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  1. #41
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    Okay, I finally got the Owlbears and checked them out in a few things.

    I have to agree with everyone who says that the PRR doesn't seem to be working. I've ran some quests and wilderness areas with all both Owlbears and the Onyx Panther at the same time. The two Owlbears seem to be taking about the same amount of damage and the Onyx Panther is definitely outlasting both Owlbears. Evasion might explain the Panther outlasting the Owlbears, but I would expect the Epic Owlbear to be receiving less damage than the Heroic Owlbear.

    As for damage, the Owlbears seem to be doing fairly nice damage, but they are slow. This is fine when they go one-on-one with mobs or the Owlbears are working in a group, such as two Owlbears and the Onyx Panther. However, if there are multiple mobs with a single Owlbear running, the slow but steady output from the Owlbear is too slow while the damage the Owlbear takes is too much when in level appropriate quests/areas.

    Cleave and Great Cleave are definitely broken on both Owlbears. The only time I've seen those abilities go into cooldown mode is when I am spamming the button for them. I've not seen either hirling actually use it on their own. Not only do these feats appear to be manually active only, they don't seem to work about 80% of the time on the Epic Owlbear. Since there's no special animation for the cleaves, the easiest way to tell if the cleaves work is to go to Kobold Assault and test it on the mobs there. The Heroic Owlbear cleaved whenever I spammed it, but the Epic Owlbear rarely cleaved when I spammed the buttons. Now for the completely sad part about Cleave, Heroic Owlbear only does 10 damage, which the Epic Owlbear did 16 damage, with one crit for 32 damage and 46 slashing damage. Very, very sad.

    I'm going to still stand by my expectation that these Owlbears should have a Sweeping Strike type attack. Heck, the only Owlbear mob that we've encountered so far does a decent job of knocking players down...and knocking the Heroic Owlbear hireling down.

    After testing out the Owlbears, I'm a bit disappointed by them. IMO, the Panther is superior to both Owlbears. I'm hoping that the Owlbears do get fixed/finished. The Owlbears are diamonds in the rough, I just hope they aren't another Turbine project that is left unfix or semi-working.

  2. #42
    Founder Dorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I will reiterate, I've only used the heroic owlbear and it out performed the panther in all content that I've run with the two of them out. The difference is noticeable enough that I am only using the owlbear in those cases where I choose to have only one out.
    You admit to only using the heroic Owlbear, you are doing yourself and the entire ddo community a disservice by spreading your uninformed information.

    Everyone has been talking about the EPIC (level 25) hireling performance.
    Dorian

  3. #43
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    From all that has been done in testing them I suspect that what others have observed about them is correct -- they are not working properly.

    It may be that I'm not seeing this because I am providing support to them via a hireling favored soul. I am also not doing anything with them other than setting them to act on their own and turning them all loose as I quest.

    So, it seems that observations that the owlbears are not WAI has merit. If that is the case then they will be truly fearsome when the code is fixed since, as I've said, the hOwlbear seems to be outperforming the panther for me already.

  4. #44
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    From all that has been done in testing them I suspect that what others have observed about them is correct -- they are not working properly.

    It may be that I'm not seeing this because I am providing support to them via a hireling favored soul. I am also not doing anything with them other than setting them to act on their own and turning them all loose as I quest.

    So, it seems that observations that the owlbears are not WAI has merit. If that is the case then they will be truly fearsome when the code is fixed since, as I've said, the hOwlbear seems to be outperforming the panther for me already.
    neither of them will outperform a level 20 fighter hire.. if this means fearsome, then all i can say is your toon are not as good as most character were...

  5. #45
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorian View Post
    You admit to only using the heroic Owlbear, you are doing yourself and the entire ddo community a disservice by spreading your uninformed information.

    Everyone has been talking about the EPIC (level 25) hireling performance.
    Wrong. The discussion has involved all three of the creatures, hOwlbear, panther and eOwlbear. It has spread to about 4 threads as people try to spam the forum with the topic.

    But, the hOwlbear doing as well as or better than the panther seems particularly relevant to me since this is not what I would expect from comparing a L17 creature to a L20 creature.

    Of course, I'm aware enough to recognize that the two of them cannot be compared directly in any case since they do not have identical levels, classes and abilities. Thus, I continue to point out that the only real comparison comes at the end of a quest when we can ask, "Did they make finishing easier or harder?"

    My experience is that they make it easier and the hOwlbear is slightly outperforming the panther. But, in all of the quests my character is outperforming both.

    That is an important caveat. I'm not piking and counting on the creatures to win the encounters for me. Instead, I'm using them to engage in melee while my rogue/artificer/druid mish-mash lays down suppressive fire and spams AoE spells.

    In other words, I'm actively engaged in the quest and I'm letting the two of them (plus fvs hire) fend for themselves.

    Maybe we're having different results because I'm just using the creatures and not intentionally trying to abuse them.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    neither of them will outperform a level 20 fighter hire.. if this means fearsome, then all i can say is your toon are not as good as most character were...
    Actually eOwlbear does significantly more damage than a L20 melee hire (maybe not significantly more than a L20 barb) and more than the panther as I posted earlier. So your statement is categorically incorrect.


    eOwlbear is doing about 20-30% less damage than Sledge (L22 Barb hire) when he's raged. Sledge still seems to take damage at the same rate. But Sledge requires repair spells to heal.


    eOwlbear is doing approximately the same amount of damage (250s for crits) as Rovegar (L21 fighter hire). Rovegar can take a lot more punishment though. I let a Stormsworn Earthcaller beat on him for five minutes and the only damage he was taking was from spells. Owlbear took physical damage almost every swing (not sure how much since my combat log stopped displaying physical damage on the hire -weird).

  7. #47
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningwind View Post
    neither of them will outperform a level 20 fighter hire.. if this means fearsome, then all i can say is your toon are not as good as most character were...
    I appreciate how, when you find someone in disagreement with you, you find it necessary to attack them.

    I've found that making personal attacks is a good indicator that the other person is losing on the real debate.

    It has already been pointed out the huge flaws in your testing methodology. Perhaps you could address those issues rather than speculating about the nature of my character.

    BTW, the character is named Doofus the Village Idiot. He is a rogue 2/artificer 6/druid X build that is, without question, a multiclass that no normal person would run. The rogue/artificer levels let me have an easy button to get thru a druid life that I don't want to run in a class I don't like.

    So, pretty much everything is better than Doofus.

    But, my point about fearsome was this: If the owlbears are holding their own when not subject to artificial constraints but treated as part of a group with group buff, heals, etc. AND if they are in fact not WAI then they will be all that and more when they really do WAI.

    Lastly, at least I'll say this about Doofus -- he doesn't pike. He may not contribute much, but he's always right there giving all he's got to get the quest done.

    No apology if that isn't uber enough for you.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    A
    eOwlbear is doing approximately the same amount of damage (250s for crits) as Rovegar (L21 fighter hire). Rovegar can take a lot more punishment though. I let a Stormsworn Earthcaller beat on him for five minutes and the only damage he was taking was from spells. Owlbear took physical damage almost every swing (not sure how much since my combat log stopped displaying physical damage on the hire -weird).
    This is my point... the level 21 hireling that can be bought for a nominal amount of in-game gold... and out performs the level 25 Owlbear in every circumstance.

    How the heck is Rovegar taking "a lot more punishment" with the Owlbear having 200 PRR?
    Dorian

  9. #49
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Actually eOwlbear does significantly more damage than a L20 melee hire (maybe not significantly more than a L20 barb) and more than the panther as I posted earlier. So your statement is categorically incorrect.


    eOwlbear is doing about 20-30% less damage than Sledge (L22 Barb hire) when he's raged. Sledge still seems to take damage at the same rate. But Sledge requires repair spells to heal.


    eOwlbear is doing approximately the same amount of damage (250s for crits) as Rovegar (L21 fighter hire). Rovegar can take a lot more punishment though. I let a Stormsworn Earthcaller beat on him for five minutes and the only damage he was taking was from spells. Owlbear took physical damage almost every swing (not sure how much since my combat log stopped displaying physical damage on the hire -weird).
    so in your statement barb hire are inferior compare to fight hire? owlbear is a fighter hire, if its dps is inferior then hireling four level below him, and not half as tanky then perhaps my theory have already been proved.




    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I appreciate how, when you find someone in disagreement with you, you find it necessary to attack them.

    I've found that making personal attacks is a good indicator that the other person is losing on the real debate.

    It has already been pointed out the huge flaws in your testing methodology. Perhaps you could address those issues rather than speculating about the nature of my character.

    BTW, the character is named Doofus the Village Idiot. He is a rogue 2/artificer 6/druid X build that is, without question, a multiclass that no normal person would run. The rogue/artificer levels let me have an easy button to get thru a druid life that I don't want to run in a class I don't like.

    So, pretty much everything is better than Doofus.

    But, my point about fearsome was this: If the owlbears are holding their own when not subject to artificial constraints but treated as part of a group with group buff, heals, etc. AND if they are in fact not WAI then they will be all that and more when they really do WAI.

    Lastly, at least I'll say this about Doofus -- he doesn't pike. He may not contribute much, but he's always right there giving all he's got to get the quest done.

    No apology if that isn't uber enough for you.
    if that qualify for personal attack, then you are only proven that you were attacking all this times. if you think a level 25 hire who is not as strong as a level 20 hire will become fearful with 200 prr then perhaps you have already proven my statement
    Last edited by burningwind; 05-25-2013 at 10:14 PM.

  10. #50
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    Default AI issues Owlbear

    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    Two or three things on this.

    1. Epic areas the panther is a total waste of space. It is absolutely an endangered species. If I'm running in eGianthold I run solo or with a real group and never with hirelings of any type. So, I have a hard time imagining the eOwlbear as being inferior to the panther.

    2. Scaling with the panther is intended to be less than with other hirelings. This is supposed to be true of all gold seal hirelings. I can tell you categorically that from my experience the hOwlbear brings enough to make it worthwhile.

    3. I'm not impressed that others are not impressed (or you either for that matter). The forums are always full of people with something to whine about and they turn hostile whenever there is a different POV. Moreover, opinions are like anal openings, everyone has them and they're usually full of sh.... So, unless there is something factual to present the opinions of people doesn't really sway me.

    I will reiterate, I've only used the heroic owlbear and it out performed the panther in all content that I've run with the two of them out. The difference is noticeable enough that I am only using the owlbear in those cases where I choose to have only one out.

    I do not have the panther so cannot comment on differences. I agree with Therigar on observations. So far, lvl 17 Owlbear is doing ok. It is a meat shield doing ok damage. I have augment summons feat which help. The main issue with the OB is that it is very, very glitch prone. By this I mean it will teleport from the floor of a room to you when your on a crate right next too it. It also becomes unable to join you in fights, will just stay at doorway entrance and not come in, despite the combat mode being used. All of the above is especially noticeable in Lords of Dust quest. First few fights, OK. Then it becomes glitched and start teleporting around and for example, not enter the first altar room or any room after that w/o being called to me. I suspect there are some issues here which need to be addressed. I tend to solo a lot with hirelings on hard and even elite difficulties, so have some experience with what is normal, hireling issues and what is not.

  11. #51
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salmagnus View Post
    I do not have the panther so cannot comment on differences. I agree with Therigar on observations. So far, lvl 17 Owlbear is doing ok. It is a meat shield doing ok damage. I have augment summons feat which help. The main issue with the OB is that it is very, very glitch prone. By this I mean it will teleport from the floor of a room to you when your on a crate right next too it. It also becomes unable to join you in fights, will just stay at doorway entrance and not come in, despite the combat mode being used. All of the above is especially noticeable in Lords of Dust quest. First few fights, OK. Then it becomes glitched and start teleporting around and for example, not enter the first altar room or any room after that w/o being called to me. I suspect there are some issues here which need to be addressed. I tend to solo a lot with hirelings on hard and even elite difficulties, so have some experience with what is normal, hireling issues and what is not.
    am really confusing, there are type of people on forum which i couldn't understand

    the first type of person, are the ones who demand scientific result, demand hundred hours of testing on something pointless. we are just simple player, we are not hired by turbine~~ all we need to do is simply prove that owlbear need improvement, how to improve, how much to improve is the decision of turbine.

    the second type of person, is the ones who saying it is ok. almost as if they don't want an hireling that match the might of it's level. owlbear are much weaker then other hireling around their level, especially the fighters. which is why it need improvement to make it a viable hire. if turbine do decide to improve them, i suggest turbine keep these olds one for those people who are saying they are ok, they pull their own weight. while they are much worsen then any hire at their level.

    p.s. if you enjoy these owlbear as they are, you may submit a ticket to turbine demand for your account to keep the current version after they improve it. or you can continue arguing owlbear are fine, so no one get a useful hireling..(making them match their level will only cause more people to buy this expansion, therefor turbine make more money.. and that means more/better content which will attract more player.. which will lead to better game population.. wonder why people are against the change..)

  12. #52
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    The problem that I have is that the Epic Owlbear is suppose to have a 96 str. If that were the case, he should be doing major damage which he isn't. His attacks are no stronger than a barb unraged with 50str. As stated the cleaves and great cleaves don't work naturally.

    I cannot imagine anyone buying the upgrade for anything but this owlbear. There is nothing in it that is so unique to merit 40 dollars.

    If you compare the 90 dollars for pre order MOTU and this, you definitely got a lot more before. All the free packs, lesser tome of learning on every tome and 1 greater per toon, is definitely better than epic tome. Also we got those xp stones.

    The iconic classes seem to be a novelty. Though I will try them all out eventually, they are nothing more than a distraction from my main toons. If they ever get the ability to TR or can be Trd into, then perhaps interesting but for those completionists out there 4 more lives would not be fun.

    I think that the Epic Owlbear needs to be examined by the devs properly and let us know for certain. It bothers me how pages on pages of discussions get ignored by devs.

  13. #53
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm more stupid than others but it seems to me that comparing a creature using natural weapons (claws/beak) to an NPC using magical weapons isn't entirely fair.

    A 96 STR is +23 damage over a 50 STR. That 23 damage can come easily from weapon damage through x[W] multipliers, inherent weapon bonuses, elemental/alignment/bane/burst modifiers, etc.

    Simplistic comparisons are only meaningful when the weapons being compared are precisely the same.

    They are not. And, let's not forget things like critical threat ranges and crit multipliers. If the NPC is on a higher threat range weapon with a larger multiplier its crits will easily keep pace with the higher STR creature.

    What is more, attack animations and attack speed are hugely important. My monk doesn't do very much damage on a per hit basis but with the speed of attack, double strike, off-hand damage procs and so on quickly outpaces much stronger characters in terms of overall damage.

    The same likely holds true for the 50 STR NPC hire compared to the 96 STR owlbear.

    Now, does this make the owlbear better or worse than the hire? I don't know. What I do know is that I can spend Turbine points for gold seal hires and, over time, end up spending way more than I spent on the pre-order. I also know that I cannot summon multiple normal hires like I can with gold seal hires -- making the utility of the creatures quite high if I am restricting myself only to normal hires in quests.

    IMO the discussion is better served by observing whether the various characteristics of the owlbear are functioning properly. Does the PRR work? Is the damage consistent with the STR and number of damage dice? Do Cleave and Great Cleave work, do you have to spam them intentionally or does the owlbear use them on their own when there are multiple mobs?

    But, the whining about spending too much money on an owlbear is just sour grapes. You didn't buy an owlbear. You bought a pre-order on an expansion and got some bonus items in return for the pre-order -- bonus items that others won't have. Nobody forced you to buy -- only your individual greed to be among the first and to have what others might not get.

    As I have posted very often in all these related threads -- for me the creatures are working just fine. Comparing them to other hires is a fruitless endeavor destined to prove nothing.
    Last edited by Therigar; 05-26-2013 at 12:55 AM.

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    Personally, I don't understand your agenda or why you are skulking all these threads. You are adding nothing to the argument except to argue.

    Fact, this is not a part of the pre order, this is an additional package that costs 40dollars above the pre order update.
    Fact, no one is buying this epic upgrade for anything more than the Owlbear, the other stuff is just sugar coating.
    Fact, it is sold as a separate upgrade to the pre-order to circumvent issues when the update goes on sale for 50% off and this doesn't.
    Fact, all of your comparisons are with the heroic whereas everyone else is more concerned with the Epic version.

    The panther is cool and I summon it still from time to time but don't expect much from it than some scaling and possible aggro management. It isn't the most useful thing but not bad in the epic content. So I would expect the lvl 24 owlbear to be slightly better. Its DPS isnt much better than the panther if better at all.


    The owlbear is the most awesome looking hireling that anyone could want. It's stats should make it beyond tough, to be able to handle the epic content for which it was intended.

    If I or others are to buy this extra pack, then we want to make sure that it is viable, working WAI and worth the money.

    So get on board with the argument or troll some other threads.

  15. #55
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeichen-thest View Post
    So get on board with the argument or troll some other threads.
    No.

    I'm not getting on board with the argument because it has no merit. Disagreeing with people is not trolling. Nice effort though.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeichen-thest View Post
    Fact, this is not a part of the pre order, this is an additional package that costs 40dollars above the pre order update.
    Fact, no one is buying this epic upgrade for anything more than the Owlbear, the other stuff is just sugar coating.
    Fact, it is sold as a separate upgrade to the pre-order to circumvent issues when the update goes on sale for 50% off and this doesn't.
    Fact, all of your comparisons are with the heroic whereas everyone else is more concerned with the Epic version.
    Nobody made you buy the additional package.

    If you are only buying the upgrade for the owlbear then you deserve to be disappointed. I bought the upgrade for all the other things and did not even know that I was getting an epic owlbear in the package. So the assertion that no one is buying for any reason other than the owlbear is false.

    Why it is a separate upgrade isn't really known -- it just is.

    Everyone means you and those agreeing with you -- it does not mean everyone. But, more importantly, there are many things to look at with both versions of the owlbear that go beyond the simplistic reasoning most are using.

    Right now I'd be much more interested in knowing these things about all of the creatures and hirelings that have been discussed: AC, DR, PRR, dodge, ghostly, blur, evasion, stats, inherent stat boosts, equipment stat boosts, damage type, damage amount, weapon threat range, crit mulitiplier, double-strike....

    It takes a lot to make a character -- PC, NPC, creature. And, the current method of calculating hits and damage mitigation means that high numbers in some areas may be entirely meaningless if the other areas are low.

    Now, if pointing those things out is trolling then I'll just troll some more. But, I'm not going to just "get on board" simply because you and a subset of the forum wants to whine about what they bought.

  16. #56
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    No.
    If you are only buying the upgrade for the owlbear then you deserve to be disappointed.
    wow.. just wow.. so owlbear are destine to be much much weaker then normal? hey if you really hate it, just destroy it, and ignore these thread. you don't want a decent hire doesn't means everyone don't want!

    p.s. what you are saying is basically "i don't want it, so none shall have it"... lol .. what are you? anti animal group?
    Last edited by burningwind; 05-26-2013 at 02:00 AM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post

    If you are only buying the upgrade for the owlbear then you deserve to be disappointed. I bought the upgrade for all the other things and did not even know that I was getting an epic owlbear in the package. So the assertion that no one is buying for any reason other than the owlbear is false..
    I agree. I did not by the collector's pack solely for the bugbear. I would never spend 4000 tps on any hireling. Nothing would live up to my expectations of that price tag.


    That said, I think the eowlbear should be more survivable than the L20 panther, which it is not, and it should do more damage than a L21 fighter hireling, which it does not.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeichen-thest View Post

    The panther is cool and I summon it still from time to time but don't expect much from it than some scaling and possible aggro management. It isn't the most useful thing but not bad in the epic content. So I would expect the lvl 24 owlbear to be slightly better. Its DPS isnt much better than the panther if better at all.

    .
    The damage output of the owlbear is significantly better than the panther. At least 70%-100% better. This has been demonstrated. The survivability is what really needs work.

  19. #59
    Community Member Therigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    The damage output of the owlbear is significantly better than the panther. At least 70%-100% better. This has been demonstrated. The survivability is what really needs work.
    I'll reiterate, it may be an issue of use.

    The owlbear isn't really a fighter. Its AC, PRR, etc. are not on par with fighters. Maybe we should stop using it as one.

    Next, creatures using natural weapons are likely never going to out damage humanoids using weapons. That is an inherent characteristic of D&D and part of DDO in most cases. Expecting equivalency is probably misplaced. There's nothing inherently wrong with the L25 owlbear doing roughly the same damage as a L21 humanoid hire.

    Lastly, the owlbear is survivable if treated like a barbarian. It is squishy, so heal it. It typically lasts through fights. But, it has no inherent self healing. So, stop expecting it to take less damage and start taking care of it.

  20. #60
    Community Member burningwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therigar View Post
    I'll reiterate, it may be an issue of use.

    The owlbear isn't really a fighter. Its AC, PRR, etc. are not on par with fighters. Maybe we should stop using it as one.

    Next, creatures using natural weapons are likely never going to out damage humanoids using weapons. That is an inherent characteristic of D&D and part of DDO in most cases. Expecting equivalency is probably misplaced. There's nothing inherently wrong with the L25 owlbear doing roughly the same damage as a L21 humanoid hire.

    Lastly, the owlbear is survivable if treated like a barbarian. It is squishy, so heal it. It typically lasts through fights. But, it has no inherent self healing. So, stop expecting it to take less damage and start taking care of it.
    it doesn't par with barb either.. the damage is way too low to be a barb. also barb do not get intim skill.. it take too much sp to heal him, which is one of the reason why i don't use them when solo eh....

    p.s. these owlbear do tend to pull unwant agro sometime.. and hire are not so smart.. so it is a hire that squish like barb hireling, melee dps like fvs hireling and have no casting ability...from the sound this hireling fail epic

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