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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Sorry, I see the obvious source of contradiction - I'll elaborate:

    I don't consider CITW and FOT to be equal as far as raids go.

    The latter is completed in 10 minutes while fighting in a circle. CITW was actually a run that had several encounters, with physical RUNNING through a map.

    We haven't had, what is to me, a real raid in over a year. FOT was just a quick "here, lets throw a buncha bosses into a large room and have players take them down at the same time, kinda shroud part 2 style".

    FOT is a throw away raid, probably took nothing to design and code in comparison to CITW, LOB, or MA.

    Is that a more substantive explanation?
    While FOT is obviously 'simpler' in terms of design than those three, it certainly isn't easier, or in many cases, that much quicker. Maybe your server is better trained than mine, but on Khyber EH FOT is regularly pugged in my timeslot, but it certainly isn't a cakewalk when its done. Some more experienced tanks are emerging and that helps a lot, but CitW is steam rolled by pugs all the time now (admittedly, mostly EN).

  2. #22
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    Strange, I just did an ADQ, another one popped up 10 minutes later and filled before I could swap to another toon that wanted to do it. There is a full VON lfm on atm (11 + 1 saved spot) and I've been joining groups for it regularly trying to get my fighter a SoS shard. Not to mention the fact people run it fairly often for XP. My main, who's working towards her next 20th completion to get a cleansing essence, seldom has to wait more than 20 minutes for the next Shroud lfm to pop up.

    Along with FoT and CitW that's 5 raids that are actively run.

    Is it different on other servers?

    EDIT: I forgot about Chronoscope. Plenty of those, sometimes I do 2, 3 runs a day. Make that 6 actively run raids then.
    Last edited by Micron; 05-28-2013 at 10:39 AM.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Qhualor1's Avatar
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    there is a problem with raid groups, but its more quantity. I see them up, ADQ, VON, Chrono, CITW, FOT, Shroud, Abbot. I see the occasional VOD, LOB and Hound along with a once a week Twilight. I see them, but the first group I mentioned is more common than the others. FOT is the more popular pug raid on the lfm. groups run most of these raids more for the xp than anything else. if it wasn't for the xp, there would only be a few raids run commonly and the rest would fall off in the Twilight abyss. raids need more of reason to be run other than xp. we can do that with quests.

    its already been mentioned in the past that the focus will be expansions and Eberron will barely get any real focus. it would be nice to see the raid loot upgraded and be more relevant for end game, but I doubt we will see anything, other than a new item for a new class, like Artificer. I would like to see all raids kept up with the changing game because a lot of people like to raid and/or want the best loot for their character. it would keep these raids active and provide more variety for people for fun and for gear. maybe not so much for older players who already and probably still do bleed out the older raids, but upgraded loot would still make them want to go back for the millionth time.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    I'll keep this brief so i don't delve too far to the d000m!!! side . . .

    There are two raids that are routinely run at this time, FOT and CiTW. All the other stuff is barely run, even Shrouds take 30-45 minutes to fill.

    The old raid loot just isn't worth pursuing, and the pursuit of loot is what makes people run things more than once.

    Quite frankly raiding is dead in DDO. The the new "expansion" coming out without a raid makes this look like it's not going to change anytime soon.

    Raiding is fun, the current situation leaves a big hole in the end-game.
    Totally agree. I love to raid end game but they have killed that aspect lately. I still enjoy citw but once you vet the weapon you want out of there noone runs it again because the comm rate is so bad. And now no raid in expansion. When you cap a toon now guess the game is over and might as well move on to something else.

  5. #25
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    Three things can motivate me to run content, and I suspect others are the same.
    1) Experience
    2) Loot
    3) Fun

    The old raids are simply not good XP for time invested getting together a competent group to run it. Though, no one really runs a raid for experience, it is a motivating factor that can be looked at.

    The old raids are simply outclassed in their loot for the current leveling game. VoD and Hound were briefly given some additional life when they received new loot, but that's been outclassed. Re-examining this axis seems useful.

    Fun. The old raids were fun when they were a challenge. With epic destinies, stellar new gear, all they really are is a 30 minute button you push for loot you don't want, for no experience and no substantial challenge.

    I sadly think its unlikely Turbine will tweak the XP in a positive direction given that they make money off of pots and stones. People will buy new content to get new gear, which gives little incentive to update gear on old content that people already own. But if Turbine wants to avoid shrinking the game's content through obsolescence I think they'd need to update old raids to provide useful avenues for gear/XP with added challenge. Either making them all able to be epic, or given the continuing expansion of levels, make them all have selectable levels like the challenge system, within a general window of levels so that the player base isn't spread too thin. And then make the repeat penalty to XP be set to a timer similar to loot ransack timers and people may actually start running old raids again.
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  6. #26
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    Epic Shroud could be Epic if done right.

  7. #27
    Community Member Vint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gkar View Post
    Epic Shroud could be Epic if done right.
    I would love to see a change to Titan. This is probably my favorite raid/preraid in the game. The preraid requires teamwork with the different puzzles (love this). Could care less about the xp or loot from this either. Obviously they would have to make an incintive for others to want to run it, but people that have not had a chance to run this (due to very few running it) would appreciate this quest for sure.
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  8. #28
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleus View Post
    I sadly think its unlikely Turbine will tweak the XP in a positive direction given that they make money off of pots and stones.
    Not 100% true... They did give us bravery bonus at no cost.

    People will buy new content to get new gear, which gives little incentive to update gear on old content that people already own. But if Turbine wants to avoid shrinking the game's content through obsolescence I think they'd need to update old raids to provide useful avenues for gear/XP with added challenge.
    I agree... I dislike that old raids are no longer run... They made end-game much smaller with the raise to 25 level-cap by invalidating the epic gear grind, and removing a ton of fun raids from end-game at the same time (like Shroud and ToD).

    I'd love to see Shroud, ToD, VoD, and Hound all redone for level 28 characters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I'd love to see Shroud, ToD, VoD, and Hound all redone for level 28 characters.
    See . . . I love to see NEW CONTENT instead, but we all know how long that takes. Seriously, this 'expansion' with no new raid is unforgivable. This would at least give us something to do.

    and the loot ABSOLUTELY needs to be worth pursuing or the whole thing is a waste of time.

  10. #30
    Community Member Xionanx's Avatar
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    I just started playing again after being gone for roughly a year or more, I have to say I was shocked to see how dead the servers are compared to what they were then.

    It seems to me, a lot of the raiding/LFM issues could be solved with server merges.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vint View Post
    I would love to see a change to Titan. This is probably my favorite raid/preraid in the game. The preraid requires teamwork with the different puzzles (love this). Could care less about the xp or loot from this either. Obviously they would have to make an incintive for others to want to run it, but people that have not had a chance to run this (due to very few running it) would appreciate this quest for sure.
    I always found flagging that quest to be a PITA. I don't think I've flagged any new characters for it in 3+ years.

  12. #32
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xionanx View Post
    I just started playing again after being gone for roughly a year or more, I have to say I was shocked to see how dead the servers are compared to what they were then.

    It seems to me, a lot of the raiding/LFM issues could be solved with server merges.
    Merging would solve nothing. The raids aren't run often because the loot is meh.

    The hunt for loot is what gets people to run things more than once, grind if you will, and MoTU and the current loot designers killed this. What's the point in running eChrono other that a first time XP bonus when the loot is all out-dated junk?

    Stuff still gets run and the TR community is very active at least at this time. End-game is a ghost town.

  13. #33
    Community Member Xionanx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    Merging would solve nothing. The raids aren't run often because the loot is meh.

    The hunt for loot is what gets people to run things more than once, grind if you will, and MoTU and the current loot designers killed this. What's the point in running eChrono other that a first time XP bonus when the loot is all out-dated junk?

    Stuff still gets run and the TR community is very active at least at this time. End-game is a ghost town.
    Hench why I suggested server mergers. More players on a server increases the chances there is someone wanting to run something, even if the loot is junk.

    I feel you though, I never got onto the "Shroud" bandwagon back in the day, been playing since 2006 and only have ONE GS item to show for it, and now I never see shroud runs up. So if I even wanted to make some GS for my TR lifes to use I'd be pretty screwed.

    Cannith crafting was decent when it was added, but now they have new random loot effects that make the cannith effects you can add junk. So once again your better off waiting on random loot drops then trying to level your cannith crafting.

    Meh.. this game needs a complete loot systems overhaul IMO as well. Just one big massive update that completely overhauls how ALL loot/crafting is done. But I've been saying that for ages.. isn't any money in making the stuff you already sold to people work right/better, but there is plenty of money to be had selling them a NEW system that promises to make all the stuff in the OLD system seem like junk..

  14. #34
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xionanx View Post
    Hench why I suggested server mergers. More players on a server increases the chances there is someone wanting to run something, even if the loot is junk.
    Not really . . . if there's no reason to run a raid (already ran it, gear is meh) having twice as many people to not run it with won't make a difference. TRing is doing great right now as a lot of people did it. EE loot runs on quests still fill fine as there is a reason to run it.

    Raids besides CiTW and FOT . . . not so much.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xionanx View Post
    Meh.. this game needs a complete loot systems overhaul IMO as well. Just one big massive update that completely overhauls how ALL loot/crafting is done. But I've been saying that for ages.. isn't any money in making the stuff you already sold to people work right/better, but there is plenty of money to be had selling them a NEW system that promises to make all the stuff in the OLD system seem like junk..
    That pretty much describes the business model this game is based on.

  16. #36
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cetus View Post
    Sorry, I see the obvious source of contradiction - I'll elaborate:

    I don't consider CITW and FOT to be equal as far as raids go.

    The latter is completed in 10 minutes while fighting in a circle. CITW was actually a run that had several encounters, with physical RUNNING through a map.

    We haven't had, what is to me, a real raid in over a year. FOT was just a quick "here, lets throw a buncha bosses into a large room and have players take them down at the same time, kinda shroud part 2 style".

    FOT is a throw away raid, probably took nothing to design and code in comparison to CITW, LOB, or MA.

    Is that a more substantive explanation?
    It's Hound, without the annoying run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Micron View Post
    Strange, I just did an ADQ, another one popped up 10 minutes later and filled before I could swap to another toon that wanted to do it. There is a full VON lfm on atm (11 + 1 saved spot) and I've been joining groups for it regularly trying to get my fighter a SoS shard. Not to mention the fact people run it fairly often for XP. My main, who's working towards her next 20th completion to get a cleansing essence, seldom has to wait more than 20 minutes for the next Shroud lfm to pop up.
    - SoS is still viable, plus VoN drops scales. Handy. So, less good loot, but still some good loot.
    - DQs are often short-manned, and for a TR the Torc is still a freaking Torc. So, less good loot, but still some good loot. Some reward, but also little effort.
    - Chrono is also, often short-manned. It's loot isn't as completely replaced as others yet.


    I have some thoughts I tossed into the suggestion forum earlier for epics and raids in general, but the pragmatic part of me assumes there will be few, if any, changes.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Teh_Troll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xionanx View Post
    isn't any money in making the stuff you already sold to people work right/better, but there is plenty of money to be had selling them a NEW system that promises to make all the stuff in the OLD system seem like junk..
    And there isn't any money in a game where all the players have left because they are bored or fed up with the utter incompetence of the developers. I'm sorry but making people have to redo all their toons every few months will get more people to quit than it retains. Look at the current player populations to back my point.

    This game was better when loot obsolescence wasn't standard. Greensteel was worth is because though it took weeks/months to acquire it was useful for years. This was standard for DDO, the time you put into getting gear was never wasted.

    Not the case any more. The current loot people have no respect for your time, no respect for the loot that came before them, and no respect for you as a person. MoTU out-dated much, throw in high-road and EE GH and it's a different animal. Good items used to retain use for years, now the shelf-life is so short it's not even worth pursuing.

    For heck sake we have stuff now that doesn't survive an update before becoming junk.

    People talk about the Titan raid, a very fun raid that I did enough to get 2 Chattering Rings (between 80-100 runs across all my toons). There was some very nice other stuff in Titan (gloves are still good) but that was the holy-grail item, that is why it's run. I'm now considering tossing them to save bank space as they are junk.

    Junk loot equal junk raid that never gets run.

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