is not party driven nor is it turn based. So what's the difference, the graphics? Yes, I'll give you that, Skyrim has nice graphics. You have also a lot of freedom, which is nice, but the NPCs are extremely boring. Can't compare that follower girl Lydia to Minsc or Imoen.

    Skyrim loses out on the party-driven system, indeed. Moreover, the puzzles are tedious and boring. Granted, the NPCs are also lackluster in dynamics from my favorite games. But citing these "falings" as evidence that DDO and Skyrim are the same is crazy. Skyrim allows the character to make choices between one army and another... between darkness and light. Choices that shape the character are present. DDO OTOH is cookie cutter Diablo. There seem to be no meaningful decisions with role-developing ramifications. In skyrim you have marriage (albeit disappointingly flat) and you have property. You have things outside of the hack and slash. AD&D had taverns, gaming, strongholds with retainers and henchmen. DDO OTOH offers what? Finally, The enemy AI in skyrim has its warts, but DDO AI is unacceptable and that needs no further explanation

    Got to take DDO for what it is and while it's not perfect, it's quite unique in it's genre. It's an MMO too, can't compare any MMO to single player games man... I prefer to take an other human being with me in my adventures, rather than that stupid Lydia!!

    So no, no suggestions for you. I'm sure there's some turn based MMOs out there if that's your main complaint.

    I suppose you have to take it FWIW but I am afraid I see little resemblance to the expansive world of AD&D with this flat uninspiring gameplay, regardless of editions. as for that, I played through 2nd, Ed, and the claim it was terrible makes no sense to me at all. It certainly had its flaws, but from what I have encountered, each successive edition past the second seemed to draw more and more criticism and by the way things have become so convoluted and watered down, I contend it is vastly surperior to successive editions once the pros and cons are fully weighed.
    Last edited by Goldboxfan; 05-24-2013 at 11:25 PM.

  17. #17
    Community Member Phemt81's Avatar
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    I don't understand. You said you liked BG, where all the customization available was to distribute some points on pre-assigned skills/spells and Diablo, where you basically had to keep the left mouse button pressed until the monster died (i never played it, i saw it at my friend's home as a teen and thought "pc games suck") and you are coming here telling us DDO give no feel of the original game? At least we have feats, skills, abilities and prestige classes to choose from...

    I am the first who critics real action based rpg games, but the story you are telling me here has something not working in terms of logic for me.

    I am not trying in any way to disrupt or dismiss your opinion, i am really confused by how the terms of paragon (games you played before) lead you to the questions you are making. Let me know what i am missing.
    Last edited by Phemt81; 05-24-2013 at 11:33 PM.
    How to revamp past life reward system <--- working again
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.
    Developers should fix this

  18. #18
    Community Member Charononus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldboxfan View Post
    snip
    Overall I think the things you're looking for won't be found in any mmo. You are looking for a strong rp storyline with differing paths based on what choices you made. Honestly I don't see that working well in an mmo. You can do things like that in table top games, single player games, ext. But with being an mmo some things like that have to be restricted.

    The multi-classing ext in ddo may not be exact 3.5 (no xp-penalty) but it's close and a pure pally won't be able to get points into open lock without a level of rogue or arti. They can take a level of arti and get those skills but during their pally levels the have to pay double for the skill points meaning that it requires a trade of in int which could possibly be better spent elsewhere.

    There are many problems in this game, and there are many things that it does well. That said I just don't see how any mmo is going to meet what you want out of it from your description. Take the game for what it is, a 3.5 based mmo, with some house rules.

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    Default Question:

    What is the quickest way to pull a gaming community together to get said community to rally behind a cause?

    I know how I would do it, apparently so does the OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Codog View Post
    [*]Small evolutionary change that can be completed in shorter stretches of time is more readily achieveable for us than large _revolutionary_ change. Revolutionary change can be rather destabilizing from an engineering and balance perspective.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltarrin View Post
    2nd Edition was far better than anything Nazis of the Coast has crapped out.
    Congratulations on two things. Typing the stupidest, bar none, thing I've seen today, and demonstrating that nothing you ever, ever say will have any value.

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