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  1. #61
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    wow.. just wow.. so owlbear are destine to be much much weaker then normal? hey if you really hate it, just destroy it, and ignore these thread. you don't want a decent hire doesn't means everyone don't want!

    p.s. what you are saying is basically "i don't want it, so none shall have it"... lol .. what are you? anti animal group?
    First, I don't hate the owlbear -- that is you. I'm pretty satisfied with it. I think an honest reading of the various threads supports that.

    Second, you aren't asking for a decent hire -- you are asking for an exceptional one. I've demonstrated that the heroic owlbear does just fine. You've yet to run a full quest where your character is fully engaged and you are the one complaining about how inadequate the owlbear is.

    PS, I'm anti stupidity. Animals are just fine.

  2. #62
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Second, you aren't asking for a decent hire -- you are asking for an exceptional one. I've demonstrated that the heroic owlbear does just fine. You've yet to run a full quest where your character is fully engaged and you are the one complaining about how inadequate the owlbear is.

    PS, I'm anti stupidity. Animals are just fine.
    you demonstrated what? level 17 hireling doing a level 15 normal, with two level 20 who kill most of the stuff... am sorry you did not prove anything..

    normal hire are exceptional? wow i didn't know that.. so owlbear should always be inferior? this is your point? so asking owlbear to par with any normal hire of it's level is too much to ask for?

    either way, one of us seem to be out of mind..

  3. #63
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    Popped both the owlbear and the panther out in Heroic Elite Devil Assault to see how they would get on compared to each other in an real quest environment.

    They were doing roughly the same number of kills, but the owlbear was needing heals almost constantly. Now fair enough it's elite, and the panther is 3 levels higher, but you're talking 4:1 on the number of scrolls used to heal them through the quest.

    Maybe you need to give it a big transfusion of troll blood, or slap on a vampiric and life shield ankle bracelet.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    Ability score wise, compared to the lower level owlbear and panther:

    Level 25 Owlbear
    STR 91
    DEX 38
    CON 53
    INT 12
    WIS 20
    CHA 14

    Level 17 Owlbear
    STR 61
    DEX 28
    CON 38
    INT 12
    WIS 18
    CHA 14

    Level 20 Panther
    STR 34
    DEX 23
    CON 34
    INT 10
    WIS 19
    CHA 14
    Thanks for the clarity on these. Less vast and mysterious unknowable, more details like this please. Maybe if we could see all of the stats for hirelings in a pet-style character sheet, it would help answer these sort of questions in the future?

  5. #65
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    you demonstrated what? level 17 hireling doing a level 15 normal, with two level 20 who kill most of the stuff... am sorry you did not prove anything..
    You are right, I did not prove anything. I just demonstrated that running a quest like I would with any group -- real life people or hires, it doesn't matter -- has a particular result.

    I'm not trying to test whether one does more damage than the other, whether one takes more damage than the other, whether one attacks faster or slower than the other. IMO these things are largely meaningless.

    I'm only trying to test whether having the hires out lets me do a quest faster and easier than I would have done it without them. That's all that I'm demonstrating. It proves nothing. OTOH, there's nothing to prove.

    If the hire is such a bad thing it should not enable me to do the quest faster and easier. But, it did. So, I conclude that it isn't such a bad thing.

    I'm not sorry that this runs counter to the point you want to make. But, based on my experience your point is invalid.

  6. #66
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    Ability score wise, compared to the lower level owlbear and panther:
    Level 25 Owlbear
    STR 91 DEX 38 CON 53 INT 12 WIS 20 CHA 14

    Level 17 Owlbear
    STR 61 DEX 28 CON 38 INT 12 WIS 18 CHA 14

    Level 20 Panther
    STR 34 DEX 23 CON 34 INT 10 WIS 19 CHA 14

    and base attack damage breaks out like so:
    Level 25 Owlbear: 10d6
    Level 17 Owlbear: 5d6
    Level 20 Panther: 3d6
    Note that the L17 owlbear is stronger (STR 61 v STR 34) and does more damage (5d6 v 3d6). In exchange it seems to take more damage and to need more healing.

    Somehow that seems alright to me. It explains why the owlbear out killed the panther in heroic quests. It also explains why the owlbear used up more healing effort when others tested it.

    I'll restate -- maybe there's nothing wrong except the way we are using the creature.

  7. #67
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Note that the L17 owlbear is stronger (STR 61 v STR 34) and does more damage (5d6 v 3d6). In exchange it seems to take more damage and to need more healing.

    Somehow that seems alright to me. It explains why the owlbear out killed the panther in heroic quests. It also explains why the owlbear used up more healing effort when others tested it.

    I'll restate -- maybe there's nothing wrong except the way we are using the creature.
    am not sure about it.. because the hireling of same level sorta have the similar amount of health.

    you can check the level 17 hire i use for test.. which have 24 hp less.. if it really only 38 con and are tank build it should have much more hp..

    so either that stats is incorrect, which will be fixed.. or they might miss some basic stats....


    as you can see.. the normal level 17 hire have 696 health.. the level 17 owlbear have 714 health.. so owlbear have 18 more health then normal 17 fighter hire..

    so either they mess some "gear" for the owlbear.. or the standard hire have 36 con..


    p.s. also my level 25 druid's dog have more health then this epic owlbear.. and deal way more damage, tanky too... ill make a screen shot for it..







    ok here is my druid's dog


    it have 47 con and 1129 health.. the owl bear have 1215 health

    so turn out the bear have 86 more health then my level 25 dog.. that means owlbear have 6~8 more con then my dog.. and that means 54 con.. which doesn't match the data shows above..
    Last edited by burningwind; 05-26-2013 at 03:54 AM.

  8. #68
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Note some things. For example, the stats are odd on the owlbear's STR.

    The panther has "gear" that boosts its stats. This is suggested in the wiki and in various threads.

    The same is probably true for the owlbear. Again, as example I can buff barkskin on the owlbear but not the panther. This isn't stats but it suggests the panther has some item giving natural armor but the owlbear doesn't.

    So, just because the raw stats show a certain STR or CON that doesn't really tell us what the actual, adjusted numbers are.

  9. #69
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Just on the heroic owlbear:

    Based on L17 it should have 170 hit points from 17 fighter levels and 238 hitpoints from CON. Yet it has another 306 hitpoints.

    Some of these can be vitality, the standard +30 given all starting characters, some sort of false life and maybe the toughness feat. But, even with all of that it would only account for another 100 hp or so.

    This suggests that there are "items" on the owlbear boosting its hitpoints. It is also likely that it isn't using a d10 per level for HP.

    But, all told there's little doubt that even Tolero's post doesn't really explain the owlbears or their abilities.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post

    so either they mess some "gear" for the owlbear.. or the standard hire have 36 con..


    p.s. also my level 25 druid's dog have more health then this epic owlbear.. and deal way more damage, tanky too... ill make a screen shot for it..







    ok here is my druid's dog


    it have 47 con and 1129 health.. the owl bear have 1215 health

    so turn out the bear have 86 more health then my level 25 dog.. that means owlbear have 6~8 more con then my dog.. and that means 54 con.. which doesn't match the data shows above..

    Hey Burning, if you feel like it, would you mind running Murder by Night and see how long it takes your dog (unbuffed without silver DR breaker) to beat down the first (CR 31) wolf knight? I tried my artificer dog against it (L25, S 41, C 41, HP 1041, AC 67 FORT 100%) and it got smoked in less than 30 seconds without healing. With healing my arti dog could barely do any damage to the wolf knight. I'm curious how a druid dog would fare.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeichen-thest View Post
    Fact, no one is buying this epic upgrade for anything more than the Owlbear, the other stuff is just sugar coating.
    The mains shtick for me to buy the legendary upgrade was the skill tomes and the dragon. I don't give a copper for the owlbears. I see them as an additional bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    also barb do not get intim skill..
    Intimidate IS a Barbarian skill. Heck, Barbarians even have an enhancement that made intimidated mobs shaken!
    Main: Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist [<o>]

    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma

    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    If you are only buying the upgrade for the owlbear then you deserve to be disappointed.
    In the middle of your personal attack, you accidentally make a good point. I haven't bought anything yet, I'm considering IF I should buy it and the hireling is one of my primary considerations IF I should buy it.

    So in essence, you've thrown in the towel and granted that the owlbear as is... isn't a good reason to buy the expansion.

  13. #73
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    Default What do you want?

    Not going to search for the earlier post about hirelings making a quest easier/faster. But, I agree- owlbear makes things easier. I haven't used the lvl25 yet, but have used the lvl 17 in level 21 quests already, along with the panther. Occasionally, the owlbear doesn't follow the group and gets killed. My fault. Otherwise, it does fine. I can now buy a healer from a vendor, and have two more fighters. I don't ever expect hirelings to carry the quest- owlbear and panther do a good job. I can't see the lvl 25 being worse, so if you're debating buying the upgrade, don't let this thread scare you off.

  14. #74
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Hey Burning, if you feel like it, would you mind running Murder by Night and see how long it takes your dog (unbuffed without silver DR breaker) to beat down the first (CR 31) wolf knight? I tried my artificer dog against it (L25, S 41, C 41, HP 1041, AC 67 FORT 100%) and it got smoked in less than 30 seconds without healing. With healing my arti dog could barely do any damage to the wolf knight. I'm curious how a druid dog would fare.
    my dog solo him in 2 min 47 second.. take a while.. with no dr bypassing..(still depend on what type of weapon you give to him..(fmy dog are using grave wraping)

    it live for 1min 13 second without healing(again this depend on armor you give to him

    it take epic owlbear 5min 13 second to kill him...

    so final result are
    druid wolf pet: 2 min 47 second
    owlbear: 5min 13 second

    p.s. some how your epic owlbear take only 4min and 30 second to kill him? are you diong the epic elite cr 31 ones? thats odd.. the number are quite different
    Last edited by burningwind; 05-26-2013 at 11:19 AM.

  15. #75
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    I haven't bought anything yet, I'm considering IF I should buy it and the hireling is one of my primary considerations IF I should buy it.

    So in essence, you've thrown in the towel and granted that the owlbear as is... isn't a good reason to buy the expansion.
    I'm not sure that I've "thrown in the towel" but if the question is "is the eOwlbear worth $40" then I'd have to say no -- then again, IMO it would never be worth that amount of money no matter what they did with it.

    With respect to the ongoing discussion, it has yet to be determined if the eOwlbear actually has a problem. There are so many factors to consider and we don't really know that we're comparing two things that are fundamentally alike.

    I suspect, as I've said elsewhere, that some elements of the owlbears are not working properly. But, because there are so many parts and our comparisons are not really known to be like to like (or even similar to similar) that is just speculation. It could well be that everything is WAI and the owlbears are being used in unrealistic ways (the point I've made about them doing alright in quests as opposed to artificial tests).

    Still, you are absolutely right, I would never have suggested in any case that a person get the added pack just for the owlbears alone -- they'd have to be close to god-mode to be worth $40 on their own. If that is your take away then it is all good.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    As I have posted very often in all these related threads -- for me the creatures are working just fine. Comparing them to other hires is a fruitless endeavor destined to prove nothing.
    Therigar, why don't you look around and take note that you are the only person in this thread so far that believes there is nothing wrong with the epic Owlbear hireling? Also, it is logical for you to maintain your own opinion but illogical to try to tell everyone else that they are wrong for having their own opinion.

    People are expressing their opinions. Stop trying to shut them down because yours disagrees with them.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I suspect, as I've said elsewhere, that some elements of the owlbears are not working properly. But, because there are so many parts and our comparisons are not really known to be like to like (or even similar to similar) that is just speculation. It could well be that everything is WAI and the owlbears are being used in unrealistic ways (the point I've made about them doing alright in quests as opposed to artificial tests).
    The most artificial and vague "test" I've read in any of these threads it the concept that you can measure "easier". For other things, some of the tests did make sense. Measuring DPS and unaided survival does have meaning... it may be impacted by many factors but all of those factors should be reflected in the final number.

    If the owl bear has lower DPS because it is a tank, then the survival number should be longer. Neither the panter nor the owlbear buffs or heals... they don't do traps. Their contributions come down to occupying a controllable party slot, tanking and melee dps.

    For the way I use hirelings, these tests are far closer to the actual usage than "easier". While I don't hireling pike, there are times where I want the hireling to guard this spot. Challenges are an one example of a time when I want the hireling to do something without being babysat.

    I'm still close to 50/50 on buying the legendary upgrade. But if I don't buy the upgrade, I'm not buying the expansion until it goes on sale. Due to the way I play the game (weird times, prone to RL interruptions), it is nice to be able to pull up a hireling in the middle of the quest. If Turbine hadn't messed up the level 3 cleric by making it one BTA rather than one per character... I'd have paid for the starter pack even though I own catacombs already. I'd pay $10 each for account wide (like panther) perm versions of Laura Fay or Brec.

  18. #78
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL View Post
    Therigar, why don't you look around and take note that you are the only person in this thread so far that believes there is nothing wrong with the epic Owlbear hireling? Also, it is logical for you to maintain your own opinion but illogical to try to tell everyone else that they are wrong for having their own opinion.

    People are expressing their opinions. Stop trying to shut them down because yours disagrees with them.
    I don't believe there is nothing wrong with the eOwlbear. Neither do I believe there is something wrong with the eOwlbear. I believe that people's complaints are not legitimized by their testing methods and that we do not know that the eOwlbear is not WAI.

    I can manufacture almost any "test" to show a result that I've already pre-determined to take place. I can compare two or three or even more things that are superficially alike but that are, in reality, vastly different. But, until or unless I know what each thing is actually meant to do I cannot honestly say that one has something wrong with it and that the others do not.

    Is the eOwlbear a fighter? The examine tool says it is. But, does that make it so? After all, Eveningstar cows were squirrels (IIRC) for a long time. Maybe the eOwlbear is a barbarian -- that would fit its HP totals a bit better given the posted CON stats. Maybe its PRR is working, but maybe its AC is 40 and it is getting hit on every attack. Maybe its fortification is 100% but "equipped" gear is reducing it to 75% or even 50%.

    I'm not saying that there's nothing wrong. I'm saying that we don't know that and the testing is biased to prove that point.

    With the heroic owlbear I've run it in quests as a party member and run the quests as I would normally run them. If the hOwlbear is broken it does not show.

    With the eOwlbear I've only run it once and it died. OTOH, everything died including my character. I posted the reason for the deaths and have yet to go back and retry the quest using a slightly different approach. My suspicion is that if I manage aggro better and include some healing that there won't be the problem.

    So, if I quest successfully doesn't that suggest that the creature functions appropriately? Isn't it possible that the perceived problems are really the result of method and use and not really an issue with the creature itself?

    This is what I'm suggesting. If that doesn't fit inside the pre-determined whine that people want to read about in the thread then I'm not sorry about it. If the eOwlbear functions in a group when not set to testing tasks but just run as a group member then what does that say about it?

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I don't believe there is nothing wrong with the eOwlbear. Neither do I believe there is something wrong with the eOwlbear. I believe that people's complaints are not legitimized by their testing methods and that we do not know that the eOwlbear is not WAI.
    This is one of the issues... you seem to be focused on WAI while the rest of the tread could care less what the "as intended" part is... we are much more focused on value/desirability. The raw performance numbers help each of us make that decision far more than philosophical dithering about the unknowability of the dev's great plans or the complexities of game mechanics.

    The devs can build anything they want... I have to decide it is worth it before I buy it. The WAI part was wrapped up once it went live. The only chance for it to again be relevant is if the owlbears are perceived as a poor value then the Dev's can say... wait, it is weaker than we intended. Vice versa, if owlbear is overpowered the same can apply in reverse. Either way, the relevant discussion now is what IS, and the best way to quantify that is with measurable numbers such as DPS or survival time tanking a set enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    This is what I'm suggesting. If that doesn't fit inside the pre-determined whine that people want to read about in the thread then I'm not sorry about it. If the eOwlbear functions in a group when not set to testing tasks but just run as a group member then what does that say about it?
    My paladin with a 1 level arti splash could find uses for the level 1 arti puppy. The fact that the owlbear can "function in a group" has about as much relevance as my level 1 arti puppy being occasionally useful.

  20. #80
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by csivils View Post
    The most artificial and vague "test" I've read in any of these threads it the concept that you can measure "easier". For other things, some of the tests did make sense. Measuring DPS and unaided survival does have meaning... it may be impacted by many factors but all of those factors should be reflected in the final number.

    If the owl bear has lower DPS because it is a tank, then the survival number should be longer. Neither the panter nor the owlbear buffs or heals... they don't do traps. Their contributions come down to occupying a controllable party slot, tanking and melee dps.

    For the way I use hirelings, these tests are far closer to the actual usage than "easier". While I don't hireling pike, there are times where I want the hireling to guard this spot. Challenges are an one example of a time when I want the hireling to do something without being babysat.

    I'm still close to 50/50 on buying the legendary upgrade. But if I don't buy the upgrade, I'm not buying the expansion until it goes on sale. Due to the way I play the game (weird times, prone to RL interruptions), it is nice to be able to pull up a hireling in the middle of the quest. If Turbine hadn't messed up the level 3 cleric by making it one BTA rather than one per character... I'd have paid for the starter pack even though I own catacombs already. I'd pay $10 each for account wide (like panther) perm versions of Laura Fay or Brec.
    Well, certainly just going through a quest and observing that I had trouble or could not do it solo but was able to finish it with the hires may not be the sort of test you like. But, for me, that is the only reason to ever use a hire of any sort. For me the whole purpose of a hire is to enable me to do something that I cannot do solo. After all, if I can solo the quest then what does the hire let me do that I'm not doing already?

    That may not seem like a valid test to you. But, for me, it is the only test that matters.

    I think if you look at the owlbear you will see that it does higher DPS and not lower. Since this thread is about owlbear v panther you should know that categorically the owlbear out DPSs the panther. Anyone claiming otherwise is simply not being honest.

    As you note, if it were a tank and not DPS survivability should be higher. But, as I've been observing, that might not be a very good descriptor of the owlbear at all. Instead it appears to be high DPS (nothing close to character DPS but no hireling is) and the resultant decrease in survivability is Turbine's typical response to balancing characters. Look at barbarian player characters for examples.

    Now, obviously if you and I are using the creatures for different purposes then we might have different expectations and different levels of satisfaction. I use the hires to keep aggro off me so that I can stand off and shoot into combat without pulling a large crowd. I don't expect them to maintain their own health so provide healing support to them. I don't expect them to actually kill anything and count that as a bonus.

    So, for me the measure of a hire's worth is in how much it makes things "easier" on me to get a completion.

    If the eOwlbear plus a healing hire lets me do eElite quests that I cannot solo then it is worthwhile. If it doesn't then it is not. If I can solo eHard BoB but can't complete because hires pull mass aggro then why have the hires out -- soloing gets completions where using hires doesn't.

    So, IMO, the only real measure of a hire's value is in the degree to which they make questing and quest completion easier. FWIW, reading your use of hires suggests that this is actually why you use them as well.

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